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God Is Not A Tolerant God

rojse

RF Addict
God is giving a natural phenomenon a supernatural explanation.

For the heartburn example, I could say that it is God's judgement against you.

Could I be proven wrong on this assertion?

You could say that your God does not allow these sort of things, but what your God does and what mine does might be completely different, even should we share the Bible as our common holy book.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
athanasius said:
You do not know scripture or Church history very well do you. Rape is a violent act done to someone who is unwilling, out of anger and mental problems. God did nothing violent to her at all, rather she freely faithfully consented saying "May it be done unto me according to your will" Her fiat, her yes, her free will. She could have said no according to catholic theology. But she assented out of love and Honor for God.:yes:

God bless you through the Co-redemptrix Mary,
Athanasius

I was joking. I thought that was obvious. :shrug:

Guitar's Cry said:
That is something that cannot be validated except to the individual. And as an individual, I have reasons to doubt that God is a "stand-alone being...completely without [me]". Whether or not It existed before me is irrelevent to my experience of It.

You would not experience God, but He would still exist outside of your knowledge. Unless you are a phenominalist (not sure of spelling).
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
Does God tolerate false teaching?

Answer: No, Revelation 2:14 "Nevertheless, I ( God ) have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam,....."

Revelation 2:15 "Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans."

Revelation 2:16 "Repent...."

Does God tolerate the followers of the false teachers?

Answer: No, 2 John 1:10-11 "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work."

Does God tolerate evil acts or sexual immorality?

Answer: No, 1 Corinthians 5:1 "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you,..........and you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?

Does God tolerate people who approves of evil?

Answer: No, Romans 1:32 "Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

Romans 14:22 "......Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.

ok, well sorry to jump in here replying to the first post on the third page of the thread, but I truly couldn't resist. :D

All I have to say is...NO DUH! Of course God isn't tolerant. Whatever would give anyone the idea that God is a tolerant God? He is extremely intolerant of all sin. I thought that was obvious. So yes, I agree entirely, God is certainly not tolerant.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
God is giving a natural phenomenon a supernatural explanation.

For the heartburn example, I could say that it is God's judgement against you.

Could I be proven wrong on this assertion?

You could say that your God does not allow these sort of things, but what your God does and what mine does might be completely different, even should we share the Bible as our common holy book.
God is not what you percieve Him to be but what He is. One's limited knowlege and false impressions are a product of their own limited awarenwess.
 

rojse

RF Addict
God is not what you percieve Him to be but what He is. One's limited knowlege and false impressions are a product of their own limited awarenwess.

I suppose this is the point where we descend into the argument about the existence of God.

Assuming he exists, your definition would be more correct than mine.

If he does not, my definition would be more correct than yours.

I will just agree to disagree, as we are basing both of our definitions on a different assumption (that god exists or does not exist).
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
You would not experience God, but He would still exist outside of your knowledge. Unless you are a phenominalist (not sure of spelling).

This is true, and I may be arguing from a phenomenalist viewpoint, but in terms of that statement, my point was that God cannot be proven to exist except as either a symbol for something observable or a subjective truth. So stating that God is a "stand-alone being that existed before I did" is a subjective truth--and happens to not be in line with my truth.

Which is the crux of this discussion between Sandy, Dopp, and me. As something that--as far as I know, so I could still be wrong--cannot be proven to exist outside of the individuals' perspective (except maybe as a symbol with some social force), God becomes a symbol reflecting the personality of that individual.

And even if God exists as a being seperate, It appears to wear the masks of every individual perceiving It--even if it is based on cultural mores and memes the individual necessarily adds their own decorations to that divine mask.

I've used the metaphor of a prism before when discussing God. I see It--even assuming it is a symbol with no seperate being attached to it--as a light passing through the prism of Humanity, with each individual facet letting through a different color.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Guitar's Cry said:
This is true, and I may be arguing from a phenomenalist viewpoint, but in terms of that statement, my point was that God cannot be proven to exist except as either a symbol for something observable or a subjective truth. So stating that God is a "stand-alone being that existed before I did" is a subjective truth--and happens to not be in line with my truth.

Which is the crux of this discussion between Sandy, Dopp, and me. As something that--as far as I know, so I could still be wrong--cannot be proven to exist outside of the individuals' perspective (except maybe as a symbol with some social force), God becomes a symbol reflecting the personality of that individual.

And even if God exists as a being seperate, It appears to wear the masks of every individual perceiving It--even if it is based on cultural mores and memes the individual necessarily adds their own decorations to that divine mask.

I've used the metaphor of a prism before when discussing God. I see It--even assuming it is a symbol with no seperate being attached to it--as a light passing through the prism of Humanity, with each individual facet letting through a different color.

I understand your point now. God has never been proven to exist, at least not like we know people exist. Virtually everyone who believes in God molds that God to his or her image of perfection. The Divine Mask is that person's transcendental reality, his or her perfect model to emulate. In other words, we create God in our image.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Interesting! Could you explain further?
Romans 1:21-23 sums it rather nicely:
" Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
I suppose this is the point where we descend into the argument about the existence of God.

Assuming he exists, your definition would be more correct than mine.

If he does not, my definition would be more correct than yours.

I will just agree to disagree, as we are basing both of our definitions on a different assumption (that god exists or does not exist).
If God does not exist this is a baseless discussion. Since the OP made an assumption that God exists the discussion then leads into the true nature of God. I then say that God does not conform Himself to His creations' every whimsy.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I understand your point now. God has never been proven to exist, at least not like we know people exist. Virtually everyone who believes in God molds that God to his or her image of perfection. The Divine Mask is that person's transcendental reality, his or her perfect model to emulate. In other words, we create God in our image.

Essentially! We know that God exists as a symbol, at least. And as a symbol, it is up for interpretation by the observer.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Romans 1:21-23 sums it rather nicely:
" Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

And yet, when we remove God from our imagination and bring It into the world of definition, we are removing It from It's throne, and stripping It of It's omnipotence.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
ok, well sorry to jump in here replying to the first post on the third page of the thread, but I truly couldn't resist. :D

All I have to say is...NO DUH! Of course God isn't tolerant. Whatever would give anyone the idea that God is a tolerant God? He is extremely intolerant of all sin. I thought that was obvious. So yes, I agree entirely, God is certainly not tolerant.

I agree. God is so holy he cannot tolerate sin. But God is so loving that he paid the penalty of our sin on the cross, "He who knew no sin was made sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor. 5:21)
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
joeboonda said:
I agree. God is so holy he cannot tolerate sin. But God is so loving that he paid the penalty of our sin on the cross, "He who knew no sin was made sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor. 5:21)

Curious... I would imagine that if God was so holy, He would tolerate sin. After all, if we are imperfect because of the Original Sin it is not our fault that we sin (Obviously things like murder are still heinous, but I am talking about the simple things that we cannot avoid). If there is no Original Sin, then it is God's fault for creating us as we are now and many of the sins we commit are actually His fault. :shrug:
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Curious... I would imagine that if God was so holy, He would tolerate sin. After all, if we are imperfect because of the Original Sin it is not our fault that we sin (Obviously things like murder are still heinous, but I am talking about the simple things that we cannot avoid). If there is no Original Sin, then it is God's fault for creating us as we are now and many of the sins we commit are actually His fault. :shrug:

But God did not create us as we are now. God created Adam and made Eve from his rib. Adam sinned and became a mortal, fallen man. God did not create us, we came from our parents procreating us. Our parents and us inherited Adams fallen nature. God created Adam with the abiltiy to choose--freewill. Adam chose to disobey God, who is holy and sinless, which is sin. The wages of sin is death. So, death passed down to all of us. But while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. He paid the wages of sin. If we trust that he did that we are reconciled to God, the sin problem has been paid for in full, once and for all. We are responsible for the sins we comitt, even though we have a sin-nature, we still have a choice. But, you are right, we will still sin even if we have trusted Christ to have paid for them, up until we die or are raptured and receive our new transformed, incorruptible (sinless), immortal, and glorified bodies. The Bible tells believers that if they say they have no sin they are liars and the truth is not in them. But it says when we confess our sins Christ is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. In fact, in one sense, he already has. Yet he continues to cleanse us, to conform us into his image, as we grow in his grace. As believers, children of God, we have a Father/Son(daughter) relationship with him. We will ALWAYS have that relationship, but not always have the fellowship. (a father can be playing happily with his son one minute, and the boy be alone in his room spanked, sulking and the happy fellowship temporarily broken if the boy has disobeyed his parents) But when the boy says he is sorry and will try not to do that again, the fellowship is restored. The relationship is never in jeapardy. Even if my son changes his name and moves halfway around the world, he still has my blood coarsing through his veins and he is still my son. Some of these things are hard to understand, but I take God's Word on it and the longer I live the more I understand and see it play out.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Joeboonda said:
We are responsible for the sins we comitt, even though we have a sin-nature, we still have a choice.

I am confused because you contradict youself. You say we have a sin-nature, yet we have a choice in the matter. Does that mean it is possible to never sin and get to Heaven without the need of Jesus? If we are built to sin, then how could God blame us for something we have no control over?
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
It seems contradictory, let me try to explain it. God did not create Adam with a sin nature, but because of Adam's sin we were born with a sin-nature. Because of this, the Bible says we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We still have the ability to choose not to, but as God is perfectly holy, the Bible says if we break one law we are guilty of all. God has a zero tolerance for sin. So, even though we may make many right choices in our life, it is inevetible that we will sin along the way. To answer the question is it possible to never sin and get to Heaven without Jesus the answer is no. Only Jesus was able to live a sinless life because he was born of the seed of the woman and the Holy Ghost and did not inherit Adam's sin-nature, and he is God. In Genesis it says the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent, meaning that Jesus will crush Satan and evil and sin and death. This was accomplished at the cross when he redeemed (paid for) us from the wages of sin. God does not blame us for something we have no control over, he tells us in the Bible that we have all sinned, that there is none righteous, no, not one. We are simply in a bit of a pickle. But, God loves us and knows because of Adam's and our sin we are separated from him, so he provided the way for us to be reconciled back to him. Since the wages of sin is death, Christ died for us, taking our punishment in our place. This is the greatest truth one can ever grasp, the substitutionary death of Christ. A preacher imagined the conversation on the Mount of Transfiguration where Moses-representing the Law, and Elijah-representing the prophets, were with Jesus. He imagines they told him that all of Heaven is focused on one thing, that Jesus carry out what he came to do to redeem mankind. They wanted to be sure he went to the cross for you and me. And he did.

Even though we have this sin-nature, we do choose to do what is right alot. But one sin is all it takes to separate us from God. His attribute of holiness requires that nothing sinful or 'unclean' can abide with him. The fact is that we were born in a fallen state, spiritually dead to God. God told Adam the day he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would surely die. He said the soul that sins will surely die. We also inherited this spiritual deadness. The Bible says we must be 'quickened' that is 'made alive' or reborn, regenerated, i.e. born again. That is, our spirit which is dead must be made alive by our having trusted in Christ. It is simply the spiritual condition we were all born into. That is why Jesus said that those who do not believe in him are 'condemned already'. They say, "born once, die twice, born twice, die once." If one is born into this world and is not born again spiritualy, they not only die physically, but then must pay for their own sins having rejected the gift that Jesus paid for them, and go to Hell, ultimately the Lake of Fire, which is called the 2nd Death. If one is born twice, born again spiritually by having trusted Christ, they die only once, physically (unless raptured), their sins having been paid for by the death of Christ and having his righteousness in place of their own, and having been reborn spiritually, possessors of eternal life, passed from death to life the moment they trusted him.

Finally, men ultimately do have a choice. The actual choice is to recognize the fact of their sinful state thus their separation from God and turn to him admitting they are sinners, asking for forgiveness and turning from their way they may think they might save themselves and accept God's way, his provision for the wages of our sin which is death--the death of his son. We owe a debt we cannot pay, but he paid a debt he did not owe, for God SO loved the world. OR, man may choose to reject God's provision for salvation, to choose to let sin reign in his life, and die and pay for his sins himself in Hell. This is the choice. Some may say they will choose not to sin and get to Heaven on their own, but no man is capable. All our 'works of righteousness' are as filthy rags as far as salvation is concerned. We are fallen man and God is holy God, that is just a fact. God provided the way to take away our sins, to blot them out and not 'impute' them unto us anymore by laying them all on Jesus at the cross. This is the way he was able to provide, at great cost. This is his free offer, we may take it or leave it.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Joe said:
It seems contradictory, let me try to explain it. God did not create Adam with a sin nature, but because of Adam's sin we were born with a sin-nature. Because of this, the Bible says we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We still have the ability to choose not to, but as God is perfectly holy, the Bible says if we break one law we are guilty of all. God has a zero tolerance for sin. So, even though we may make many right choices in our life, it is inevetible that we will sin along the way.

All right, Joe, let me sort through this mish-mash of a theology you got going on. First, you say that we are born with a sin-nature and then you say we have the ability to choose. Which is it? If we still have the freedom not to sin, then how are we different from Adam? Where does the sin-nature play in on our ability to choose good and evil?

Joe said:
To answer the question is it possible to never sin and get to Heaven without Jesus the answer is no.

So, why should God blame us for something we cannot achieve?

Joe said:
God does not blame us for something we have no control over, he tells us in the Bible that we have all sinned, that there is none righteous, no, not one.

If God does not blame us for having a sin-nature (whatever that means), then where is the problem? Jesus never had to die, because we were never in any danger.

Joe said:
Since the wages of sin is death, Christ died for us, taking our punishment in our place.

If I become a righteous follower of God, could I die (burn in hell) for someone I love?

Now that I am done with critiquing your writing, I want to add a few words. God should not punish people for merely being human. If God truly understands and loves humanity He surely realizes that Heaven and Hell are not the only options. God could create a new world for all the "sinners" and let them live there in peace. The new world could be in another dimension, far away from His heaven. Or, if this still doesn't satisfy God, He could wipe them from existence. You seem to equate the Maxium Good, with not tolerating evil in any shape or form. It is a shame your God does not follow Jesus' words, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Jesus Christ is my God and my God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and is not willing that any should perish. Don't quote Jesus' words without believing the rest of them where he warned us of Hell and eternal punishment for the wicked. If the Bible confuses you so much I am sorry for you. The bottom line is that God is holy and we are not, our sins have separated us from him. We were born into a fallen creation with a sin-nature and have all sinned and are in need of a Saviour. God gave us a conscience to know when we have done wrong, we all have felt it, its called guilt. The good news is that salvation, reconcilliation with God is a free gift, no strings attached, we simply accept by trusting that Christ paid for our sins. You're arguments and reasonings are with the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Jesus Christ, not with me. I have told you what the Bible says, that is all I can do. I wish you well.
Mike
 
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