For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[nick.f]

When Abraham saw three people visiting him why did he address them as Lord, one person/god even though there were three persons and not Lords? There is a reason there were three persons/angels visiting him and not one, two or four. At that time and in the time of Moses and the Old Testament world in general there was this tendancy to believe in many gods. People wouldn't realise how there can be only one god and since there are three persons people would think there are three gods. Even now people don't get it. Humans can't realise with our brain how this works. There is a reason Jesus chose simple uneducated people of the era and sent them enlightenment with the Holy Spirit during the Pentecoste for them to understand. The New Testament speaks about faith, not knowledge. You are asked to believe some things revealed to you that there is not concrete evidence about them. When people like Arius and others even though they had vast knowledge tried to understand with their own brains withoud help and revelation from Above how this about trinity "works", they fell into a heresy.
About Jesus, for God there is not something called time. There is not past, present and future for the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit. Time itself was created with the rest of the creation for humans. Only when the time was right the Son came itno the creation to save us. Not that he didn't exist before. When Adam was in paradise whose steps did he hear?

 

[wellwisher]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

There are ways to look at the trinity that can resolve the many paradoxes that can appear if you use the wrong assumptions. For example, consider a multicore processor used in computers. Depending on the task, the cores can operate separately, or all work together. Sometime the core appears separated as many distinct entities, and others times they all appear as one.

Another more human way to look at this is, picture a man named Joe, who is a son to his parents, a husband to his wife and a father to his children. Joe is one person, but he divides his time and personality into three cores, specialized to each aspect of his family. He is respectful and submissive to his parents in a unique way. He is intimate with his wife in ways only she knows. He is firm but fair with his children in ways that are unique to them. He is still one person but like a multicore processor he can distribute his mental resources to optimize the unique needs of each generation of his family.

God the Father is about Old Testament law. God the Son is about Jesus, love and faith and the New Testament. While God the Holy Spirit is about a yet to be written testament that discusses the movement of the spirit; Saints. Judeo-Christianity is one big family of three generations, with tree main ways to worship; law, love and faith, with all roads leading to the one God; processor.

 

[Muffled]

By definition any interaction from what you describe as the 'Holy Spirit' is subjective and by definition of the 'Mind only' without objective verifiable evidence. The problem remains that believers from many diverse conflicting versions of Christianity claim to be inspired by the 'Holy Spirit' and disagree with you,

This is not a citation by me, but reflects the contradictions, confusion of the interpretations of scripture because of the ambiguous nature of ancient tribal scripture.



According to the Jews, which the Torah is their book in their language none. Christians who do not believe in the Trinity do not believe the Torah supports the Trinity, The problem remains the Bible is to ambiguous to result in one uniform interpretation of the nature of God, which in Jewish tradition is unknown.

I believe many make the claim but my experience is that some do not.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe many make the claim but my experience is that some do not.

True. variable conflicting claims take into consideration some do not.

 

[Muffled]

No He isn't God, and He never claimed to be God. Neither did Jesus. Christian doctrine made Jesus into God.

I believe that is a fantasy.

I believe He did make the claim more than once. The existence of His claims refutes your statement.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe that is a fantasy.

I believe He did make the claim more than once. The existence of His claims refutes your statement.

The problem is based on scripture and there are conflicting statements by Jesus, and it remains a subjective claim not agreed to by all Christians.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that is a fantasy.

I believe He did make the claim more than once. The existence of His claims refutes your statement.

Jesus never claimed to be God. The existence of His claims refutes your statement.

Jesus is not God Bible verses

 

[ElishaElijah]

Jesus never claimed to be God. The existence of His claims refutes your statement.

Jesus is not God Bible verses

Well, it would be blasphemy for a mere man to
claim to that if you’ve seen him you’ve seen the Father or to say before Abraham was I AM.

 

[Ebionite]

Jesus never claimed to be God. The existence of His claims refutes your statement.

Jesus is not God Bible verses

"God" is ambiguous. The "my Father and I are one" statement reflects the singular nature of the group of beings known as Elohim, known as "I AM".

 

[shunyadragon]

Well, it would be blasphemy for a mere man to
claim to that if you’ve seen him you’ve seen the Father or to say before Abraham was I AM.

All the angels and Council of Gods referred to in the Bible existed before Abraham and Creation.

Jesus is repeatedly referred to as the 'son of man in the NT. Son of God. We are all Sons of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, it would be blasphemy for a mere man to
claim to that if you’ve seen him you’ve seen the Father or to say before Abraham was I AM.

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father since the Father possesses certain Attributes that the Son does not possess: The Attributes that are unique to God: Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, nobody except God can have those Attributes.

However, the Father is in the Son because Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) does not mean that Jesus is God. It means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Jesus said he was before Abraham but that does not mean Jesus was God. It means that Jesus existed before Abraham was born into this world.
The reason that Jesus existed before Abraham is because the soul of Jesus was pre-existent in the spiritual world.

"The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being."

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

 

[ElishaElijah]

All the angels and Council of Gods referred to in the Bible existed before Abraham and Creation.

Jesu is repeatedly referred to as the 'son of man in the NT. Son of God. We are all Sons of God.

So can you say if you’ve seen the Father you’ve seen me?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father since the Father possesses certain Attributes that the Son does not possess: The Attributes that are unique to God: Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, nobody except God can have those Attributes.

Yet Jesus Christ emptied Himself and became a man, and yes Jesus Christ does possess all the attributes of the Father, so does the Holy Spirit.
”Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.“
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭5‬-‭11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Brian2]

Jesu is repeatedly referred to as the 'son of man in the NT. Son of God. We are all Sons of God.

We are all sons (children) of man.
Jesus is the unique "Son of God" (that is what the phrase "only begotten son" is supposed to mean, "unique")
John 20:31 says: 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

If everyone is the a son of God and Jesus is not unique then John 20:31 is meaningless.
Jesus is the Son of God in such a way that we can call Him our God just as Thomas did at John 20:28.

 

[shunyadragon]

We are all sons (children) of man.
Jesus is the unique "Son of God" (that is what the phrase "only begotten son" is supposed to mean, "unique")
John 20:31 says: 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

If everyone is the a son of God and Jesus is not unique then John 20:31 is meaningless.
Jesus is the Son of God in such a way that we can call Him our God just as Thomas did at John 20:28.

Who are sons of God according to the New Testament?


Romans 8:14-17 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet Jesus Christ emptied Himself and became a man, and yes Jesus Christ does possess all the attributes of the Father

No, Jesus was not Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, or Immaterial.
Nobody except God can have those Attributes.

”Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God,

Being in the' form of God' means Jesus was not God since a form of something is not the something that it it is a form of.

did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

Jesus did consider it robbery to be equal with God.
Jesus said that God was greater than He was and said to worship only God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth

God exalted Jesus and gave Jesus the name that was above every other name, at least at the time this verse was written.
That shows that there are two separate entities, God and Jesus. Jesus was a a mirror image of God since Jesus reflected God's attributes, but Jesus was not God.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

 

[shunyadragon]

So can you say if you’ve seen the Father you’ve seen me?

No one has seen God despite claims of many over the millennia.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No one has seen God despite claims of many over the millennia.

Are you calling Jesus Christ a liar now?

”Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”“
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭46‬-‭51‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, Jesus was not Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, or Immaterial.
Nobody except God can have those Attributes.

When He came to earth and became a man no. But now glorified with the glory He had before He did come yes, He has all those attributes.
”“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.” And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭8‬, ‭11‬, ‭17‬-‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Brian2]

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father since the Father possesses certain Attributes that the Son does not possess: The Attributes that are unique to God: Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, nobody except God can have those Attributes.

And yet Jesus is the image of the invisible God, so He must have all the attributes of God.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) does not mean that Jesus is God. It means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

John 14:9 Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
So Jesus is exactly like His Father. That means He has all the attributes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, including being as good as God.
"Nobody is good but God alone" is therefore a claim of deity, even if those who heard Him did not recognise that. It was written for our benefit.
YHWH said that nobody is comparable to Him, but then in the New Testament Jesus is comparable to Him. That means that Jesus must be YHWH. But it does not mean that the Father is the Son.
So your eyes glaze over and you think "How can I believe that when I can't understand it?"
So you end up denying the Word of God because you cannot understand it.

Jesus said he was before Abraham but that does not mean Jesus was God. It means that Jesus existed before Abraham was born into this world.
The reason that Jesus existed before Abraham is because the soul of Jesus was pre-existent in the spiritual world.

"The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being."

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Do you and Shoghi Effendi say that Jesus and Moses and Abraham and Buddha and Baha'u'llah and etc have existed from eternity and were not ever created?