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God's conditional love

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I don't take ANY scripture literally. Language is a complex affair, and on top of that, we have the translators "take" too.

If god's love isn't conditional how would you define it to where it is valid that he shows this love differently between those who believe and those who do not?

Well, as I say, verses of scripture are words. People imagine different things according to their knowledge / experience.

Almighty God is the Fairest of All Judges, so He is obviously not a racist, for example.
..neither is He quick to condemn. God accepts repentance from ANY sincere person. One does not have to hold a particular creed, for example.

However, He knows who is sincere and who is not.
Almighty God does not like insincerity.
..hence He does not "love" those people until they repent.
Additionally, God is aware of all things, including the future.
God MOST CERTAINLY does not love satan. He is eternally condemned. That is because God knows that he will never repent.

True. So it's hard to know what scripture says about the issue if we were to take everyone's interpretations into account, no?

He does not "love" those people until they repent.

This isn't unconditional love.

Unconditional love has no divides.

Why wouldn't he love satan? If he had unconditional love, he would love all creation. He'd have no criteria for who he should love and who he shouldn't.

What would happen if god said, "satan, I know you messed up but I'm willing to forgive you" ?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
What would happen if god said, "satan, I know you messed up but I'm willing to forgive you" ?

I've already explained that .. if satan was going to repent, then God would know that.

It is a logical absurdity that God can unconditionally forgive somebody who commits major sins.
What does "God forgives" mean to you?
If God forgives somebody, that effectively means that they will go to paradise.

That is not logically possible for a person that does not repent. They cannot be in paradise while they are committing atrocities.

Perhaps you think that God should give satan a 'frontal lobotomy'? ;)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I've already explained that .. if satan was going to repent, then God would know that.

It is a logical absurdity that God can unconditionally forgive somebody who commits major sins.
What does "God forgives" mean to you?
If God forgives somebody, that effectively means that they will go to paradise.

That is not logically possible for a person that does not repent. They cannot be in paradise while they are committing atrocities.

Perhaps you think that God should give satan a 'frontal lobotomy'? ;)

That's why his love is conditional. This proves it. These are the conditions you've just laid out. I'm not sure why people would think their god has unconditional love according to scriptures.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
That is just .. well, weird o_O
Christians believe that everyone who lives will meet God. There will be a ‘Day of Judgement’ when all humanity will come into God’s presence. Every person will have to give an explanation for all they thought, said and did – the successes and the failures. Jesus Christ made it clear that everyone’s behaviour – particularly towards the poor and vulnerable – will be laid bare before God.
Heaven and hell are very real. Jesus taught that the righteous go to heaven, and the wicked go to hell.
Hell is a place of sorrow and torment. This truth is seen throughout the Bible in the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin. Christ talked a great deal about this subject. He describes “Gehenna” as a place where “their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44, 46, 48). He spoke several times about weeping and gnashing of teeth for those who are “cast into outer darkness” (Matthew 8:12, 13:42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30). He also gives the parable about inhabiting a “place of torment” (Luke 16:28)

Sounds to me as if you are telling us that worms have 'eternal life' - Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:48 ___________
What the birds don't finish off the worms will eat.
Remember in Bible times, Bible speak, the most through means of destruction was represented by: fire.
Jesus was using fire in an illustrative way to mean complete destruction.
Please notice Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35 because the wicked are : destroyed forever.
The choice is ' repent ' or ' perish' ( be destroyed ) at 2 Peter 3:9.
The illustrative story at Luke 16:28 is just that; a parable or illustration story. Not a real happening.

Yes, agree heaven and hell are real.
Can you think of anyone righteous who on the day he died went to hell _________
I find at Acts of the Apostles 2:27 the day Jesus died he went to hell, biblical hell.
If 'biblical hell' is as you posted above then dead Jesus would still be in hell.
Because the 'Bible's hell' is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave then yes, at death people go to hell.
Not to some 'religious-myth hell' of burning forever, but to sleep. (even the word cemetery means sleeping place)
Jesus and the OT both teach Not pain but both teach ' sleep in death '.
- John 11:11-14; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5 - the dead know nothing.
Please notice Revelation 20:13-14 because everyone in biblical helll/grave is 'delivered up' (meaning resurrected out of hell/grave) then emptied-out biblical hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.

Matthew 13:40-42 is part of Jesus' parable illustration about the figurative wheat and weed/tares.
Again, in Jesus' day fire stood for destruction.
Gehenna was a garbage pit where thing were destroyed forever. Wicked destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
When King James translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire that put the flames in the grave.

Please notice at Matthew 25:41 that symbolic everlasting fire is for: Satan and demonic angels.
Sinner Satan will be ' destroyed ' by Jesus - Hebrew 2:14 B; Romans 16:20
No wicked sinner ever gains everlasting life anywhere, just: destruction - Psalms 104:35.
The wicked will be No more according to Psalms 37:10-11; Psalms 37:38; Proverbs 2:21-22

Yes, there is a Day of Judgement or Judgement Day and that coming 'day' is still future according to Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that ' there will be' a resurrection......
That ' Day of Judgement ' is Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of Judgement.
Jesus' Thousand-Year Day when Jesus governs over Earth in righteousness for one-thousand years.
So, what a person does 'after' they are resurrected will determine one's everlasting life.
Remember: the majority of mankind lived and died without knowing about Jesus. - John 3:13
After they are resurrected then they will have the opportunity to be judged on what they do after resurrection.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I've already explained that .. if satan was going to repent, then God would know that.
It is a logical absurdity that God can unconditionally forgive somebody who commits major sins.
What does "God forgives" mean to you?
If God forgives somebody, that effectively means that they will go to paradise.
That is not logically possible for a person that does not repent. They cannot be in paradise while they are committing atrocities.
Perhaps you think that God should give satan a 'frontal lobotomy'? ;)

In Scripture, perfect persons (heavenly or earthly) once they sin they do Not repent - aka sinners Satan and Adam.
Also, people who commit the unforgivable sin are never forgiven - Matthew 12:32
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Sorry, I disagree with that.
I am wondering what you think of the condition as found at 1 John 1:7 where we read the word: "if"__________
"IF" we are walking in the light..... then Jesus' blood cleanses us from all sin. To me , "IF" is a condition to be met.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
What??
Sorry, but Adam repented. He was a sinner but not a follower of satan. He made a mistake.
Yes, in Scripture Adam made a mistake but it was a deliberate mistake. Adam's sin will willful.
Adam could have told Eve that he was going to obey God and Not Eve. Genesis chapter 3.
Adam already knew he should Not take food off of God's tree, Adam ate fruit that he knew was stolen fruit.
Perfect persons (heavenly or earthly) do Not sin out of ignorance.
It is because we are innocent of what father Adam did is why God sent Jesus to Earth for us (Not for Adam and Satan)
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Because the 'Bible's hell' is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave then yes, at death people go to hell.
Not to some 'religious-myth hell' of burning forever, but to sleep. (even the word cemetery means sleeping place)
Jesus and the OT both teach Not pain but both teach ' sleep in death '.

You can't understand how a "loving god" can allow people to burn in hell, can you?
I can. I have experienced it [pain, suffering] in this life.
If God can allow it in this life, then why not in the next?

Almighty God has made things in pairs.
Male and female .. hot and cold .. up and down .. paradise and hell.

It is all about the nature of our souls. Either they are immortal, or they are not.
It is not logical to assume that God waves His magic wand, and a soul is no longer immortal.
..and only righteous souls are. It is a false dichotomy.
 
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muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Perfect persons (heavenly or earthly) do Not sin out of ignorance.

No .. so he wasn't perfect then :)
Almighty God forgives whomsoever He wills.
However, that does not mean that we don't have to bear the consequences.
In this case, being in paradise no more .. at least, not in this worldly life.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
You can't understand how a "loving god" can allow people to burn in hell, can you?
I can. I have experienced it [pain, suffering] in this life.
If God can allow it in this life, then why not in the next?
Almighty God has made things in pairs.
Male and female .. hot and cold .. up and down .. paradise and hell.
It is all about the nature of our souls. Either they are immortal, or they are not.
It is not logical to assume that God waves His magic wand, and a soul is no longer immortal.
..and only righteous souls are. It is a false dichotomy.

In the Bible: the soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20
One's spirit is a neuter "it" and Not a person - Ecclesiastes 12:7
Our spirit returns to God in the sense as a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere but simply is returned to the hands of the owner. So, any future for the house now lies in the owner's hands.
Thus, to be in God's safe hands is the safest place to be and any future life lies in God's hands.

No, Not me saying that biblical hell is a permanent place but the Bible teaches biblical hell is temporary.
Didn't Job experience pain and suffering in his life - Job 2:4-5 ________
Sinner Satan challenges all of us ' touch our flesh...' (loose physical health) and we would Not serve God.
Both Job and Jesus under very adverse suffering conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we.
Sure God can allow eternal suffering but his reward is Not suffering.
Please notice Rev. 22:20 as to why we are ALL invited to pray the invitation for Jesus to come!
As promised at Revelation 22:2 Jesus will bring ' healing ' to earth's nations.
'Healing ' to the point that No one will say, " I am sick...." - Isaiah 33:24
Even ' enemy death ' will be No more according to 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
Please also reach Isaiah 35th chapter because Earth and its people will be healthy.
We also ask that God's will (His purpose) be done here on Earth as it is in Heaven...
In Heaven there is No pain, No wars, No suffering, No death so we are asking for those same heavenly conditions to come exist here on Earth, and they will.
Biblical hell will No longer exist. Biblical hell ends up dead. Dead in ' second death ' for the Bible's hell/grave.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
In this case, being in paradise no more .. at least, not in this worldly life.

The next worldly life is described in Isaiah 35th chapter for us.
Not a corrupted world, but a righteous new world.
Jesus will govern over Earth in righteousness for a thousand years.
" A Better World Is Near " Revelation 22:2; Psalms 46:9
Humble meek people will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised at Matthew 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11.
As the Garden of Eden was a beautiful paradisical garden, Earth will become beautifully paradisical as Eden was.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
No, Not me saying that biblical hell is a permanent place but the Bible teaches biblical hell is temporary..

I don't think so..

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

-Book of Revelation 20-

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

-Matthew 25-

Our souls are immortal. They come from God, and return to God.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I don't think so..
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

-Book of Revelation 20-
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

-Matthew 25-
Our souls are immortal. They come from God, and return to God.

In the Bible, life-less Adam became a ' living soul ' and at death Adam became a dead soul - Genesis 3:19
No post-mortem penalty for Adam, No double jeopardy for Adam just going back to non-existence.

I find there is a BIG difference between: torment and torture.
In Scripture a tormentor was simply a jailer -> Matthew 18:34; Matthew 18:30
Satan will be jailed in second death, so to speak, or destroyed forever by Jesus - see Hebrews 2:14 B; Romans 16:20
No sinner can gain everlasting life anywhere but destruction for the wicked. I find sinner Satan is wicked.
- Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Psalms 37:9-11.
So, everlasting punishment is: destruction -> 1 Thessalonians 1:9
 

AppieB

Active Member
My point is, if God exists, what do you think that His view would be about people who claim that He doesn't exist. Just that simple.
Atheism doesn't necessay mean one claims God doesn't exist. It's not believing god exist. But even if you would think that, would that be a inherent bad thing? Would it justify eternal punishment?
If you created a universe and set precepts for people to follow: don't kill, love another,
Do you (or God) think that you have to be a christian/theist in order to do good like not kill and love another?
Does God think that atheists are bad people because they don't believe in him?

..., then how can you say that you will just accept anyone, even if they claim that your are pleased with worshipping a cow, or sacrificing bulls and goats, or burning incense, or praying in a certain direction, or living in poverty and chastity, ...
All roads do not lead to Rome, that's common sense.
Why does God care about this?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Does God think that atheists are bad people because they don't believe in him?

Ummm .. imagine, for a moment, a "being" who is aware of every leaf that falls, every "thought" that has been thought, and will be thought..

Now ask again "what God thinks" ? o_O
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
So, what is the answer?

In light of my last post, can you not work it out for yourself?
Bearing in mind, that Almighty God is omnicsient, and knows
whether our ultimate fate will be "success or failure"..

It is quite possible that an atheist will go to paradise,
and a believer go to hell.
Only God knows what our spiritual condition will be when we die.
 

AppieB

Active Member
In light of my last post, can you not work it out for yourself?
Bearing in mind, that Almighty God is omnicsient, and knows
whether our ultimate fate will be "success or failure"..

It is quite possible that an atheist will go to paradise,
and a believer go to hell.
Only God knows what our spiritual condition will be when we die.
In an earlier post (not to you) I already said the following: "If there is a god who is omniscient, omnipotent etc... I don't think it would care which religion, if any, you followed. I think god would be intelligent enough for not to demand to be worshipped. That just seems ridiculous for such a powerfull and all-knowing god."

So I guess there's no need to believe in God, Allah or otherwise.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I think god would be intelligent enough for not to demand to be worshipped. That just seems ridiculous for such a powerfull and all-knowing god."

So I guess there's no need to believe in God, Allah or otherwise.

An incorrect conclusion based on misunderstanding.
God is not in need of anything at all.
It is mankind that are in need.

We are ALL "worshipping" something. What do people spend most of their time doing and why? That is what I am referring to by the word "worship" ..

Almighty God says to worship Him alone .. not because "other gods" are real .. not in an anthropomorphic, polytheistic sense.
It is all about our beliefs and intentions.
If we do NOT remember God, we will take a different path in life.
It would be practically impossible to tread the same path WITHOUT the rememberance of God.
There are basically "2 forces" .. that of righteousness, and that of evil.
It is easy to get sucked into evil..
Almighty God knows all. He is the Most Wise. He wishes human beings
[ His creation ] to succeed.

In summary, God does not need our "worship" .. WE do.
 
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