For those who doubt the Ouija Board...

[Willamena]

When did the ouja board change from being a novelty which facilitated automatic writing as a party trick to being a tool for divination?

To answer the op, I don't believe in divination of any sort.

I agree that Ouija board isn't divination.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Regardless that there is a reasonable expectation to approach them with, "why would I (or anyone else) expect to find something there" indicates to me an attitude of having approached them with an expectation of finding nothing. But perhaps I'm reading it wrong.

I see how you got that from what I wrote, but it wasn't my intent. What I was trying to get at was that apparently UV and others developed the opposite expectation: that Ouija boards and the other items listed can be used for divination or communication with some sort of spiritual plane, and I'd like to know where that expectation comes from.

A reasonable expectation, I believe, lies in the philosophy that supports these devices in their usage, and in fact in their existence.

That doesn't so much answer the question as push it back one step, IMO.

 

[Willamena]

I see how you got that from what I wrote, but it wasn't my intent. What I was trying to get at was that apparently UV and others developed the opposite expectation: that Ouija boards and the other items listed can be used for divination or communication with some sort of spiritual plane, and I'd like to know where that expectation comes from.

Yes. I've tried to suggest that it comes from having a philosophy, however unhelpful that may be --old vernacular for having a set of understandings in place about how the world works, and that would be particular for each person. If you're looking for the umbrella they are all hiding beneath in their approaches, I don't think you'll find one.

For instance, I could go into detail about what I find reasonable about astrology, but it would require a description of my worldview, and a coming to terms (that is positively daunting in its scope, if the last 4 years are any indication) that might take some time, and likely would not be shared in whole, howevermuch in part, by others on this forum.

But good luck.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes. I've tried to suggest that it comes from having a philosophy, however unhelpful that may be --old vernacular for having a set of understandings in place about how the world works, and that would be particular for each person. If you're looking for the umbrella they are all hiding beneath in their approaches, I don't think you'll find one.

Well, even if we start with the assumption that there are spirits or supernatural forces out there that are interested in communicating with us, what is it about a Ouija board, tea leaves, tarot cards, or anything else that would make us think that this is the medium that would be used?

I mean, I believe that my family exists and that they want to communicate with me, but I would expect that a telephone could be used as a means to communicate with them while a pineapple, say, couldn't.

What's the rationale for thinking that a Ouija board specifically (or any of the other items listed) would be useful for its claimed purpose? AFAICT, if we just answer this with "a philosophy", then we end up in a circular argument: "I expect the Ouija board to work because I expect the Ouija board to work."

For instance, I could go into detail about what I find reasonable about astrology, but it would require a description of my worldview, and a coming to terms (that is positively daunting in its scope, if the last 4 years are any indication) that might take some time, and likely would not be shared in whole, howevermuch in part, by others on this forum.

I don't think you need to go into detail; I think it'd be a huge first step to tell us what you see as the possible mechanism by which astrology would work. What is it about the stars and planets that makes them useful for telling us what's going to happen in our lives?

Failing that, I'd settle for some indication that astrology has a good track record of doing what it claims to do.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The Ouija board is simply a tool that we can use as a means of accessing our subconcious mind...ie: the ideomotor effect. Our subconscious is able to pick up on information, messages, sounds, signals, etc...that our normal awareness does not. This is exactly the same way ESP works. Whether it is paranormal or not, it is demonstrated through the scientific concept of "ideomotor motion" that extrasensory perception is in fact possible...Accessing the subconscious mind to know the "unknown", see the "unseen", hear the "unheard". I use the words in quotations because likely we already know, seen, or heard these things without even realizing it. Our subconscious is aware, even when we are not.

 

[Willamena]

Well, even if we start with the assumption that there are spirits or supernatural forces out there that are interested in communicating with us, what is it about a Ouija board, tea leaves, tarot cards, or anything else that would make us think that this is the medium that would be used?

That's the thing: I don't honestly believe that anyone would start there, or that they could. That there's a belief in place to cause that assumption indicates to me a particular worldview/philosophy is held. Thats the actual starting place.

These things (divination techniques, though I don't include Ouija) spring from that philosophy. They are the proper medium because of that.

I don't think you need to go into detail; I think it'd be a huge first step to tell us what you see as the possible mechanism by which astrology would work. What is it about the stars and planets that makes them useful for telling us what's going to happen in our lives?

Symbolism is the mechanism of astrology and other divinatory techniques. The "sign" is a connection drawn, between scribbles on a page and events as they relate to us. Both are instances of the same thing: pictures painted of our lives.

Failing that, I'd settle for some indication that astrology has a good track record of doing what it claims to do.

While I feel no need to defend astrology on these grounds, a good author on the subject is Geoffrey Cornelius.

 

[Valjean]

If the ouija seances actually attract spirits, why can't they move the planchette themselves?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

That's a very good point that (IMO) touches on whether Ouija should be deemed divination: the divine is found in signs, not symbols. Pointing to "Yes" or "No" or spelling out a name in letters is not signs. Being told in English, and in no uncertain terms, is (may be) someone communicating with you, but a divining it's not.

I think I see what you're saying: hearing "Thou shalt go bowling" from out of nowhere is communication, whereas taking a rune spread and applying the meanings of the symbols to your life is divination.

I personally feel that divination need not spirits or gods at all. I echo those who suggest the role of the unconscious mind, and using the symbols as a framework through which to make decisions.

Recently, I used Tarot (under the guidance of the talented Gentoo ) to help in interpreting a particularly poignant dream. I had used my own significant powers of symbolic interpretation, but the implications of the dream left me bothered a bit. The Tarot reading brought the message in a totally different direction (from social relationships to work relationships) that proved useful; I saw multiple meanings in the dream that helped me understand some of my own roles in work and play.

 

[Runewolf1973]

If the ouija seances actually attract spirits, why can't they move the planchette themselves?

The general notion is that considering they don't have a physical body, they need to draw their energy from somewhere else to generate physical movement...hence they apparently draw their energy from the medium.

 

[Valjean]

But they tap -- and even tilt -- tables readily enough.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Yes, but energy is energy whether it is drawn from our bodies, or from something else like a table or whatever. I'm sure if they had such abilities, they would have more than one way of tapping into the energy of their surroundings. Interesting though... If spirits require energy to exist and to manifest themselves, perhaps they are not so unlikely to exist as people think. They are basically like us, energy forms, not "supernatural", not "divine", just different. I guess that's just me though... I don't believe in the "supernatural", but I do believe that different forms of energy are possible...of a kind not yet known to science. Elusive energy. Energy with a conscience. When you think about it, we humans are nothing more than a bunch of molecules and atoms..energy, inhabited by a consciousness...spirit.

 

[blackout]

When you open yourSelf up to the "spirit of xyz"
your perception, will be "channeled"
through your own REALized experience of that "spirit" (xyz).

Spirits to me are more....
"fear", "hope", "superstition", "supernatural", "relation", "reason", "elation", "arrogance", "joy" etc etc

For the most part everything we "read"/understand/see/believe/do
is colored and defined by the Spirits that inhabit and envelope us.

It hardly matters weather it's a newspaper, or the letters on a board.

Ouija boards (and other gateways of the "unknown")
often open One up to the "spirits" of...
superstition, or supernatural, hope, or blinding hope, or darkness of the unknown...
deeper mystery of the unknown... unsurity of the unknowable...
(in the querent)
all of which can shift the paradigm of one (querent) who does not usually
"stirr up" those spirits in their person/subjective reality.

Bottom line.... IMO... we answer our own questions.

Some spirits.... like "higher being of Self" bring about more direct results,
while spirits of "taboo" can have haphazard, though powerful results.
When we face/challange our own fears and taboos
our own "doctrines & prescriptions" of
what is ok.... or what is possible.... or what isn't possible...
we dislodge our assemblage point to one extent or another.

This is when we see/experience "out of the ordinary" things.
(as these things are, of course, outside our own norm of subjective "ordinary")

For some, this is very freeing,
for others it brings only unresolvable (sometimes disconcerting) confusion.

So it's hard to say weather it's "bad or good".

It really depends on the individual.

 

[blackout]

Weather the "Spirits" of people who have died before us
are directly contactable,
I have no idea.
But this to me,
has absolutely NOTHING at all to do with Divination.

I AM the Divine.

I Divine. As the Seer....I AM the Observer.

 

[blackout]

When I call to mind Set for example...
all of the things that Set is/embodies/represents
(as I understand them)
become present there in me.
The being of Set is stirred in me...
and around me...

Those things are VERY real.
They are very powerful.

It's good to be selective when raising things up in yourSelf.

 

[blackout]

Divination as I said before

is the reading of Life Signs.

Life signs can be found all around us...
or nowhere.
In the rich symbolisms of Tarot Cards
in the syncronicity and symbolism of a Movie that Moves us
in ANY thing that speaks to us symbolically/conceptually
of the deeper matters of Self & Being.

Those who Divine know a relational give and take
between Self & Subjective Reality.
The two move/are intrinsically ... alive as One in Being.

 

[blackout]

I tend to prefer conceptual symbolisms
to "literal word".
But word/spelling/phonetical sound
also... they are symbolisms of concepts... sooo

(even an "illuminated" street sign can be 'word' for you)

 

[Willamena]

Weather the "Spirits" of people who have died before us
are directly contactable,
I have no idea.
But this to me,
has absolutely NOTHING at all to do with Divination.

I AM the Divine.

I Divine. As the Seer....I AM the Observer.

I am the pictures I paint.

Just so.

 

[Orias]

Divination as I said before

is the reading of Life Signs.

Life signs can be found all around us...
or nowhere.
In the rich symbolisms of Tarot Cards
in the syncronicity and symbolism of a Movie that Moves us
in ANY thing that speaks to us symbolically/conceptually
of the deeper matters of Self & Being.

Those who Divine know a relational give and take
between Self & Subjective Reality.
The two move/are intrinsically ... alive as One in Being.

As every philosophy has a deeper meaning to it than what more people see.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If you think the Ouija board is a joke, do you feel the same way about Tarot readings, Runes, Palm Readings, Ball Gazing, Dice, Tea Leaves, Pendulums, Astrology, any other form of Divination, or Fortune Telling?

Certainly not. A joke should be funny.

Actually, I think anything which employs symbols can facilitate people in making decisions or prodding the subconscious to bring known information into focus. Of course, it's good if people "using" these methods understand this. Also, of course, it's better to learn to go right to the source, and learn how to do these things without a crutch.

 

[Orias]

If you think the Ouija board is a joke, do you feel the same way about Tarot readings, Runes, Palm Readings, Ball Gazing, Dice, Tea Leaves, Pendulums, Astrology, any other form of Divination, or Fortune Telling?

Yes .