Gay Cake Row: How have we come to this point?

[lostwanderingsoul]

it seems like everyone has rights except religious people.

 

[Nietzsche]

it seems like everyone has rights except religious people.

No, no. Everyone has rights, but no one has the right to discriminate.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well I wasn't talking about Ireland, but good to know!
ETA: Failure to embrace non-binary options doesn't eliminate their existence. Sorta like how science is true whether you believe in it or not.

Legal systems are so seldom about workable solutions which are fair to all.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, no. Everyone has rights, but no one has the right to discriminate.

Discrimination is ubiquitous & necessary.
The issue is which groups are protected from it in which situations.
That's continually changing.

 

[Revoltingest]

That would be discriminating against gays though, wouldn't it?

If political speech is protected in Ireland, then the opposite of a pro-gay marriage might be protected.
But if gays are special in that no negative things may be said of them, then the bakers could refuse.
Btw, it's time for this....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

it seems like everyone has rights except religious people.

Why should discrimination be a right?
And, because you've apparently never worked anything related to customer service, those workers have no rights or legal protections to defend themselves against belligerent customers, and they can be disciplined for standing up for themselves. And people want to cry and whine because they may have to potentially serve a homosexual?
Religious people who see not being able to discriminate as a problem and assault against their rights can get over themselves.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I think we should rename this situation as "Gay Cake Gate"

 

[The Enlightened One]

it seems like everyone has rights except religious people.

May I ask which rights?

 

[gsa]

Were I the owner of the print shop discussed in post #29, I fully suspect that I would refuse the business (and perhaps suffer the consequences).

And there would be no problem with that. The limitation on discriminatory practices in provision of services does not extend to ideological messaging per se. Making a cake with two grooms that says "Kevin and Tom" is not the legal equivalent of "No Jews Please." And this is why the baker who refused to bake anti-gay cakes won her case, while the bakers who refused gay clients have lost their own.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

enlightened one asked "what rights" gays and blacks have the right to demand service even from a business owner who does not want their business. atheists have the right to demand that no holiday decorations be placed in government buildings. ( don't talk about separation of church and state). Christians are battered from all sides. name one case where a Christian won over anyone else.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

name one case where a Christian won over anyone else.

"In god we trust" appears on our currency. "Under god," was added to the pledge. In Indianapolis a judge ordered a divorcing couple (both parents Wiccan) to not expose their child to "non-mainstream" religions. Around here, beginning meetings with Christian prayer is common.
You asked for one. How is four?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

atheists have the right to demand that no holiday decorations be placed in government buildings. ( don't talk about separation of church and state).

It's much simplier just to have the government not favor any one religion, because then it has to favor all religions, or somehow figure out how to fairly include and exclude certain ones so things don't get out of hand.
And why not talk about separation of church and state? "Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of religion."

 

[Ingledsva]

If political speech is protected in Ireland, then the opposite of a pro-gay marriage might be protected.
But if gays are special in that no negative things may be said of them, then the bakers could refuse.
Btw, it's time for this....

That was funny.


*

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

in England there is an official Church of England. the founding fathers did not want an official "established" church of the United States. they never meant to completely eliminate religion from the country

 

[Ingledsva]

in England there is an official Church of England. the founding fathers did not want an official "established" church of the United States. they never meant to completely eliminate religion from the country

What is your point? We have many religions in the USA.

None of you have the right to dictate your religious laws over the rest of us.

*

 

[Shadow Wolf]

in England there is an official Church of England. the founding fathers did not want an official "established" church of the United States. they never meant to completely eliminate religion from the country

And nobody is trying to eliminate it. However, because our laws dictate that we shall have official religion, we should all expect our government to remain religion-neutral, as this is the best way to preserve the overall rights of everyone as well as the best way to preserve the individual right of freedom of worship.

 

[The Enlightened One]

enlightened one asked "what rights" gays and blacks have the right to demand service even from a business owner who does not want their business. atheists have the right to demand that no holiday decorations be placed in government buildings. ( don't talk about separation of church and state). Christians are battered from all sides. name one case where a Christian won over anyone else.

No, a Christian can demand similar things but they are the majority so there's nobody ACTUALLY opressing them.

And yes, let's talk about seperation of church and state, because it effects everybody. If any other religion was influential to the point where THEIR commonly held values were being legislated and imposed upon you and your family and your community then would you feel oppressed?

 

[The Enlightened One]

Christians are battered from all sides. name one case where a Christian won over anyone else.

How about the fact that I can't marry a man in Ohio. How about the fact that religious materials were allowed to be distributed in Florida.

 

[The Enlightened One]

in England there is an official Church of England. the founding fathers did not want an official "established" church of the United States. they never meant to completely eliminate religion from the country

Then they succeeded because it hasn't been

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

don't you see that by banning religion - the atheists win. so their rights take priority over a Christian's rights. if we were really religion neutral then atheist views would not take priority