Guilty By Association?

[Kathryn]

lets change this from christianity to something else and we'll compare the 2.
should i disassociate myself from musicians?

There are some really terrible musicians out there. Maybe so.

 

[Nakosis]

In another thread, it was brought to attention that if one is a Christian, that he or she is guilty for what all Christians have done current and in the past. Do you believe this to be true? What about other groups?
This isn't only about Christianity and it isn't just about religion and faith- do you think that a whole group should be held accountable for what a few of it's members have done? Is that even fair?

I think everyone should be treated as an individual without regard/respect for their religion, race, culture, gender.

An individual represents no one other than themselves IMO. I deal with individuals and if they are a good person, that is all that is important.

Whatever else they happen to be need have no bearing on our relationship.

 

[waitasec]

There are some really terrible musicians out there. Maybe so.

did you take advil for that headache?


what do you mean by terrible?
i could be one of them...

 

[Kathryn]

did you take advil for that headache?


what do you mean by terrible?
i could be one of them...

Maybe you are.

But since I'm not familiar with your type of music or your level of talent or lack thereof, and for a variety of other reasons, I'm not qualified to judge whether or not you are a terrible musician.

But you bring up a suprisingly interesting subtopic. Let's say you are an accordian player and let's say you insist on getting together with other accordian players and practicing your accordians at 2 am and this disturbs your neighbors.

Then I could say you are guilty of being a bad accordian player. However, if you DON'T get together with other accordian players and abuse the rights of others, and instead you are a good neighbor and play your accordian peacefully, you're not guilty of bad accordian etiquette.

I may not like accordian music, and I may think it's a travesty and that you're ridiculous to waste your time playing the accordian, but so what? You're free to think I have boorish taste and can't possibly judge accordian music with any sort of authority.


We might both be wrong.

Or we might both be right.

 

[Revoltingest]

For fans of the accordion.....

 

[Me Myself]

[youtube]5WpYWpN0VXU[/youtube]
Dances of the soldiers - YouTube

 

[Kathryn]

[youtube]5WpYWpN0VXU[/youtube]
Dances of the soldiers - YouTube

This is HILARIOUS!!!!!!

 

[waitasec]

Maybe you are.

But since I'm not familiar with your type of music or your level of talent or lack thereof, and for a variety of other reasons, I'm not qualified to judge whether or not you are a terrible musician.

are you saying, if there are terrible musicians then no one should be a musician?


here's a thought...

the difference between christianity and music is that we can define what music is. and thusly what a musician is; a person who plays or composes music, especially as a profession, right?
so then how are we as a society supposed to come up with one definition of christianity, if there are so many different ways one can define christianity.

 

[waitasec]

OK my headache is gone.

I love New Orleans Saints football. But wait - there was some sort of scandal recently! Does this mean I am an unethical person by association? Does this mean that I should not support the team of my hometown? Do I have to change my dog's name? (His name is WhoDat.) Do I need to get rid of the fleur di lis all over my house, and my football season clothing, and burn my New Orleans Saints flag that I put out during football season?

Am I guilty by association? Or do I simply love what's good and fun and wholesome about New Orleans Saints football?

(Answer - it's option #2.)

you do not represent football

 

[Kathryn]

are you saying, if there are terrible musicians then no one should be a musician?

Ummmm, no.



Are you confusing people's arguments here?

here's a thought...

Fantastic.

the difference between christianity and music is that we can define what music is. and thusly what a musician is; a person who plays or composes music, especially as a profession, right?

One person's "music" is another person's "noise."

But...I can define what a Christian is.


From Webster's dictionary:

1Chris·tian noun \ˈkris-chən, ˈkrish-\

Definition of CHRISTIAN

1
a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ

Christian - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

so then how are we as a society supposed to come up with one definition of christianity, if there are so many different ways one can define christianity.

The definition I gave you should suffice.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

That definition would extent to Muslims... they just believe the currently taught teachings are either not Jesus' or have become sufficiently corrupted to make them less reliable.

 

[blackout]

I would say a musician is a person who is fluent in and comprehensively knowledgable of
the language and construction of music. Including harmony, melody, rhythm, and compositional techniques.

Many of the mainstream ... ummm.... performers... in today's music industry
should not be called musicians, yet that's what everyone calls them.

Truthfully, It is an insult to the integrity of the meaning of the word musician.
I have no problem with performers BTW.
Lets just call a 'thing' what it really is.

Not sure how this fits into the conversation exactly.....

 

[waitasec]

Ummmm, no.



Are you confusing people's arguments here?

here this what you said originally

lets change this from christianity to something else and we'll compare the 2.
should i disassociate myself from musicians?

There are some really terrible musicians out there. Maybe so.

One person's "music" is another person's "noise."

that's not the point.
music is defined ... the noise is still understood as a musical "noise".

But...I can define what a Christian is.


From Webster's dictionary:

1Chris·tian noun \ˈkris-chən, ˈkrish-\

Definition of CHRISTIAN

1
a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ

Christian - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

no one can confirm what jesus taught. no one.

try again.

 

[Kathryn]

that's not the point.
music is defined ... the noise is still understood as a music noise.


no one can confirm what jesus taught. no one.

try again.

No thanks.

No offense, but I'm done trying with you. Your arguments are, well, inconsistent.

 

[waitasec]

I would say a musician is a person who is fluent in and comprehensively knowledgable of
the language and construction of music. Including harmony, melody, rhythm, and compositional techniques.

Many of the mainstream ... ummm.... performers... in today's music industry
should not be called musicians, yet that's what everyone calls them.

Truthfully, It is an insult to the integrity of the meaning of the word musician.
I have no problem with performers BTW.
Lets just call a 'thing' what it really is.

Not sure how this fits into the conversation exactly.....

an electrician makes a living working with electricity
as musicians make a living playing music.

i'm trying to compare something that is defined to something that isn't and how when some one associates their self with something that isn't so easily definable are confused for being labeled with the negative connotations of one of the definitions of that association.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

As an Ignostic, I think it is very important to define terms... As a practically minded ignostic however, I recognise that terms are polymorphic and people have different understanding of these terms, as such, when I deal with people - I am less concerned with using the correct term as I am with understanding the concepts to which people are referring when they use such terms. It may be that I use a term incorrectly whenever I talk with a certain person, or perhaps even only within that certain conversation - but the important thing is not the technical correctness of the term, it is the shared understanding of how the term will be used and possibly the connotations that it holds.

If someone wants to call themselves an XXXX I will attempt to understand what THEY mean by XXXX (true I might have a basic understanding of XXXX from my previous encounters with it, but an Ignostic should be ready to suspend such understandings) why make associations that have no basis in reality? If someone calls themselves a white supremacist, for example, I will likely have a certain understanding of what that means, it will likely affect my interactions with that individual to an extent - but as an ignostic I try to suspend such reservations in order to better understand the concepts involved, rather than getting hung up on linguistics.

 

[Kathryn]

i'm trying to compare something that is defined to something that isn't and how when some one associates their self with something that isn't so easily definable are confused for being labeled with the negative connotations of one of the definitions of that association.

AUGH!

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Waitasec... try defining God before you try defining a particular group that believes in God... the difficulty in defining 'God' is so great you will quickly realise that what you are attempting to do in defining the particular group that believes in God is exponentially more complex...

Describing is slightly easier than defining given that it is a more abstract process... but the truth is it is far easier to define or describe what it is NOT then what it is.
(I forget the ancient Christian philosophical pursuit that realised this... it occurred in the early centuries AD)

Simply because something is not readily definable or describable does not mean it is meaningless (sorry theological noncognitivists, I simply cannot accept this assumption) just that its meaning is poorly understood through rationality. That does not mean that people should make up whatever associations they like to such a term - but they do... that is what stereotyping is all about for example.

 

[blackout]

and electrician makes a living working with electricity
as musicians make a living playing music.

i'm trying to compare something that is defined to something that isn't and how when some one associates their self with something that isn't so easily definable are confused for being labeled with the negative connotations one of the definitions of that association.

But electricians are licenced and certified and (hopefully) qualified to do an entire electrical job on their own.
(because they actually and competently know their trade).

Many (so called) 'musicians', are not musicians at all.
If there were certifications tests,
they would not even come close to passing.
If they had to put a score/composition/piece together from scratch
with no music generating programs, they couldn't.
They can legitimately be (called) many other things...
but they are not truly musicians.

As a musician,
this is how I see it.
But I didn't come in here to argue the point.

 

[lunamoth]

Describing is slightly easier than defining given that it is a more abstract process... but the truth is it is far easier to define or describe what it is NOT then what it is.
(I forget the ancient Christian philosophical pursuit that realised this... it occurred in the early centuries AD)

Apophatic.