Gods Kingdom is now ruling. Are you one of its citizens?

[james2ko]

BEHOLD the word 3708. horaó 3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

Strong's Greek: 3708. ???? (horaó) -- to see, perceive, attend to

Where in Rev 21:1-3 is that Greek term used?

 

[Pegg]

This refers to the "New" Jerusalem delivered to the "New" Heavens and "New" Earth. Different than the Jerusalem Christ came to rule and dwell for 1,000 years. Apparently, the New Jerusalem will not have a temple.

Jesus only preached about one kingdom... it was the kingdom he would be the ruler of...the heavenly kingdom which is also called 'New Jerusalem' as opposed to the earthly Jerusalem which existed when the scriptures were written.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

what do you think the Lords prayer is asking for when Jesus said:

Let your kingdom come!

what was he talking about?

That is an interesting point....
The earliest version of the Lords prayer that I know is found in the Didache.
and I tried to make an intelligent interpretation of it using the notes of Aaron Milavec
The prayer would seem to be eschatological and referring to one time events

The Lords prayer
from the Didache

Aaron Milavec The Didache Text, translation, analysis,and commentary.


Our Father,the one in heaven,
your name be made holy,
your kingdom come,
your will be born upon earth as in heaven,
give us this day our loaf that is coming,
and forgive us our debt at the final judgement
as we likewise now forgive our debtors.
and do not lead us into the trial of the last days
but deliver us from that evil
because yours is the power and glory forever.

*-o-0-o-*

This is an attempt to give the essence of this Lords Prayer using the above translation,and some of the logic from the commentary of Aaron Milavec's book, as a guide to the sense.
“our heavenly father”makes clear which father;”May your name....”his name is already holy, this make the wish clear for it to be so everywhere; “your kingdom...”makes clear the imperative for it to be established here;
“may we soon be gathered in to your kingdom “ is a reference to the thought given in the didache Eucharist, comparing the gathering of the grain into a loaf to the gathering of the people into the kingdom and the desire that it should be soon.
I have left open “what” we are to be forgiven. As it is a reciprocal of what we forgive.
The second coming and the end of times was thought to be imminent.. “but spare us....”the trial and the evil of the last days are inevitable, except for the elect, who they hope to be amongst. All the petitions would seem to be eschatological and referring to one time events.
The prayer is a collective petition to God, by his people, for the establishment of his kingdom on earth. And for their successful place within it. When we repeat it as individuals we do so as one of many of the petitioners.



Our Heavenly Father,
may your name be holy throughout the world
and your kingdom established among us,
so that the earth, like heaven, obeys your will.

may we soon be gathered in to your kingdom
and be forgiven at the final judgement,
as we have forgiven others.
but spare us on the day of trial
and from the evil of the last days.

because yours is the power and glory forever.

This prayer was Given to us by Jesus and is about God and his Kingdom. It is not about Jesus Kingdom.

 

[james2ko]

Jesus only preached about one kingdom... it was the kingdom he would be the ruler of...

That's correct. The millennial kingdom in the "old" earth, which is a prelude to the New Jerusalem to come down and be placed on the "new" earth of which Jehovah God seems to be ruler.

the heavenly kingdom which is also called 'New Jerusalem' as opposed to the earthly Jerusalem which existed when the scriptures were written.

That heavenly kingdom you speak of--The New Jerusalem--seems to me will descend and be place on the New Heavens and Earth and Jehovah God (along with Christ and His bride) will dwell with men:

Rev 21:2-3 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men/human beings [anthropos], and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.​

 

[Desert Snake]

This refers to the "New" Jerusalem delivered to the "New" Heavens and "New" Earth. Different than the Jerusalem Christ came to rule and dwell for 1,000 years. Apparently, the New Jerusalem will not have a temple.

The description does not seem to be indicating the same place as the Old Jerusalem.

 

[james2ko]

The description does not seem to be indicating the same place as the Old Jerusalem.

That's precisely my point to Pegg. They are two different "Jerusalems".

 

[Pegg]

That is an interesting point....
The earliest version of the Lords prayer that I know is found in the Didache.
and I tried to make an intelligent interpretation of it using the notes of Aaron Milavec
The prayer would seem to be eschatological and referring to one time events


This prayer was Given to us by Jesus and is about God and his Kingdom. It is not about Jesus Kingdom.

Yes, thats a good point... its the kingdom of God which is exactly what Jesus was preaching when he said:

Mark 1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus went into Gal′i·lee, preaching the good news of God 15 and saying: “The appointed time has been fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God has drawn near. Repent, and have faith in the good news.”

And its this same kingdom that the prophet Daniel saw in vision:

Dan 2:44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,

But what's interesting about Daniels visions, is that he saw someone from mankind being crowned as the king of that kingdom in heaven:

Daniel 7:13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.

So while it is Gods Kingdom that Jesus told us to pray for....it is Jesus himself who is given rulership of that Kingdom.

 

[Pegg]

That's precisely my point to Pegg. They are two different "Jerusalems".

yes, the new Jerusalem comes down 'out of heaven'

From heaven it rules over all mankind...from the throne of God as the scriptures clearly state:

Ps 11:4 Jehovah is in his holy temple.
Jehovah’s throne is in the heavens.
His own eyes see, his watchful eyes examine the sons of men.

Psalm 103:19 Jehovah has firmly established his throne in the heavens; And his kingship rules over everything.

Revelation 4:2, 3 After this I immediately came to be in the power of the spirit, and look! a throne was in its position in heaven, and someone was seated on the throne. 3 And the One seated had the appearance of a jasper stone and a sardius stone, and all around the throne was a rainbow like an emerald in appearance.

 

[james2ko]

yes, the new Jerusalem comes down 'out of heaven' From heaven it rules over all mankind...from the throne of God as the scriptures clearly state:

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
​

Where is it coming down or descending to Pegg? The scriptures are clear...to the New heavens and new earth! So Jehovah can finally dwell with men.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.​

Notice the grammatical nuance as it states "He will dwell with us"--not we will dwell with Him. Indicating He is coming from His residence (heavenly throne/kingdom) and joining us in our new residence!

Ps 11:4 Jehovah is in his holy temple. Jehovah’s throne is in the heavens. His own eyes see, his watchful eyes examine the sons of men.

Psalm 103:19 Jehovah has firmly established his throne in the heavens; And his kingship rules over everything.


Revelation 4:2, 3 After this I immediately came to be in the power of the spirit, and look! a throne was in its position in heaven, and someone was seated on the throne. 3 And the One seated had the appearance of a jasper stone and a sardius stone, and all around the throne was a rainbow like an emerald in appearance.

Notice the narrative of each passage speaks of the condition of God's residence and throne in the present tense relative to their respective authors. But Rev 21 and 22 reveal Jehovah will vacate and reestablish his kingdom and throne on the new heaven and earth and finally dwell with men! How awesome! Why on "earth" would the WT want to deny or prove that wrong? NPI

 

[Pegg]

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
​

Where is it coming down or descending to Pegg? The scriptures are clear...to the New heavens and new earth! So Jehovah can finally dwell with men.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.​

Notice the grammatical nuance as it states "He will dwell with us"--not we will dwell with Him. Indicating He is coming from His residence (heavenly throne/kingdom) and joining us in our new residence!



Notice the narrative of each passage speaks of the condition of God's residence and throne in the present tense relative to their respective authors. But Rev 21 and 22 reveal Jehovah will vacate and reestablish his kingdom and throne on the new heaven and earth and finally dwell with men! How awesome! Why on "earth" would the WT want to deny or prove that wrong? NPI

maybe because it doesnt make sense that God needs to set up a physical dwelling here on earth.

He didn't have a physical dwelling when he first created mankind... he ruled from heaven. And when he says he is going restore all things to the way they should be, then we can be pretty sure that his rulership over mankind will be as it was back then.

Jehovah did dwell with Adam and Eve...in the garden of Eden. And that is what the whole earth will become.

 

[james2ko]

maybe because it doesnt make sense that God needs to set up a physical dwelling here on earth.

Don't you think it is presumptuous for the WT to think they know what God "needs" to do:

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. (Isa 55:8)​

He didn't have a physical dwelling when he first created mankind... he ruled from heaven. And when he says he is going restore all things to the way they should be, then we can be pretty sure that his rulership over mankind will be as it was back then.

All of the verses you have presented so far have Him "presently" dwelling and ruling in heaven. I have yet to see one indicating He will continue to rule from heaven in the future.

Jehovah did dwell with Adam and Eve...in the garden of Eden. And that is what the whole earth will become.

That's my point. If He dwelled with humans on earth in the past, what is so illogical about Him dwelling with humans on earth in the future, as the scriptures explicitly state?

 

[Riverwolf]

Jesus promised that he would return with the power of Gods kingdom. A lot of christians i imagine are still waiting for that to happen.

But what if someone told you that it has already happened and Jesus is already here ruling and changing the world?

What would be your initial response??

How's this? "Many will come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ', and shall deceive many."

Gods rule this or that region from time to time over eons. But as far as I can tell, no single God can claim all the Earth except Gaia Herself.

 

[Pegg]

Don't you think it is presumptuous for the WT to think they know what God "needs" to do:

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. (Isa 55:8)​

Well aren't you assuming that he needs a physical presence on earth?

When the scriptures clearly state over and over that the throne of God is in heaven, he rules from heaven, heaven is his abode.... why do you feel the need to bring him down to a mere earthly existence??

Listen to his own words:

Isaiah 66:1 This is what Jehovah says:
“The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool.
Where, then, is the house that you could build for me,
And where is my resting-place?”

Does he not himself testify that there is no place on earth where he can be housed? So why do you expect him to be housed here on earth?

He is God. not a man.

All of the verses you have presented so far have Him "presently" dwelling and ruling in heaven. I have yet to see one indicating He will continue to rule from heaven in the future.

That's my point. If He dwelled with humans on earth in the past, what is so illogical about Him dwelling with humans on earth in the future, as the scriptures explicitly state?

He didnt dwell physical with Adam and Eve. Genesis even says that Adam would hear the 'voice' of the Jehovah in the Garden. What happened when God appeared on the mountain with Moses? Moses came down from the mountain glowing from the power of being in the presence of Jehovah.

the Isrealites at the bottom of the mountain were fearing for their lives... God cannot physically reside with us.

But he is with us spiritually all the time.

 

[james2ko]

Well aren't you assuming that he needs a physical presence on earth?

Rev 21:1-3 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

Zec 8:3 "Thus says the LORD: 'I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the LORD of hosts, The Holy Mountain.'

Zec 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

Zec 2:10-13 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says the LORD. 11 "Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. 12 And the LORD will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!" ​

1. No assumptions here. Unfortunately the WT dismisses these explicitly clear, prophetic scriptures and replaces them with assumptions on what they believe God should and would do. Not good, Pegg.

When the scriptures clearly state over and over that the throne of God is in heaven, he rules from heaven, heaven is his abode....

2. Those verses all speak in the present and indicate where He dwells and rules from currently. You have yet to present any clear passage(s) to indicate He will always dwell and rule from heaven.

why do you feel the need to bring him down to a mere earthly existence??

3. I don't feel the need---He does. Read the crystal clear verses above. The WT thinks they know what God should and would do better than God Himself? :areyoucra

Listen to his own words: Isaiah 66:1 This is what Jehovah says:“The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool.Where, then, is the house that you could build for me,And where is my resting-place?” Does he not himself testify that there is no place on earth where he can be housed?

4. The context of your passage starts in the last chapter.. Read your passage carefully. God asks a rhetorical question. In other words, there is no house that "YOU"[man] could build for me in which I can dwell. But the new heavens and earth that will contain the glorious new Jerusalem, in which He will rule and dwell, will not be built by man. It is built by God Himself:

"Isa 65:17-18 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.

Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain.​

Which will qualify it as a suitable resting place for Jehovah:

Rev 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.​

This dwelling in the New Jerusalem located on the new earth is confirmed by Jehovah in Isa 65:19:

Isa 65:19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.​

The inseparable [prefixed] preposition "in" [ב] is also translated "among" in the Authorized Version (Jer 5:26; 6:27).

When taking the context of Isa 65-66, Rev 21:1-3, and the passages in point 1 into consideration, the passage could read:

I will rejoice "in"Jerusalem [inside the new city] and joy "among" my people. The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying​

This sentiment is echoed in Rev 21:4:

"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."​

Once again indicating His presence among His people in the New Jerusalem, which descended out of heaven and placed on the new earth!

So why do you expect him to be housed here on earth? He is God. not a man. He didnt dwell physical with Adam and Eve. Genesis even says that Adam would hear the 'voice' of the Jehovah in the Garden. What happened when God appeared on the mountain with Moses? Moses came down from the mountain glowing from the power of being in the presence of Jehovah. the Isrealites at the bottom of the mountain were fearing for their lives...

5. We do not know precisely what form His body will take when He is here. Perhaps He will take on some form of hybrid existence, similar to the spirit entities who were able to take hold of Lot and his family's hands or Christ's body after His resurrection. They looked and felt human but could also transform themselves to spirit form. The point is the scriptures proclaim He will rule and dwell from here. The how and why is not for us to try and figure out. His word simply and explicitly states He will and that should be sufficient for us. The details will be revealed in due time.

God cannot physically reside with us. But he is with us spiritually all the time.

6. At this point in time and on this corrupt earth, yes I agree, He cannot dwell. But after the transformation, He will. As so plainly claimed by many scriptures. Let scripture interpret scripture, Pegg.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus only preached about one kingdom... it was the kingdom he would be the ruler of...the heavenly kingdom which is also called 'New Jerusalem' as opposed to the earthly Jerusalem which existed when the scriptures were written.

Hi Pegg, why wouldn't Jesus already be ruling in a heavenly Kingdom? Why wait to rule? I think Yeshu started ruling as soon as He reached Heaven, or ruling with the Father.

 

[Nada]

Hi Pegg, why wouldn't Jesus already be ruling in a heavenly Kingdom? Why wait to rule? I think Yeshu started ruling as soon as He reached Heaven, or ruling with the Father.

The reason Jesus could not yet rule when he ascended to heaven was that the prophecy in the book of Daniel called the 2,520 year prophecy,or the Gentile Times prophecy, was not yet completed.This was the time period when God declared no more of his appointed kings would rule.This began in 607 B.C.E. and ended 2,520 years later.
This brings us to the year 1914 C.E. This is when satan and his angels were cast out of heaven as spoken of in Revelation 12:9.

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg, why wouldn't Jesus already be ruling in a heavenly Kingdom? Why wait to rule? I think Yeshu started ruling as soon as He reached Heaven, or ruling with the Father.

the bible says that he was 'waiting' to rule.

Hebrews 10:12, 13 But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet


Jesus did return to heaven after his resurrection...but he did not begin to rule until after he had 'waited' for a certain period of time. He himself said that there would be no one ruling Gods throne until the 'appointed times of the nations' had ended.
Luke 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem (the representation of Gods throne on earth) will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

Those appointed times did eventually come to an end, and that was the time that Christ began to rule in the kingdom...that time has already begun.

 

[Desert Snake]

Since Jesus and God are 'One', it is really only semantics in rulership, in Heaven.
Also, the 'nations' are actually always under freewill, so the rulership does not 'govern' our freewill, however, we do agree on the rulership of Jesus, regardless of your timeline estimates.

 

[Pegg]

Since Jesus and God are 'One', it is really only semantics in rulership, in Heaven.
Also, the 'nations' are actually always under freewill, so the rulership does not 'govern' our freewill, however, we do agree on the rulership of Jesus, regardless of your timeline estimates.

I dont believe that bible supports the trinity, rather we see two distinct individuals in Jesus and Jehovah.

They are one in unity... but that doesnt mean they are 'one person'.

 

[Muffled]

there is no temple anymore.

And the anti-christ has been in the world since the first century according to the bible:
1John 2:18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now (1st century) many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort.

Who are the many antichrists that John is speaking about? Is is false christians if you continue reading John says "they went out from among us"

The antichrist are false christians ....and they are everywhere.

I believe John makes a distinction between the antichrist and many antichrists.