Gods Kingdom is now ruling. Are you one of its citizens?

[james2ko]

the events before this are also mentioned by Jesus a few verses earlier in Matthew 24:4  In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.



The events describing the sun being darkened and moon not giving its light are mentioned later in Vs 29... so those events come later and are still future.

The Watchtower views it as still future:

I figured you would come up with something like that for Mat 24. But you once again ignored the rest of the verses:

Isa 24:23 The moon will grow dark, and the sun will no longer shine, for the LORD Almighty will be king. He will rule in Jerusalem on Mount Zion, and the leaders of the people will see his glory.

Zec_8:3 "Thus says the LORD: 'I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the LORD of hosts, The Holy Mountain.'

Zec_14:9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be "The LORD is one," And His name one.
​

Are you finally admitting Christ will dwell and rule from earth--not from heaven?

 

[savagewind]

Have you ever considered the possibility that you both might be wrong?

Whenever anyone prayers in the name of Jesus Christ it can truly be said "I will return to Zion and dwell in the midst of Jeresalem". Whenever God's will is accomplished on earth by the righteous works of the people for the city of peace it can truly be said "he rules in Jerusalem on Mount Zion". When God's people finish their wtness work it will be true "The Lord shall be King over all the earth".

Those teaching Jesus will return in bodily form forget he said he is no part of the world. How can someone rule earth out of a physical city and be no part of the world?

 

[outhouse]

Have you ever considered the possibility that you both might be wrong?

Im putting my money on your quote

 

[Ken Brown]

Yes, this too refers to the future.

Jesus died in 33CE... decades later, the apostles still spoke of his rulership and kingdom as something a future time:

Titus 2:11 For the undeserved kindness of God has been manifested, bringing salvation to all sorts of people. 12 It trains us to reject ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, 13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ


1Peter1:13  So brace up your minds for activity; keep your senses completely; set your hope on the undeserved kindness that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ

2 Peter 3:11 Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat! 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.


2Cor 4:3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through


Notice in all these scriptures, the hope of the heavenly kingdom is still future... it has not occured yet. The Apostles are encouraging christians to keep waiting for it. And in their understanding, Satan was still the 'god of the system' even after Christ had been raised to heaven.

In Revelation chapter 12, the establishment of the kingdom is discussed but the woman who gives birth to the child is said to flee into the wilderness for a length of time... then after being in the wilderness for a set period of time, war breaks out in heaven and Michael the Arch Angle takes the lead in hurling Satan from heaven. When we turn to Daniels prophecy, we see the same events under discussion:

Dan 12:1 “During that time Mi′cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time.


So we believe that this time of distress refers to the outbreak of WW1 in 1914... that was a turning point in human history and it well describes the time of distress as discussed by both Daniel and Revelation.

Shalom Pegg, I believe we are speaking about 2 different things. When Yeshua was glorified and did the will of the Father, that judged Satan and cast him OUT OF HEAVEN, as Yeshua began His reign IN HEAVEN. Therefore, everyone dwelling in heaven should rejoice, but woe to the dwellers of the earth and sea because Satan has come down, having great wrath, knowing he has but a short time. What is a short time to a being that is very old? Wouldn't 2 days be a short time, and the last 2000 years are as 2 days to Elohim and Satan. Look, Paul said that we are SEATED with Yeshua in the HEAVENLY PLACES (Eph 1:20, 2:6), this is WHERE Yeshua is reigning, but His reign is ALSO coming to this earth at His return when His TWO WITNESSES (the 1st and 2nd Churches) are raised up to meet Him in the clouds (1 Thes 4:14-18 and Rev 11:12 & 15). Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[james2ko]

Have you ever considered the possibility that you both might be wrong?

Yes I have. The passages are crystal clear; contextually and grammatically correct to mean anything else.

Whenever anyone prayers in the name of Jesus Christ it can truly be said "I will return to Zion and dwell in the midst of Jeresalem". Whenever God's will is accomplished on earth by the righteous works of the people for the city of peace it can truly be said "he rules in Jerusalem on Mount Zion". When God's people finish their wtness work it will be true "The Lord shall be King over all the earth".Those teaching Jesus will return in bodily form forget he said he is no part of the world.

Post the passages and let's take a closer look at their context and grammar.

How can someone rule earth out of a physical city and be no part of the world?

An incorrect premise usually leads to an incorrect conclusion.

 

[james2ko]

Im putting my money on your quote

That's a bad bet, dude. Since you like giving $ away, why don't you give some toward a good cause?.... Like my mortgage

 

[Pegg]

I figured you would come up with something like that for Mat 24. But you once again ignored the rest of the verses:

Isa 24:23 The moon will grow dark, and the sun will no longer shine, for the LORD Almighty will be king. He will rule in Jerusalem on Mount Zion, and the leaders of the people will see his glory.

Zec_8:3 "Thus says the LORD: 'I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the LORD of hosts, The Holy Mountain.'

Zec_14:9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be "The LORD is one," And His name one.
​

Are you finally admitting Christ will dwell and rule from earth--not from heaven?

Not at all.

There is no place on earth where the 'heavenly' kingdom will be situated.

Zion was the mountain on which the temple was originally built. That temple represented Gods rulership on earth...but his rulership was always situated in the heavens because that is where he is situated.

 

[outhouse]

Like my mortgage

Stick with home ownership, its almost always a winner.

 

[james2ko]

Not at all. There is no place on earth where the 'heavenly' kingdom will be situated. Zion was the mountain on which the temple was originally built. That temple represented Gods rulership on earth..his rulership was always situated in the heavens because that is where he is situated.

Yes Christ is currently in heaven but He will not remain there. He will return to earthly Mt Zion, build His temple, and reign right here on earth! In spite of what our human organizations teach, the scriptures should be our ultimately authority:

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;

Isa 59:20 "The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," Says the LORD.

Psa 2:6-7 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion." 7 "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

Zec 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

Zec 2:10-13 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," [/b][/u]says the LORD. 11 "Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. 12 And the LORD will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!"

Psa 84:5-7 What joy for those whose strength comes from the LORD, who have set their minds on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. 6 When they walk through the Valley of Weeping, it will become a place of refreshing springs. The autumn rains will clothe it with blessings. 7 They will continue to grow stronger, and each of them will appear before God in Jerusalem

Psa 102:15-16, 21-22 So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD, And all the kings of the earth Your glory. For the LORD shall build up Zion; He shall appear in His glory. 21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

Isa 2:3 Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Joe 3:16-18 The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel. 17 "So you shall know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. Then Jerusalem shall be holy, And no aliens shall ever pass through her again." 18 And it will come to pass in that day That the mountains shall drip with new wine, The hills shall flow with milk,And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water; A fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD And water the Valley of Acacias.[/b][/u]

Zec 8:20 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities; 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD, And seek the LORD of hosts. I myself will go also." 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the LORD.'

Jer 3:17 "At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.

Zec 6:12-15 Then speak to him, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts,saying: "Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, And He shall build the temple of the LORD; 13 Yes, He shall build the temple of the LORD. He shall bear the glory, And shall sit and rule on His throne; So He shall be a priest on His throne, And the counsel of peace shall be between them both." '14 "Now the elaborate crown shall be for a memorial in the temple of the LORD for Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah. 15 Even those from afar shall come and build the temple of the LORD. Then you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. And this shall come to pass if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God."

Isa 56:6-7 "Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant—7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; [For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."

Eze 43:5-7 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the temple. 6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. 7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places.​

Sorry Pegg. The scriptures irrefutably indicate He will return, live, rule from earth and build His temple here. The WT has some things right. But as you can plainly see, their understanding is closed to this doctrine at the moment.

 

[Pegg]

Yes Christ is currently in heaven but He will not remain there. He will return to earthly Mt Zion, build His temple, and reign right here on earth! In spite of what our human organizations teach, the scriptures should be our ultimately authority:

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;

Isa 59:20 "The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," Says the LORD.

Psa 2:6-7 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion." 7 "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

Zec 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

Zec 2:10-13 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," [/b][/u]says the LORD. 11 "Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. 12 And the LORD will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all flesh, before the LORD, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!"

Psa 84:5-7 What joy for those whose strength comes from the LORD, who have set their minds on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. 6 When they walk through the Valley of Weeping, it will become a place of refreshing springs. The autumn rains will clothe it with blessings. 7 They will continue to grow stronger, and each of them will appear before God in Jerusalem

Psa 102:15-16, 21-22 So the nations shall fear the name of the LORD, And all the kings of the earth Your glory. For the LORD shall build up Zion; He shall appear in His glory. 21 To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem, 22 When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

Isa 2:3 Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Joe 3:16-18 The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel. 17 "So you shall know that I am the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. Then Jerusalem shall be holy, And no aliens shall ever pass through her again." 18 And it will come to pass in that day That the mountains shall drip with new wine, The hills shall flow with milk,And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water; A fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD And water the Valley of Acacias.[/b][/u]

Zec 8:20 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities; 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD, And seek the LORD of hosts. I myself will go also." 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the LORD.'

Jer 3:17 "At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.

Zec 6:12-15 Then speak to him, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts,saying: "Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, And He shall build the temple of the LORD; 13 Yes, He shall build the temple of the LORD. He shall bear the glory, And shall sit and rule on His throne; So He shall be a priest on His throne, And the counsel of peace shall be between them both." '14 "Now the elaborate crown shall be for a memorial in the temple of the LORD for Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah. 15 Even those from afar shall come and build the temple of the LORD. Then you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. And this shall come to pass if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God."

Isa 56:6-7 "Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant—7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; [For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."

Eze 43:5-7 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the temple. 6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. 7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places.​

Sorry Pegg. The scriptures irrefutably indicate He will return, live, rule from earth and build His temple here. The WT has some things right. But as you can plainly see, their understanding is closed to this doctrine at the moment.

I notice that all of your scriptures are from the hebrew scriptures when there was still a physical temple and a throne representing Gods rulership on earth.

Where was the throne & temple in the Garden of Eden? You likely know there was no physical throne or temple required at that time. Why do you think that was the case back then?

 

[james2ko]

I notice that all of your scriptures are from the hebrew scriptures when there was still a physical temple and a throne representing Gods rulership on earth.

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

As the scriptures plainly state, He's returning to re-establish that throne.

Where was the throne & temple in the Garden of Eden?

Not sure what relevance that has with Christ's future throne in Jerusalem?

You likely know there was no physical throne or temple required at that time. Why do you think that was the case back then?

Read the scriptures again Pegg without prejudice, presupposition, bias. Let the scriptures interpret scripture. They are as plain as day. I realize it may not be what you have been taught or believed for 20+ years, but it would be intellectually dishonest to simply ignore or deny the clarity contained in these verses.

 

[Pegg]

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

As the scriptures plainly state, He's returning to re-establish that throne.

We also are given a picture of exactly what that temple and city will look like.... tell me, is this a literal place or do you think it may perhaps be symbolic??

Revelation 21;9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls that were full of the seven last plagues came and said to me: “Come, and I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone shining crystal clear. 12 It had a great and lofty wall and had 12 gates with 12 angels at the gates, and on the gates were inscribed the names of the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 On the east were three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 The wall of the city also had 12 foundation stones, and on them were the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.
15 Now the one who was speaking with me was holding a golden reed as a measure in order to measure the city and its gates and its wall. 16 And the city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as its width. And he measured the city with the reed, 12,000 stadia; its length and width and height are equal. 17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits according to a man’s measure, at the same time an angel’s measure. 18 Now the wall was made of jasper, and the city was pure gold like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the city wall were adorned with every sort of precious stone: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chal·ce′do·ny, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sar·don′yx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrys′o·lite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrys′o·prase, the eleventh hyacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21 Also, the 12 gates were 12 pearls; each one of the gates was made of one pearl. And the main street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
22 I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb is. 23 And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp was the Lamb. 24 And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 Its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. 26 And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But anything defiled and anyone who does what is disgusting and deceitful will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life will enter.

Not sure what relevance that has with Christ's future throne in Jerusalem?

the relevance is that God ruled the earth back then without the need of a physical temple or place of worship. But after Adam and Eve sinned, things changed....Why do you think that changed after the rebellion in Eden?

Read the scriptures again Pegg without prejudice, presupposition, bias. Let the scriptures interpret scripture. They are as plain as day. I realize it may not be what you have been taught or believed for 20+ years, but it would be intellectually dishonest to simply ignore or deny the clarity contained in these verses.

As i said, they were written for the Jews living back then when there actually was a temple where Gods rulership was represented by a physical throne....so of course its speaking about a real physical city and temple.

But Gods rulership does not need to be physically represented on earth by such things because submission to Gods rulership can be performed spiritually....think back to the garden of Eden and tell me why there was no need for a temple?

 

[savagewind]

Yes I have. The passages are crystal clear; contextually and grammatically correct to mean anything else.



Post the passages and let's take a closer look at their context and grammar.



An incorrect premise usually leads to an incorrect conclusion.

OK. Hit me!

First of all you said nothing about this: Whenever anyone prayers in the name of Jesus Christ it can truly be said "I will return to Zion and dwell in the midst of Jeresalem". Whenever God's will is accomplished on earth by the righteous works of the people for the city of peace it can truly be said "he rules in Jerusalem on Mount Zion". When God's people finish their wtness work it will be true "The Lord shall be King over all the earth".

Is it wrong? Why is it wrong and HOW do you know?

Does Jesus rule on a horse? It seems to me 144,000 rule on horses too.
Why are they on horses in the city?

If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. John 15:19

I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. John 17:14

Let's talk aboout his words "I have chosen you out of the world". I think he is talking only about the 144,000 there, whatever that may be. He is not CHOOSING out of the world whoever the apostles preach to. Or is he? That would be everyone. Wouldn't it?

 

[james2ko]

We also are given a picture of exactly what that temple and city will look like.... tell me, is this a literal place or do you think it may perhaps be symbolic??

Revelation 21;9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls that were full of the seven last plagues came and said to me: “Come, and I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone shining crystal clear. 12 It had a great and lofty wall and had 12 gates with 12 angels at the gates, and on the gates were inscribed the names of the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 On the east were three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 The wall of the city also had 12 foundation stones, and on them were the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.
15 Now the one who was speaking with me was holding a golden reed as a measure in order to measure the city and its gates and its wall. 16 And the city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as its width. And he measured the city with the reed, 12,000 stadia; its length and width and height are equal. 17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits according to a man’s measure, at the same time an angel’s measure. 18 Now the wall was made of jasper, and the city was pure gold like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the city wall were adorned with every sort of precious stone: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chal·ce′do·ny, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sar·don′yx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrys′o·lite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrys′o·prase, the eleventh hyacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21 Also, the 12 gates were 12 pearls; each one of the gates was made of one pearl. And the main street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
22 I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb is. 23 And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp was the Lamb. 24 And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 Its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. 26 And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But anything defiled and anyone who does what is disgusting and deceitful will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life will enter.

1. Absolutely literal. Notice the detailed physical description and how the kings of the earth will bring their glory "into" the city (vs24); its gates closed at night and open during the day. This is the New Jerusalem. It is a city that is being prepared to be delivered to the New Heavens and New Earth sometime AFTER Christ's millennial reign:

Rev 21:1-2 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

And guess who else will also dwell among us at that time?:

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.​

God The Father!

the relevance is that God ruled the earth back then without the need of a physical temple or place of worship. But after Adam and Eve sinned, things changed....Why do you think that changed after the rebellion in Eden?

2. This is a non-sequitur, Pegg. What happened then has no relevance to what God desires to do in the future, which the scriptures plainly state He will send His Son a second time to dwell and rule in Jerusalem.

As i said, they were written for the Jews living back then when there actually was a temple where Gods rulership was represented by a physical throne....so of course its speaking about a real physical city and temple.

3. All of the passages posted are prophetic. They were not only written for God's people then but for God's people today and in the future.

But Gods rulership does not need to be physically represented on earth by such things because submission to Gods rulership can be performed spiritually....think back to the garden of Eden and tell me why there was no need for a temple?

4. Yes I agree. But the bible plainly states this is the way God has decided to do it and we have to yield and submit to His methodology, not ours or our organizations.

 

[savagewind]

1. Absolutely literal. Notice the detailed physical description and how the kings of the earth will bring their glory "into" the city (vs24); its gates closed at night and open during the day. This is the New Jerusalem. It is a city that is being prepared to be delivered to the New Heavens and New Earth sometime AFTER Christ's millennial reign:

Rev 21:1-2 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

And guess who else will also dwell among us at that time?:

Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.​

God The Father!

BEHOLD the word 3708. horaó 3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

Strong's Greek: 3708. ???? (horaó) -- to see, perceive, attend to

 

[Pegg]

James, how can it be a city with a literal temple when Vs 22 says:

 I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb is.

lets just get past this point before we go on please

 

[Katzpur]

Jesus promised that he would return with the power of Gods kingdom. A lot of christians i imagine are still waiting for that to happen.

But what if someone told you that it has already happened and Jesus is already here ruling and changing the world?

What would be your initial response??

My initial response, Pegg, would be that you're wrong. That would also be my final response. My belief is that there are a great many things left to take place before Christ returns, and when that day comes, I don't believe anyone will be left wondering.

 

[Pegg]

My initial response, Pegg, would be that you're wrong. That would also be my final response. My belief is that there are a great many things left to take place before Christ returns, and when that day comes, I don't believe anyone will be left wondering.

i agree that no one will be left wondering, thats for sure.

Thanks for sharing your opinion... all opinions are welcome

 

[james2ko]

OK. Hit me!

1. I wouldn't hit anyone. Especially not a woman. You are a female, right? You never know with internet correspondence.

First of all you said nothing about this: Whenever anyone prayers in the name of Jesus Christ it can truly be said "I will return to Zion and dwell in the midst of Jeresalem". Whenever God's will is accomplished on earth by the righteous works of the people for the city of peace it can truly be said "he rules in Jerusalem on Mount Zion". When God's people finish their wtness work it will be true "The Lord shall be King over all the earth".Is it wrong? Why is it wrong and HOW do you know?

2. It is not wrong to interpret those passages devotionally. But then you would be taking them out of their prophetic context essentially overlooking a very important aspect of God's awesome plan for mankind.

Does Jesus rule on a horse? It seems to me 144,000 rule on horses too. Why are they on horses in the city?

3. Please post references with your replies. If you're referring to Rev 19:14, they "follow" Christ on horses as they descend with Him from heaven. No indication they will rule on those horses.

If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. John 15:19 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. John 17:14

4. Let's talk aboout his words "I have chosen you out of the world". I think he is talking only about the 144,000 there, whatever that may be. He is not CHOOSING out of the world whoever the apostles preach to. Or is he? That would be everyone. Wouldn't it?

Remember many are "called" or you can alternatively say "preached to". But few are actually "chosen" (Mat 22:14).

 

[james2ko]

James, how can it be a city with a literal temple when Vs 22 says:

 I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb is.

lets just get past this point before we go on please

This refers to the "New" Jerusalem delivered to the "New" Heavens and "New" Earth. Different than the Jerusalem Christ came to rule and dwell for 1,000 years. Apparently, the New Jerusalem will not have a temple.