For those who believe that only Christians go to heaven...

[challupa]

And we wonder why this world is so unhealthy for survival.:slap::thud:

 

[roli]

]

roli what on earth are you talking about, who have I "accused"? I have not said anything about what I think of Christ.

I don't think Christians see hell as rehabilitation. They see it as a deserved punishment. Deserved because you didn't choose the right religion.

Could you read this quote of yours and tell me if you've made an accusation !
..and I did'nt say you towards Christ.
I said Christ set the plan of salvation,the consequences,your eternal suffering, and your way to avoid it....... your fate is in him.Blame him not the christians.

Now why are you even replying to this thread? All you do is pop in, disagree, say what you believe without anything to back it up and then don't respond any more. That's all you do in a lot of threads. If you have nothing at all to back up your argument then why even reply to the thread?

Listen I'll play the game as I see fit, but for your own knowledge, I have a pretty active life and can't possibly spend as much time on this forum as you can.
I'm happy for you that you can devote so much of your life into this forum, I hope it satisfies you

You said that you believe that everyone on the planet has an equal chance to become a Christian. Now I would like to ask you, if everyone gets an equal chance, why is 80% of the Indian population Hindu, 95%+ of the Saudi Arabian population Muslim, and ~80% of the American population Christian? Are you saying that these numbers are just complete coincidences? Yes or no

Getting an equal chance at turning to the God of creation does not reflect on what a person continues to believe.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Nobody is threatening you, it's God's promise,"the soul that sins will certainly perish"
He does say it quite often and gives ample opportunity to turn to God for mercy and forgiveness.

Sounds like a threat to me. "do this, or else"

Your god however seems to offer neither, mercy or forgiveness,because the irony is, he's your own creation.
You make him to be everything you want him to be and that which you don't want him to be, which BTW is based on your own conditions, he's a convenient god of sorts.... is'nt he.You make him to be all good and no wrath or vegence or judgment, just a huggy and kissy,feel good kind of god,it's soothing just talking about it.
Don't feel bad, your not alone ,many have created a god that suits their own likes or dislikes, making him to be a very non confrontational, seeker sensitive,loving being
Kind of like a pocket god to suit your own personal likes and dislikes.

There's a commonly coined phrase among skeptics and unbelievers,it goes like this!
My god is a loving god and does'nt send people to hell ,my god would'nt say or do, this or that. my god is this or that.

Not "my god", I do not claim to own God. And your understanding of Deism is limited.
I believe God is interpersonal. I have come to this conclusion using Science, Reason, and Common Sense. My own conditions do not come into play. I do not claim God is good, "huggy kissy", loving or sensitive. God is beyond understanding. I give God no personal attributes.
That is more common in the myth based religions.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Could you read this quote of yours and tell me if you've made an accusation !

I see no accusation, please point it out. First I said that hell is not rehabilitation, which it is most definitely not, do you agree? Then I said that non-believers deserve hell, do you agree? Then I said that they deserve it because they are non-believers. All I did was merely point out some facts of Christianity, no accusation.

..and I did'nt say you towards Christ.
I said Christ set the plan of salvation,the consequences,your eternal suffering, and your way to avoid it....... your fate is in him.Blame him not the christians.

I not blaming any Christians for anything. I'm just confronting them about their contradicting beliefs.

Listen I'll play the game as I see fit, but for your own knowledge, I have a pretty active life and can't possibly spend as much time on this forum as you can.
I'm happy for you that you can devote so much of your life into this forum, I hope it satisfies you

I also have a pretty active life. Having an average of 2.5 posts per day means that I devote SO MUCH of my life to this forum doesn't it? But seriously, whenever I make a thread I want a discussion. All you do is pop in, say you disagree, but you don't know why, and you don't know how it makes sense, then you dont reply.

Getting an equal chance at turning to the God of creation does not reflect on what a person continues to believe.

roli are you actually saying that getting an equal chance at becoming Christian is not reflected in whether or not people become Christian? Please clarify, because this is just insane. If the chance of becoming Christian is the same for everyone and every country then the percentage of Christians in the USA and India would be EXACTLY THE SAME.

Are you saying that the fact that the VAST majority of people follow the main religion of their country is just a coincidence? Yes or no, simple question, please answer.

*awaits a response that has absolutely nothing to do with the question, with 5 or 6 bible quotes thrown in, or no response at all*

 

[Muffled]

No, I do not "get it". I punish my children so that they will learn. But "eternal Hell" is not a punishment, it is a threat. After you are cast into hell, what is learned that can make you better?

BTW Hell is off topic. It isn't necessarily either or until the final judgement.

The whole concept of a threat is to teach that there are severe consequences for bad actions. What kind of a loving parent would say to his child "go beat up your sister, I highly approve." Yet somehow you think that God would be loving if He said "go ahead, do what ever you want, I won't hold you accountable for it."

Well, in the parable of the rich man in Hell and Lazarus the beggar in Heaven, the rich man learned that he doesn't like Hell. I don't know why a sane person would want to go there.

 

[challupa]

BTW Hell is off topic. It isn't necessarily either or until the final judgement.

The whole concept of a threat is to teach that there are severe consequences for bad actions. What kind of a loving parent would say to his child "go beat up your sister, I highly approve." Yet somehow you think that God would be loving if He said "go ahead, do what ever you want, I won't hold you accountable for it."

Well, in the parable of the rich man in Hell and Lazarus the beggar in Heaven, the rich man learned that he doesn't like Hell. I don't know why a sane person would want to go there.

It seems that it is you that cannot tolerate a concept that does not include hell because you cannot tolerate a concept that does not have a final justice for all those "bad" people that you want God to promise to "punish". That is a human need, not the needs of a diety.

 

[Draka]

BTW Hell is off topic. It isn't necessarily either or until the final judgement.

The whole concept of a threat is to teach that there are severe consequences for bad actions. What kind of a loving parent would say to his child "go beat up your sister, I highly approve." Yet somehow you think that God would be loving if He said "go ahead, do what ever you want, I won't hold you accountable for it."

Well, in the parable of the rich man in Hell and Lazarus the beggar in Heaven, the rich man learned that he doesn't like Hell. I don't know why a sane person would want to go there.

Do you lock your child up in their room for the rest of their life if they disobey you? Or do you take appropriate discipline action such as timeout and groundings and such so as to TEACH them that what they did was wrong so that they may continue on in life and not make the same mistakes?

Personally, I don't know why a sane person would want to believe in the cruel and sadistic version of god that you do.

 

[Muffled]

It seems that it is you that cannot tolerate a concept that does not include hell because you cannot tolerate a concept that does not have a final justice for all those "bad" people that you want God to promise to "punish". That is a human need, not the needs of a diety.

It is so gracious of you to tell God what He needs. However God has spoken and His need is for justice to be done. My need and most people's need is for vengeance not justice but God reserves vengeance for Himself and requires justice from us.

You make a lot of presumptions. I believe in Hell because it is true that it exists. I don't want anyone to go there and God doesn't want them to go there either but many will just the same.

 

[Muffled]

Do you lock your child up in their room for the rest of their life if they disobey you? Or do you take appropriate discipline action such as timeout and groundings and such so as to TEACH them that what they did was wrong so that they may continue on in life and not make the same mistakes?

Personally, I don't know why a sane person would want to believe in the cruel and sadistic version of god that you do.

This is too funny: timeout and grounding are simply milder forms of locking a child in a closet. The concept is the same, imprisonment.

I don't believe in a cruel and sadistic God and you can't come up with evidence that He is. BTW, what kind of person attacks a good God by making scurrilous comments about Him?

 

[tumbleweed41]

I don't believe in a cruel and sadistic God and you can't come up with evidence that He is. BTW, what kind of person attacks a good God by making scurrilous comments about Him?

Genesis 6:7- Kills off all but two of each animal, and every human but Noahs family.
Genesis 12:17-Plagues Egypt for Sarai's lies.
Exodus 7:4 -Hardens the heart of Pharaoh, thus ensuring the plagues.
Exodus Chapters 9-12- Plagues Egypt, all are affected, even the innocent.
Exodus 12:29- God kills all the Egyptian firstborn, innocent children die.
Exodus 15:3 "The LORD is a man of war, the Lord is his name."
Leviticus- Proscribes the death sentence for many sins, including adultery and talking back to your parents.
Jeremiah 18:11 God admits to being a source of evil.
Lamentations 4:4 God punishes Israel by allowing innocent babies to starve.
Nahum 3:10 God punished Nineveh by enslaving the people and smashing the little children in the streets.
Zephaniah 3:6 God destroyed entire cities, killing all the inhabitants. Children are not spared.

Mathew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Draka]

This is too funny: timeout and grounding are simply milder forms of locking a child in a closet. The concept is the same, imprisonment.

How is it funny? Timeout and grounding are for limited times and they aren't torturous like hell is. Hell is a forever torture...not any kind of learning going on there. No rehabilitation. No lessons to be learned. It's eternal torture plain and simple.

I don't believe in a cruel and sadistic God and you can't come up with evidence that He is.

tumbleweed has already hit just a little bit of the evidence you seem to be missing.

BTW, what kind of person attacks a good God by making scurrilous comments about Him?

I don't know, as I didn't make scurrilous comments about a good god. What kind of person makes out that a cruel and torturing and vindictive god is "good"?

 

[Storm]

This is too funny: timeout and grounding are simply milder forms of locking a child in a closet. The concept is the same, imprisonment.

No. They aren't. Discipline is not abuse, and abuse is not discipline.

 

[challupa]

It is so gracious of you to tell God what He needs. However God has spoken and His need is for justice to be done. My need and most people's need is for vengeance not justice but God reserves vengeance for Himself and requires justice from us.

You make a lot of presumptions. I believe in Hell because it is true that it exists. I don't want anyone to go there and God doesn't want them to go there either but many will just the same.

So tell me then. If God doesn't want anyone going to hell, and God is all powerful, how can God not get what he wants. How do you know that you have been told the truth about what God wants. Is it not presumtious of you to say you know for sure there is a hell and you know what God wants. It is just possible there is many things we don't know about God because we've been fed erroneous information. We very likely need to redefine God because if he is all loving, all merciful and all powerful, there should be absolutely nothing he needs and no way he couldn't get what he needs if he needs anything, which by the way I don't think he does. I think it is the clergy down through the ages that have needed something, not God.

 

[Muffled]

So tell me then. If God doesn't want anyone going to hell, and God is all powerful, how can God not get what he wants. How do you know that you have been told the truth about what God wants. Is it not presumtious of you to say you know for sure there is a hell and you know what God wants. It is just possible there is many things we don't know about God because we've been fed erroneous information. We very likely need to redefine God because if he is all loving, all merciful and all powerful, there should be absolutely nothing he needs and no way he couldn't get what he needs if he needs anything, which by the way I don't think he does. I think it is the clergy down through the ages that have needed something, not God.

God speaks the truth to those who seek it.

I have presumed nothing. I accept what God has said.

We don't define God, He defines Himself.

God lets us know what we need to know.

God has conflicting desires. He wants us to have free choice but He also wants us to choose Him. He can (and does) take away free will removing evil from the conscousness of men but He would prefer that people come to Him by choice. However for those who love evil he maintains that free choice but with the consequences that go with it.

 

[Muffled]

How is it funny? Timeout and grounding are for limited times and they aren't torturous like hell is. Hell is a forever torture...not any kind of learning going on there. No rehabilitation. No lessons to be learned. It's eternal torture plain and simple.


tumbleweed has already hit just a little bit of the evidence you seem to be missing.

I don't know, as I didn't make scurrilous comments about a good god. What kind of person makes out that a cruel and torturing and vindictive god is "good"?

I never said that it was. Hell exists as long as the world exists. Hell is eternal in the sense that it does not have time. We don't have a word for timelessness so we use the word eternal for it. Are those going to Hell destined to stay there forever? I don't think we know. However there are some clues. The fact is that there are people in this world who love evil. Where did they come from. Obviously they didn't come from Heaven. It may not be too wild a speculation to believe that they emerged from Hell.

There is this information about Satan:

Rev 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

If Satan can be let out of Hell, certainly his minions can be also.

 

[challupa]

God speaks the truth to those who seek it.

I have presumed nothing. I accept what God has said.

We don't define God, He defines Himself.

God lets us know what we need to know.

God has conflicting desires. He wants us to have free choice but He also wants us to choose Him. He can (and does) take away free will removing evil from the conscousness of men but He would prefer that people come to Him by choice. However for those who love evil he maintains that free choice but with the consequences that go with it.

God does not have conflicting desires. Humans created an image of God that has conflicting desires. Gods don't give free will and then say they need something. It makes no sense.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I don't believe in a cruel and sadistic God and you can't come up with evidence that He is. BTW, what kind of person attacks a good God by making scurrilous comments about Him?

Muffled, you have not addressed my response to your challenge to find evidence of a cruel and sadistic God.

For your benefit, I will repost.

Genesis 6:7- Kills off all but two of each animal, and every human but Noahs family.
Genesis 12:17-Plagues Egypt for Sarai's lies.
Exodus 7:4 -Hardens the heart of Pharaoh, thus ensuring the plagues.
Exodus Chapters 9-12- Plagues Egypt, all are affected, even the innocent.
Exodus 12:29- God kills all the Egyptian firstborn, innocent children die.
Exodus 15:3 "The LORD is a man of war, the Lord is his name."
Leviticus- Proscribes the death sentence for many sins, including adultery and talking back to your parents.
Jeremiah 18:11 God admits to being a source of evil.
Lamentations 4:4 God punishes Israel by allowing innocent babies to starve.
Nahum 3:10 God punished Nineveh by enslaving the people and smashing the little children in the streets.
Zephaniah 3:6 God destroyed entire cities, killing all the inhabitants. Children are not spared.

 

[Draka]

I never said that it was. Hell exists as long as the world exists. Hell is eternal in the sense that it does not have time. We don't have a word for timelessness so we use the word eternal for it. Are those going to Hell destined to stay there forever? I don't think we know. However there are some clues. The fact is that there are people in this world who love evil. Where did they come from. Obviously they didn't come from Heaven. It may not be too wild a speculation to believe that they emerged from Hell.

There is this information about Satan:

Rev 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

If Satan can be let out of Hell, certainly his minions can be also.

So, in your illustrious opinion, am I from hell? I mean, obviously you think that those who deny Christ are evil in some way. So since I deny Christ and the holy ghost and all that stuff and think it is all just as mythology as any other myth out there, am I evil? Am I from hell? Do tell. Give it to me honestly if you can even bring yourself to do so.

And you totally ignored my other points didn't you? You wanted evidence and I pointed out that tumbleweed gave you that and you ignored both him and I. You asked me what kind of person would make scurrilous comments about a "good god" and I explained that I wouldn't know as I didn't, but I wanted to know what kind of person says that a cruel and vindictive god is "good". Care to respond to any of that?

 

[Draka]

Oh, and btw Muffled, may I just say, I find the fact that someone who obviously believes that only Christians go to heaven uses the Pagan Wheel of the Year as their avatar rather ironic, isn't it?

 

[blackout]

Only a cruel and sadistic being would hold someone prisioner
in a horrible torture chamber for all time,
where death never comes!
with no breaks even!
Just constant never ending torture.

And for some stupid "transgressions"
on a "finite" plain. duh.
ANY child can plainly see this is not "good" or "love" or "justice".

somebody's messin' with your heads if you can reconcile such incongruity.
If you just accept it because someone, or some book says so...
(even though it makes no sense)
I urge you to step back , turn it over a few times...
spin around, stand on your head, shake out your brains...
and look the notion over again. :yes:

I guarantee it still won't make any sense.