God's conditional love

[Unveiled Artist]

Almighty God is Wise. What is love?
You are suggesting an impossible scenario.

In this life, should society "love" everybody equally and give everybody sweeties regardless of their deeds?

There cannot be justice in that case.
One should not make God into an illogical concept.

That is why in order to understand, we need to realise that just as mankind has to take responsibility and have a criminal justice system, in order to create a society that is not "hell on earth", the concepts of heaven and hell similarly need to be rational.

Simply, unconditional love is a pipe-dream. It can't exist alongside fairness.

So you agree that God has conditional love?

I didn't bring up the pedophile scenario. I mentioned God does not give unconditional love. The Bible is full of conditions.

I'm not sure how the criminal justice plays into this. It sounds like you're deflecting the topic.

A god with unconditional love will forgive sinners regardless the crime. A conditional God will not. Human justice system is irrelevant here since gods love (if it were unconditional) should apply to all sinners whether one is a pedophile or thief.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you agree that God has conditional love?

Not exactly, no.
Firstly, we have to remember that God is not a creature .. He is God.
The word "love" holds many conatations. One atheist recently told me that it was generated by body chemistry.
God does not have body-chemistry, so..

Secondly, what pleases God will eventually "please us".
i.e. lead to our success in this life and the next

..the converse is also true.

The Bible is full of conditions..

..and why do you think that may be?
Almighty God has no needs whatsoever. It is mankind that have needs. Anybody who considers that they have no needs is fooling themselves.
These conditions are what is necessary for our salvation.
..much like a good education leads to a better life generally, and ignorance leads to trouble.

A god with unconditional love will forgive sinners regardless the crime.

..still can't see it?
God's forgiveness is not about hate or stubborness. It is about what human beings need.
God does not turn away from anybody. It is human beings that turn away from Him. This has consequences.
Call it "doesn't love", call it "wretched", call it what you will. It is all the same. That person will not be blessed.

 

[AppieB]

I guess I just have a different perspective. If a person decided to leave home, take drugs, live homeless, and live a life of squalor, it wouldn't be for the lack of love of his/her parents nor would it be a judgment of the parents.

It was simply the choice of the child like the parable of the prodigal son.

But the Father was always waiting and received the son back when he decided to come home.

Can you understand this sounds to me like you are saying that being an atheist is a bad thing? In a somewhat polite way, true. But I don't think it's a stigma atheists deserve and it could make you look down on people.

I didn't "decide to leave home". My lack of belief in God is not a choice. I am the person I am and cannot change myself. The only thing I can do is use my mind in the best way possible I think will lead to true answers. A god who faults and punishes me for that would be an immoral god (imo)

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be combative nor am I trying to suggest that the reasons you gave above are the elephants in the room.

Let me say it differently using words of another man:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you; Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink"

In other words, if one really seeks out God, He will make Himself known. He is the elephant in the room (so to speak),

I remember when I was in a bar appropriately named "Mac's Zoo Room" staring into a Tom Collins and wondering, "where are all the miracles that I have heard about in the Bible". Well, of course, the only miracles I had seen staring into a drink were pink elephants.

Eventually God revealed Himself. When He did, I looked into my past and realized there were moments where He actually was there all along, I just didn't see the elephant.

I've also seen those pink elephants! (It's also a beer from Belgium called Delirium Tremens)

It sounds to me that if I don't find God, it's my fault. Like I said before: I am the person I am ... I'm not responsible for the way I turned out to be. If God exists and created me than he is (somewhat) responsible. He could give me sufficient reason to believe. Maybe he will in the future, but until then ...

P.S.: Don't worry about being combative or something like that. As long as we have a civil and honest conversation I'm down with it.

 

[Clara Tea]

Why is God's love for us conditional on us believing in him and doing what he says?

If a person didn't believe in me and didn't do what I told them to then I wouldn't not love them because of that

It wouldn't even bother me yet God would send such people to Hell because of this

So why is it that way with God? Why is his love so conditional?

God keeps Satan around to be the bad boy who does His (God's) bidding, but that bidding is evil (sends people to hell for eternity). Now we have to blame Satan, not God. Since God knows the future, I wonder if God knows that some day Satan might turn good? That would certainly explain why God allows Satan's existence.

I think that the entire soul, heaven, hell situation is about purifying an imperfect God.

I know that I will get a lot of flack for suggesting that God is not perfect, but has evil elements. I will also get flack about suggesting that God is a collection of individual souls who each have their own opinions.

But, I believe that God is composed of trillions of souls, and the good ones have had perhaps an eternity to discuss every issue, and have long ago reached a conclusion. So, when God speaks, he speaks with many voices, but virtually all of the voices are saying exactly the same things, in exactly the same words (or thoughts). Yet, there are outliers, with dissenting opinions. When God's souls are placed in humans, those souls largely guide their actions (good go to heaven to rejoin God, and bad go to hell to be permanently separated from God).

I suspect that God sends the misguided to hell, as well. That is, the throngs of people who cheered Hitler will likely go to hell (heaven wouldn't be much fun with a bunch of Nazis in it). So, it is possible that someone could support a politician who sinned, and go to hell for all eternity. If someone is so easily swayed, and so reluctant to take God's suggestions and commandments, they could be swayed in heaven as well, and start a rebellion. Thus, the duped would have to go to hell, as well. This would mean that the followers of President W. Bush would have to go to hell for allowing wars (thou shalt not kill)(turn the other cheek), and allowing torture camps. It not only is against international laws (Geneva Convention), it is against God's laws, as well.

 

[Clara Tea]

Not exactly, no.
Firstly, we have to remember that God is not a creature .. He is God.
The word "love" holds many conatations. One atheist recently told me that it was generated by body chemistry.
God does not have body-chemistry, so..

Secondly, what pleases God will eventually "please us".
i.e. lead to our success in this life and the next

..the converse is also true.



..and why do you think that may be?
Almighty God has no needs whatsoever. It is mankind that have needs. Anybody who considers that they have no needs is fooling themselves.
These conditions are what is necessary for our salvation.
..much like a good education leads to a better life generally, and ignorance leads to trouble.



..still can't see it?
God's forgiveness is not about hate or stubborness. It is about what human beings need.
God does not turn away from anybody. It is human beings that turn away from Him. This has consequences.
Call it "doesn't love", call it "wretched", call it what you will. It is all the same. That person will not be blessed.

Sex is generated by body chemistry (and emotion), but love can be purely emotional. The unconditional love of a child is likely also body chemistry (we have to love a poop machine, or we'd toss it out the window). A man's love of boobs is likely genetically programmed to select men who mate with women who have sufficient breasts to feed the young. We may not even be aware that we have pre-programmed instincts that drive us.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I believe that God is composed of trillions of souls..

..so not a trinity then .. a trillionty

If someone is so easily swayed, and so reluctant to take God's suggestions and commandments, they could be swayed in heaven as well, and start a rebellion. Thus, the duped would have to go to hell, as well. This would mean that the followers of President W. Bush would have to go to hell for allowing wars (thou shalt not kill)(turn the other cheek), and allowing torture camps. It not only is against international laws (Geneva Convention), it is against God's laws, as well.

I don't believe that Almighy God will literally "send people to hell forever"

It is a result of our own deeds.
A person who is careless or ignorant and follows evil UNKNOWINGLY is not firmly on one side or the other.
However it is possible that somebody might find themselves in hell for a very long time, and eventually come out of it.

 

[Kenny]

Can you understand this sounds to me like you are saying that being an atheist is a bad thing? In a somewhat polite way, true. But I don't think it's a stigma atheists deserve and it could make you look down on people.

I didn't "decide to leave home". My lack of belief in God is not a choice. I am the person I am and cannot change myself. The only thing I can do is use my mind in the best way possible I think will lead to true answers. A god who faults and punishes me for that would be an immoral god (imo)

Maybe I misunderstood... I thought you said you were looking. Certainly, I am not trying to say "you are bad" in any form or fashion.

Obviously, if I am wrong, then you are right but that doesn't mean I am a bad person. An error in choice, yes, but not bad. I guess every analogy falls short at some point.

But I'm not sure "I cannot change myself". Probably everybody can say "I have changed myself". Certainly I am not the same person as the one "before".

As I said before... (of course this is in context of my belief) it isn't that God is punishing... doesn't our decisions have consequences whether good or bad? When I got a speeding ticket, it isn't like I can blame the police officer

I've also seen those pink elephants! (It's also a beer from Belgium called Delirium Tremens)

It sounds to me that if I don't find God, it's my fault. Like I said before: I am the person I am ... I'm not responsible for the way I turned out to be. If God exists and created me than he is (somewhat) responsible. He could give me sufficient reason to believe. Maybe he will in the future, but until then ...

P.S.: Don't worry about being combative or something like that. As long as we have a civil and honest conversation I'm down with it.

No, what I am saying is if you are asking, knocking and seeking, God will make sure you will see Him and give you sufficient reason to believe. And yes, until then, ask, knock and seek. (Obviously in context of Christian thought and, for that matter, my Christian thought which might not be the same as another)

Just a grandpa's musing at this point....

My wife had two miscarriages before we had our first child. My wife secretly had asked Our Father, "I wonder what gender they were".

Some 20 years later I went to pray for an elderly woman in the hospital who had no idea of the miscarriages (we don't rehearse that). Let alone that the miscarriages were before the firstborn.

She said to me, "I dreamt I was in Heaven last night and I saw my husband and parents. But what I found interesting is that I saw two boys that were just like your eldest son except they looked a little bit older".

I shared that with my wife who, with tears, shared hear inner heart prayer.

LOL... Obviously we can say it wasn't God, coincidence or other statements... I simply believe that Our Father loved my wife so much that He wanted to fulfill the desire of her heart. If it wasn't, LOL, leave in my blessed ignorance

 

[Trailblazer]

Almighty God can have "love" for all of us, but that does NOT mean that our intentions and deeds are of no consequence.

The OP is talking about everybody being "treated the same".
It is not logical to assume that that is even possible.

No, everyone is not the same according to my beliefs, which are the same beliefs that @Truthseeker9 holds.
Why then would God treat everyone the same?

“Let no one imagine that by Our assertion that all created things are the signs of the revelation of God is meant that—God forbid—all men, be they good or evil, pious or infidel, are equal in the sight of God. Nor doth it imply that the Divine Being—magnified be His name and exalted be His glory—is, under any circumstances, comparable unto men, or can, in any way, be associated with His creatures. Such an error hath been committed by certain foolish ones who, after having ascended into the heavens of their idle fancies, have interpreted Divine Unity to mean that all created things are the signs of God, and that, consequently, there is no distinction whatsoever between them.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 187

 

[AppieB]

Maybe I misunderstood... I thought you said you were looking. Certainly, I am not trying to say "you are bad" in any form or fashion.

I didn't say I wasn't looking.

Obviously, if I am wrong, then you are right but that doesn't mean I am a bad person. An error in choice, yes, but not bad. I guess every analogy falls short at some point.

Again, I don't think it's a choice to believe or not. Either you're convinced or you're not convinced. Maybe an error, but not on purpose and not bad. Just wrong.

But I'm not sure "I cannot change myself". Probably everybody can say "I have changed myself". Certainly I am not the same person as the one "before".

Of course everybody changes. I'm not the same person as 5 years ago. That's not what I meant. We are changed by what happens to us. But I cannot force myself to be convinced of something I don't believe is true.

As I said before... (of course this is in context of my belief) it isn't that God is punishing... doesn't our decisions have consequences whether good or bad? When I got a speeding ticket, it isn't like I can blame the police officer

Well, if nobody told me there was a speed limit and a police officer, I think that an eternal speeding ticket would be unfair.

No, what I am saying is if you are asking, knocking and seeking, God will make sure you will see Him and give you sufficient reason to believe. And yes, until then, ask, knock and seek. (Obviously in context of Christian thought and, for that matter, my Christian thought which might not be the same as another)

Just a grandpa's musing at this point....

My wife had two miscarriages before we had our first child. My wife secretly had asked Our Father, "I wonder what gender they were".

Some 20 years later I went to pray for an elderly woman in the hospital who had no idea of the miscarriages (we don't rehearse that). Let alone that the miscarriages were before the firstborn.

She said to me, "I dreamt I was in Heaven last night and I saw my husband and parents. But what I found interesting is that I saw two boys that were just like your eldest son except they looked a little bit older".

I shared that with my wife who, with tears, shared hear inner heart prayer.

LOL... Obviously we can say it wasn't God, coincidence or other statements... I simply believe that Our Father loved my wife so much that He wanted to fulfill the desire of her heart. If it wasn't, LOL, leave in my blessed ignorance

I'm sorry to hear about the miscarriages. There's not much more I can say about your experience. I wouldn't want to diminish or takeaway your consolation.

 

[Kenny]

Again, I don't think it's a choice to believe or not. Either you're convinced or you're not convinced. Maybe an error, but not on purpose and not bad. Just wrong.

I think the two are kinda intertwined.

As verbs the difference between convinced and believe
is that convinced is (convince) while believeis (label) to accept as true, particularly without absolute certainty (ie, as opposed to knowing).

As an adjective convinced
is in a state of believing, especially from evidence but not necessarily.

But, regardless... IMV, He is still meeting people at their point of desire

Of course everybody changes. I'm not the same person as 5 years ago. That's not what I meant. We are changed by what happens to us. But I cannot force myself to be convinced of something I don't believe is true.

OK... I am not sure I understand. I don't think God is trying to convince you of something that you don't believe is true.

But, regardless, knock, seek and you will find.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..........Firstly, we have to remember that God is not a creature .. He is God.
The word "love" holds many conatations. One atheist recently told me that it was generated by body chemistry.
God does not have body-chemistry, so.. Secondly, what pleases God will eventually "please us".
i.e. lead to our success in this life and the next......................................

I agree that God is Not a creature, Not a creation. God being from everlasting according to Psalms 90:2.
I find the Christ-like definition of love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.
Which is in sharp contrast with the selfish distorted love the world in general displays - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.

The next life or the 'soon coming better life' I find to be Jesus' coming 1,000-year reign over Earth.
There will be ' healing ' for earth's nations. No one will say, "I am sick......" - Isaiah 33:24; Revelation 22:2.
Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..........Well, if nobody told me there was a speed limit and a police officer, I think that an eternal speeding ticket would be unfair...........

And when we read through the Bible we read that the majority of mankind did Not know of Jesus.
So, yes it would be unfair to punish anyone who did Not know. Not have knowledge.
Since the price tag of sin is: death (Romans 6:23,7) then the dead have already paid the price for sinning by dying.
No post-mortem sinning penalty ticket, No double jeopardy for the dead.- John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18
Because we can't resurrect oneself or another is why we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will.
Then, resurrected people who never had the opportunity to learn about Jesus will have that opportunity.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.......I don't believe that Almighty God will literally "send people to hell forever".....It is a result of our own deeds.
A person who is careless or ignorant and follows evil UNKNOWINGLY is not firmly on one side or the other.
However it is possible that somebody might find themselves in hell for a very long time, and eventually come out of it.

I can agree that we end up in hell because of our own deeds aka sin.
Not end up in some forever burning hell, but biblical hell: the temporary stone-cold sleeping place aka grave.
Just as righteous dead Jesus was in hell/grave after he died - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
'Sleep in death' just as Jesus and the OT teach at John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
The people of Hebrews chapter 11 have been in biblical hell/ grave sleeping for 'a very long time'.
Yes, they will 'come out of it' wake up during Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth for them.

 

[1213]

...Unconditional love doesn't see people they love as enemies....

Even if they attack and try to kill the one who loves?

 

[1213]

...
God's love is very conditional.

Sorry, I disagree with that.

 

[1213]

Unconditional love doesn't have "evil" people. It doesn't let evil people continue forever because unconditional love will not let people be in sin. Unconditional love doesn't allow suffering and won't even have that as an option. It doesn't have "whosever believes" but loves all people whether they believe or not.

Hmmm... it seems to me that you have different idea of love. I don't think totalitarian fascism is really love. Love gives freedom, and it can mean that some people choose evil.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Even if they attack and try to kill the one who loves?

Yes

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the dead have already paid the price for sinning by dying.
..

That is just .. well, weird

Christians believe that everyone who lives will meet God. There will be a ‘Day of Judgement’ when all humanity will come into God’s presence. Every person will have to give an explanation for all they thought, said and did – the successes and the failures. Jesus Christ made it clear that everyone’s behaviour – particularly towards the poor and vulnerable – will be laid bare before God.

Heaven and hell are very real. Jesus taught that the righteous go to heaven, and the wicked go to hell.

Hell is a place of sorrow and torment. This truth is seen throughout the Bible in the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin. Christ talked a great deal about this subject. He describes “Gehenna” as a place where “their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44, 46, 48). He spoke several times about weeping and gnashing of teeth for those who are “cast into outer darkness” (Matthew 8:12, 13:42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30). He also gives the parable about inhabiting a “place of torment” (Luke 16:28). Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else in Scripture.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Even if they attack and try to kill the one who loves?

I don't understand. God has conditions for his love. If not, his son would die for all people whether they believe, kill, or not.

But can you explain more what you mean?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry, I disagree with that.

The bible is full of conditions. John 3:16 is a condition statement. Being chosen ones and criteria for who is a believer and who isn't comes with conditions.

Can you give an example to where God has no conditions for all people?