God's conditional love

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmmm... it seems to me that you have different idea of love. I don't think totalitarian fascism is really love. Love gives freedom, and it can mean that some people choose evil.

The bible and gods love only applies to believers. An unconditional God doesn't have that division. All love you experience from God isn't universal.

For example, repentance is a criteria for salvation; UL doesn't have that criteria or set of conditions to receive gods love. UL promotes universalism. Christianity isn't a universal faith. No abrahamic tradition is.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmmm... it seems to me that you have different idea of love. I don't think totalitarian fascism is really love. Love gives freedom, and it can mean that some people choose evil.

I don't know what that means. Universalism I believe was rejected by Christian authority. The Bible divided believers and nonbelievers with conditions to recieve gods love and salvation. Universalist felt all people are accepted by God. Not sure what that phrase you said means.

 

[DNB]

I have no idea. But I was asking you. You're the one putting atheists and murderers in one bucket.

Do you have a problem staying on topic? Why are you posing non-sequiturs for? If you understood the OP or the context of my post, you wouldn't be asking the question. You have taken my comment out-of-context, and therefore, such a perspective has lead you to create a non-sequitur.

In other words, how is it possible that you would have no idea how God would feel about atheists???

No, my existence and the universe is not sufficient reason to believe God exists. That's a non-sequitur. I'm alive because my parents had sex and that's how nature works.

Then what about your parents existence, is that enough proof? Or, what about the fact that your parents had sex together and were able to produce you, does that constitute proof in your mind?

There is no need to believe in God in order to know about love and righteousness.

Try telling that to either a donkey, mosquito, or a whale.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Why is God's love for us conditional on us believing in him and doing what he says?/… …/God would send such people to Hell because of this/…

Dear Eddi,

I think that we’d do well to address other, related concepts before approaching your concerns about God’s love for Man.

It is thought that upon human death, Man shall go through Judgement. Judgement is the state in which Man personally gets to experience/witness all the consequences of his actions in life. It is where Man realises to what degree his own choices contributed to the overall of human ease and human suffering.

He who goes through Hell upon Judgement, does not do so because God does not love him; he does so only because he has grasped his own part in the causing of human suffering.

And, it is precisely because God does love all Man equally, that no Man can experience the state of peace that is Heaven, without first having felt and understood his own role in the suffering of another.

We may of course perhaps add that he who does not believe in God, will be unable to see that he regardless too is loved by Him.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[AppieB]

Do you have a problem staying on topic? Why are you posing non-sequiturs for? If you understood the OP or the context of my post, you wouldn't be asking the question. You have taken my comment out-of-context, and therefore, such a perspective has lead you to create a non-sequitur.

I haven't even reached a conclusion. I was asking a question, so how can this be a non-sequitur? o you have a problem clarifying your statement? If you think the question was asked in the wrong context, provide the answer in the right context and clarify.
You first response was: "On what justifiable grounds would it not be conditional? What does the one and only, holy and transcendent God have to do with an atheist, a satanist or a murderer?" In which context should I see this? Do you believe atheists a bad people? Or does your God think atheists are bad people?

In other words, how is it possible that you would have no idea how God would feel about atheists???

I have many ideas what those gods would think presented by people who believe. I just don't know which one I should believe, if any.

I'll tell you this: If there is a god who is omniscient, omnipotent etc... I don't think it would care which religion, if any, you followed. I think god would be intelligent enough for not to demand to be worshipped. That just seems ridiculous for such a powerfull and all-knowing god.

Then what about your parents existence, is that enough proof? Or, what about the fact that your parents had sex together and were able to produce you, does that constitute proof in your mind?


Try telling that to either a donkey, mosquito, or a whale.

How is that an argument for the existence of God?

 

[AppieB]

I think the two are kinda intertwined.

As verbs the difference between convinced and believe
is that convinced is (convince) while believeis (label) to accept as true, particularly without absolute certainty (ie, as opposed to knowing).

As an adjective convinced
is in a state of believing, especially from evidence but not necessarily.

But, regardless... IMV, He is still meeting people at their point of desire

I'm sorry, English is not my native language so I probably don't understand quite well what you are saying. Or I'm not expressing well what I want to say.
Again, to believe something is not a choice. I couldn't force myself to believe something which I don't believe is true. I'm not convinced that God exists. And I could force myself into believing God exists when I'm not convinced.

Maybe the word convinced seems stronger than the word believe, but I don't think there's much difference.

Don't know how to express this better.

OK... I am not sure I understand. I don't think God is trying to convince you of something that you don't believe is true.

But, regardless, knock, seek and you will find.

We"ll see

 

[Kenny]

I'm sorry, English is not my native language so I probably don't understand quite well what you are saying. Or I'm not expressing well what I want to say.
Again, to believe something is not a choice. I couldn't force myself to believe something which I don't believe is true. I'm not convinced that God exists. And I could force myself into believing God exists when I'm not convinced.

Maybe the word convinced seems stronger than the word believe, but I don't think there's much difference.

Don't know how to express this better.


We"ll see

Do hope (pray) that He reveals Himself to you!

 

[DNB]

I haven't even reached a conclusion. I was asking a question, so how can this be a non-sequitur? o you have a problem clarifying your statement? If you think the question was asked in the wrong context, provide the answer in the right context and clarify.
You first response was: "On what justifiable grounds would it not be conditional? What does the one and only, holy and transcendent God have to do with an atheist, a satanist or a murderer?" In which context should I see this? Do you believe atheists a bad people? Or does your God think atheists are bad people?


I have many ideas what those gods would think presented by people who believe. I just don't know which one I should believe, if any.

I'll tell you this: If there is a god who is omniscient, omnipotent etc... I don't think it would care which religion, if any, you followed. I think god would be intelligent enough for not to demand to be worshipped. That just seems ridiculous for such a powerfull and all-knowing god.



How is that an argument for the existence of God?

My point is, if God exists, what do you think that His view would be about people who claim that He doesn't exist. Just that simple.
If you created a universe and set precepts for people to follow: don't kill, love another, honour Me, ..., then how can you say that you will just accept anyone, even if they claim that your are pleased with worshipping a cow, or sacrificing bulls and goats, or burning incense, or praying in a certain direction, or living in poverty and chastity, ...
All roads do not lead to Rome, that's common sense.

 

[1213]

I don't know what that means. Universalism I believe was rejected by Christian authority. The Bible divided believers and nonbelievers with conditions to recieve gods love and salvation. Universalist felt all people are accepted by God. Not sure what that phrase you said means.

It does not mean that everything is good and it does not mean that everyone will get eternal life. It means only that people have the freedom to choose how they use their life and they can reject God, if they want so.

 

[1213]

The bible and gods love only applies to believers. ...

I disagree with that. God's love is same for all and it means, He cares of all and does not do anything evil to anyone.

 

[1213]

The bible is full of conditions. John 3:16 is a condition statement. Being chosen ones and criteria for who is a believer and who isn't comes with conditions.

Can you give an example to where God has no conditions for all people?

God has no conditions in that He threats equally all, doesn't do anything evil to anyone and is just for all equally. That does not mean He allows evil people to live forever. But, even for evil people He offers the same chance for better.

 

[1213]

I don't understand. God has conditions for his love. If not, his son would die for all people whether they believe, kill, or not.
...

And didn't he die for all? I think he did. But it is not useful, if person doesn't want to receive the benefit of it. And more precisely, forgiveness is offered for all equally. But, forgiveness does not mean that then it is ok to continue to do evil things. And love does not mean that it is ok to do evil things.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It does not mean that everything is good and it does not mean that everyone will get eternal life. It means only that people have the freedom to choose how they use their life and they can reject God, if they want so.

Unconditional love doesn't have that. Eternal love isn't in the hands of believers but of God. That's UL. Not sure why your god would make since a condition where people can choose and be strip from god's love because of their choice.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I disagree with that. God's love is same for all and it means, He cares of all and does not do anything evil to anyone.

It never has. It applies to his chosen people, those that have faith, his brothers and sisters, prophets, and those that believe. Everyone else, pharisees, and some sinners does not have god's unconditional love. If he cares for all people and doesn't do evil to anyone (whether they reject or not), then, he has unconditional love. If his unconditional love depends on the person and not his own choice then it is conditional.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

God has no conditions in that He threats equally all, doesn't do anything evil to anyone and is just for all equally. That does not mean He allows evil people to live forever. But, even for evil people He offers the same chance for better.

This isn't scriptural. Where does it say in the bible he does not do evil to "any" person (which means no prophets, no chosen ones, and no killing of sinners)?

An unconditional god does not call people evil regardless if they reject him or not.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And didn't he die for all? I think he did. But it is not useful, if person doesn't want to receive the benefit of it. And more precisely, forgiveness is offered for all equally. But, forgiveness does not mean that then it is ok to continue to do evil things. And love does not mean that it is ok to do evil things.

No. He died for all who believed, and those that do will have everlasting life.

Unconditional love doesn't say "I offer, but if you reject, you don't benefit." It says "I offer, 'even if' you will reject you will benefit because I am a god of love and forgiveness. Your sins are forgiven." Hopefully people who knew this, like universalist, their actions would be better cause they know god is with them. To those who feel they are bound by conditions and rejection either stay by fear or they rather go there on way to find unconditional love elsewhere.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I disagree with that. God's love is same for all and it means, He cares of all and does not do anything evil to anyone.

In addition, someone with unconditional love doesn't just "say" they love all people but show how they love all people despite what the other person does. Which means their forgiveness isn't just said but expressed. Christian says jesus expressed this forgiveness and it should be for all people regardless their belief. I haven't read in the bible there are exclusions to this rule. I think maybe children not of age, if I'm not mistaken. Many christians would give those with cognitive disabilities a pass, though I haven't heard such a thing in scripture. These are conditions. If you have exclusions to the rules that isn't unconditional love.

He loves "all-who believe" not all people.

 

[muhammad_isa]

He loves "all-who believe" not all people.

True .. but God's love is not identical to human love. We are made in God's image
[ spiritually ], so we are able to understand TO SOME EXTENT what "God's love" means.

All attributes of God [ spiritual / emotional ] are not identical to human attributes.

..just take "His anger" .. it is possible to write a book on that attribute alone
eg. God does not have a temper, for example

 

[Unveiled Artist]

True .. but God's love is not identical to human love. We are made in God's image
[ spiritually ], so we are able to understand TO SOME EXTENT what "God's love" means.

All attributes of God [ spiritual / emotional ] are not identical to human attributes.

..just take "His anger" .. it is possible to write a book on that attribute alone
eg. God does not have a temper, for example

But "to all who believe" is in scripture. So, unless scripture was written by definition of human love, what you say contradicts what's written.

Do you take the bible verbatum?

Some christians do and others don't. Maybe some christians feel in their heart that god loves all people even who they call evil ones. To me, that point of view just doesn't add up to what I read in scripture. Then calling disbelievers evil just makes it worse.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you take the bible verbatum?

I don't take ANY scripture literally. Language is a complex affair, and on top of that, we have the translators "take" too.

Maybe some christians feel in their heart that god loves all people even who they call evil ones..

Well, as I say, verses of scripture are words. People imagine different things according to their knowledge / experience.

Almighty God is the Fairest of All Judges, so He is obviously not a racist, for example.
..neither is He quick to condemn. God accepts repentance from ANY sincere person. One does not have to hold a particular creed, for example.

However, He knows who is sincere and who is not.
Almighty God does not like insincerity.
..hence He does not "love" those people until they repent.
Additionally, God is aware of all things, including the future.
God MOST CERTAINLY does not love satan. He is eternally condemned. That is because God knows that he will never repent.