ElishaElijah
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First that’s not what I said, maybe that’s part of the problem…I thought my comments were clear but obviously not to you or you aren’t reading them. Maybe something else like you’re locked into your view and that’s it.
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For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?
- Thread starter seekandfind
- Start date
Are you a Christian? Do you profess faith in Jesus Christ or do you practice Judaism?
Yes, it's profoundly relevant to the discussion.
Corrected.
ElishaElijah
Return
Jesus Christ humbled Himself and became a man, lived a perfect life, was crucified, buried and rose from the dead.
I repented and believed that, was born again of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ is God the Son who became a man, did only that which pleases the Father who is God, the Holy Spirit also God was sent to indwell believers, empower us to be His witnesses and ambassadors on the earth till He returns.
It is interesting that “Son of God” never bothered anyone in the time of Jesus. If I am not mistaken, the Jewish people understood that they were all sons of God as stipulated in places like:
Deut 14: “You are the sons of the Lord your God.
It was “son of man” that made the difference IMU as he referenced Daniel 7.
Great. We can move forward.
Do you claim that the Hebrew word Yachid is never used in the Bible in reference to God?
ElishaElijah
Return
No, but would have to check all the references, if you have one in mind then go ahead and share that.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
If God BECAME a man then God would BE a man.
If God does not change His mind, then God would not have changed His mind from when the OT was written to when the NT was written, and decide to become a man.
The Bible does not say that God BECAME flesh. Jesus was a Manifestation of God, as the Bible says.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Baha'is believe in the virgin birth and that Jesus was miraculously conceived by the Holy Spirit.
Baha'is believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, not God.
No, it doesn't say that, but it also does not say that God will become a human. You want God to me a human so that is what you believe, but nowhere in the Bible does it say that God became a human.
You BELIEVE that Baha'is have trouble understanding passages in the Bible because you BELIEVE that you understand them and we don't but that is only your personal opinion, not a fact.
I agree that the meaning of the whole verse is that God is not like a men who lie and change their mind.
If God became a man, as you believe He did, then God would be like a men who lie and change their mind.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You seem to want to avoid the correct translations of the Bible in favor of translations that have been altered to make Jesus into God.
But it's all for the "Cause" so you are a true follower of the false doctrines of Christianity, thus denying what the Bible says.
If no one has ever seen God, then Jesus cannot be God, since we know from the Bible that many people saw Jesus.
Christians have altered the translations of john 1:18 in order to make Jesus into God. This is reprehensible.
By changing the translation, the verse ends up making no logical sense at all.
Jesus was either the Son of God or He was the Father (God). Jesus cannot be both the Son and the Father. That is logically contradictory.
John 1:18
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway
CSB
No one has ever seen God. The one and only Son, who is himself God and is at the Father’s side—he has revealed him.
The correct translation is:
No one has ever seen God. The one and only Son, who is the Son of God and is at the Father’s side—he has revealed him.
ERV
No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself God and is very close to the Father.
The correct translation is:
No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself the Son of God and is very close to the Father.
CEV
No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.
The correct translation is:
The only Son, who is truly the Son of God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.
NET
No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.
The correct translation is:
No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself the Son of God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.
NIV
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
The correct translation is:
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself the Son of God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
NLT
No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.
The correct translation is:
No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself the Son of God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The following translations of John 1:18 are correct, consistent with how I made the corrections above.
These translations are also consistent with Baha'i beliefs about Jesus and God.
John 1:18
John 1:18 - Bible Gateway
CEB No one has ever seen God. God the only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made God known.
KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
NASB No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
NCV No one has ever seen God. But God the only Son is very close to the Father, and he has shown us what God is like.
NKJV No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
NLV The much-loved Son is beside the Father. No man has ever seen God. But Christ has made God known to us.
RSV No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
WE No one has ever seen God. But his only Son is very near to his Father's heart. He has told us plainly about God.
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Then why would you make such an implication?
You also never specified the verse you're referring to. Any reason for that?
If there are other verses where Yachid is used in reference to God, then your comment would be a moot point.
Would it not?
I can tell you for a certainty that the Bible never declares that God is three persons - in English or Hebrew.
ElishaElijah
Return
Gave you verse in Genesis and Gospel of John, you must’ve missed those - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so how can you say scripture doesn’t say?
Echad is used for describing God which means plurality of one not Yachid meaning singular one.
So where is your scripture?
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ElishaElijah
Return
Not really because of talking about God the Father, there is only singular 1, or of God the Son there is singular 1, or of God the Holy Spirit there is singular 1.
Not sure why you’re not comprehending that?
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Many who attack the Deity of Jesus have to claim, without evidence, that the Bible has been changed.
People have not seen the invisible God and have not seen the full glory of God but people have seen God when He chooses to show them Himself in a form in which He is visible. eg Ex 24:9-12, Ex 33:19-23. The body of Jesus is enough to cover the full glory of God. Jesus glory came through at the transfiguration, but not the full glory. Moses spoke to God face to face and saw part of the glory of God and had to cover his face so the people did not see it, but Moses did not see the full glory of God.
If you read your "correct" translations I'm sure you will want to remove some of them.
I know that mistakes have been corrected in older translations because of the many manuscripts that have been found and so it has been worked out where and when accidental or on purpose alterations happened, and so they have been corrected.
When you say:
By changing the translation, the verse ends up making no logical sense at all.
Jesus was either the Son of God or He was the Father (God). Jesus cannot be both the Son and the Father. That is logically contradictory.
you show your misunderstanding of the Trinity teaching.
True, Jesus is not the Father but the Son of God can be called God if God is 3 persons in the one God.
So Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28) and many other passages show OT verses referring to YHWH were actually talking about the Son.
eg Hob 1:10-12 from Psalm 102:25-27 and 1Peter 2:7-8 from Isa 8:14 etc etc.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Numbers 23:19 does not say that God will never become a man, so God has not changed His mind.
And anyway, the Father, the only true God, did not become a man. It is the Son who is in the Father and one (thing) with the Father who became a man. God has remained an invisible Spirit all along but the all 3, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are called God, both corporately and individually.
The Bible just tells us how it is, it does not tell us that we have to be able to fully understand it.
The Bible never knew anything about the Baha'i "Manifestations" of God and what they are defined as in their convoluted way.
1Tim 3:16 is just saying that "God" (Jesus) became a man.
The Holy Spirit is called God in the Bible, just as Jesus is.
I used to think that Baha'is believed in the virgin birth but have since found out they do not believe that officially. (But you do it seems)
Numbers 23:19 does not say that God will not become a human, and I think that is what you were saying.
But yes the Bible does not directly say that God will become a human,,,,,,,,,,,, and in a way, God did not become a human, because God, the Father, remained an invisible Spirit. However the Bible does say that God's Son is one (thing) with the Father and that God's Son became a human and that we call Him God, as Thomas did, and as the early Church did and etc etc
You know that Baha'i denies parts of the Bible are true even though you seem to like saying that it is just a matter of interpretation.
I always point out the very plain Acts 1:9-11 and on seeing that verse any believers in the Bible know that Baha'u'llah is a false Christ and we don't even have to look at anything else relating to him or Baha'i teachings.
Jesus was a man who was exactly like His Father, in that Jesus was good and did not lie or change His mind.
And according to Jesus only God is good.
iow the darkness was not able to overcome the light. Jesus remained good even as a man, and overcame the world with His goodness and obedience even when tempted to sin.
This does not necessarily refer to the the Trinity. Biblically there are references to a "Council of Gods", maybe 'our" may include Angels or as some believe Manifestation of God all preexistent before Creation. This is where stretching the interpretation of an "our" to refer to the "Trinity" is insufficient to justify the interpretation.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The following translations have been altered by Trinitarian Christians who want Jesus to be God.
CSB No one has ever seen God. The one and only Son, who is himself God and is at the Father’s side—he has revealed him.
ERV No one has ever seen God. The only Son is the one who has shown us what God is like. He is himself God and is very close to the Father.
CEV No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.
NET No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known.
NIV No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
NLT No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.
The visible form is called a Manifestation of God.
I believe that the Trinity teaching -- God is 3 persons in the one God -- is a false teaching, and that is not only because I am a Baha'i. As you know from being on this forum, many Christians believe it is a false teaching and many Christians do not believe that Jesus is God.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I just came across this thread. I did not read all the posts, especially they can get combative and detailed. But I wonder how would Jesus be "ONLY" God's Son as if it were maybe not such a great thing to be "only" God's son?
Remember -- the Bible says he professed to be God's son and was assailed by religious people because some considered that blasphemous. He did remind his opponents that they were also considered sons of God but his sonship was different since he had come down from heaven. They knew that was different. John chapter 10 is quite a moving chapter. Quoting just a few verses from it, hopefully some will read it themselves to see what it says in its entirety.
"what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father."
Yes, the Bible says he was accused of blasphemy because he said he is God's SON. So I do not believe it was a little thing to be called God's SON.
Remember -- the Bible says he professed to be God's son and was assailed by religious people because some considered that blasphemous. He did remind his opponents that they were also considered sons of God but his sonship was different since he had come down from heaven. They knew that was different. John chapter 10 is quite a moving chapter. Quoting just a few verses from it, hopefully some will read it themselves to see what it says in its entirety.
"what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father."
Yes, the Bible says he was accused of blasphemy because he said he is God's SON. So I do not believe it was a little thing to be called God's SON.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Bible says that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son:
God's Son is one with the Father (I and my Father are one - John 10:30)
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
The Father is in the Son because Jesus was like a clear mirror reflecting God's attributes, and God became visible in the mirror, meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.
But the Bible does not say that the Father became a man. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity says that.
No, the Bible never said anything about the Baha'i "Manifestations" of God because that had not been revealed at the time that the Bible was written. That was revealed by Baha'u'llah much later.
The virgin birth is an 'official' Baha'i belief.
1637. Christ, Virgin Birth of
"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."
(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)
1639. Bahá’í Teachings in Agreement with Doctrines of Catholic Church Concerning the Virgin Birth
"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus: On this point, as on several others, the Bahá’í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the 'Kitáb-i-Íqán' (Book of Certitude) p. 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, Bahá’u’lláh confirms, however indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. Also ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the 'Some Answered Questions', Chap. XII, p. 73, explicitly states that 'Christ found existence through the Spirit of God' which statement necessarily implies, when viewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph."
(From a letter dated October 14, 1945 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)
Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith
That is correct. God is an invisible spirit.
The Bible says that God's Son is one with the Father (I and my Father are one - John 10:30) but the Bible does not say that God's Son became a human. The latter is only a Christian doctrine.
Jesus has many attributes of God the Father, but Jesus was not exactly like His Father because Jesus did not have ALL the attributes of His Father.
Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is Sovereign, Eternal, Holy, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.
One of God's other attributes is Infallible, and the Manifestations of God also have this attribute.
Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. The Manifestations of God also have these attributes.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
The Bible knows nothing about any Baha'i Manifestations of God.
Before God created anything there was only God.
That is the same as "In the beginning there was only God".
God was not created, just as John 1:3 and Col 1:15,16 also tell us that the Word was not created.
God created all things, visible and invisible through Jesus. (Col 1:15,16) and that would include angels and Baha'i Manifestations.
Brian2
Veteran Member
So here are some OT passages, and I don't care if the Jews translate them differently even if you do and want to say that the Christian translations are lying.
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Zech 12:10Then I will pour out on the house of David and on the people of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
(This is YHWH speaking)
Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger (John the Baptist), who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
And shall call his name Immanuel. (God with us)
Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Once I start on the New Testament quotes from the OT and which make quotes about YHWH applicable to Jesus, it become more plain that Jesus is called God and YHWH.