Guilty By Association?

[blackout]

As a true musician,
I officially appologize for Brittney Spears.
(and a host of unnamed others)


*glad to finally have gotten that off my chest*

 

[Desert Snake]

As a true musician,
I officially appologize for Brittney Spears.
(and a host of unnamed others)


*glad to finally have gotten that off my chest*

I don't think her music is that bad, and I don't even like pop music.

 

[waitasec]

No thanks.

No offense, but I'm done trying with you. Your arguments are, well, inconsistent.

there is more then 1 definition for "christian"
as it is not only associated with the supposed teachings of jesus but it is also associated with the teachings of jesus through fred phelps or pat robertson or the pope and so forth.

 

[blackout]

I don't think her music is that bad, and I don't even like pop music.

But is it her music?
Does the girl actually know a thing about music?

 

[nnmartin]

definitely a form of guilt (this is referring to the OP)

 

[Desert Snake]

But is it her music?
Does the girl actually know a thing about music?

I don't know.

 

[Kathryn]

there is more then 1 definition for "christian"
as it is not only associated with the supposed teachings of jesus but it is also associated with the teachings of jesus through fred phelps or pat robertson or the pope and so forth.

Not for me.

Look, I gave you the Webster dictionary definition of a Christian, which is a broad, simple definition. If other people want to clutter it up more than that, I can't stop them, but less is more.

You're confused about the definition. I'm not. I can't help you anymore.

But you're not really trying to understand, are you?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

@nnmartin, the challenge to that is of course the idea of 'right' to rule; the presupposition that by virtue of creating, the creator has unlimited right over created. It would be similar to holding the idea that we must always do absolutely everything our parents told us to do without exception because they gave us life; that is part of the reason many religions emphasise duty to family.

However regardless of whether or not you believe them to be dictatorships, that does not address whether or not we should feel free to associate different phenomena (such as horrible or wonderful events) with terms (such as religious categorisations) where the term and phenomena actually have only a very tenuous relationship - despite the explicit or implicit strength of the association.

@Kathryn, however as I mentioned, the definition you gave extends to Muslims - do you hold Muslims to be Christians?

 

[nnmartin]

Informed:

hi, I edited that post very quickly and have changed it to a new thread in the main 'Religious Debates' section - so will be happy to discuss it there with you,

cheers, Martin

 

[Kathryn]

@nnmartin, the challenge to that is of course the idea of 'right' to rule; the presupposition that by virtue of creating, the creator has unlimited right over created. It would be similar to holding the idea that we must always do absolutely everything our parents told us to do without exception because they gave us life; that is part of the reason many religions emphasise duty to family.

However regardless of whether or not you believe them to be dictatorships, that does not address whether or not we should feel free to associate different phenomena (such as horrible or wonderful events) with terms (such as religious categorisations) where the term and phenomena actually have only a very tenuous relationship - despite the explicit or implicit strength of the association.

@Kathryn, however as I mentioned, the definition you gave extends to Muslims - do you hold Muslims to be Christians?

The real question would be - would a Muslim define themselves as a Christian?

 

[Desert Snake]

The real question would be - would a Muslim define themselves as a Christian?

of course not, and of course there is alot of variation in beliefs in the context of "Christianity", this forum is a good example of that, actually.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Right, but what I am saying is that such terms are inherently polymorphic (and their definitions inherently either vague to the point of including people who would not include themselves or so specific as to preclude those who would include themselves)... There are people who call themselves Christian who do not believe that Jesus is God for example.

 

[Kathryn]

of course not, and of course there is alot of variation in beliefs in the context of "Christianity", this forum is a good example of that, actually.

Right which is why I was keeping it simple.

Muslims follow the teachings of Muhammad first and foremost.

And I believe in Truth, Equality, Freedom, Justice, and Karma. But I'm not a Sikh. First and foremost, I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Oh, and I'm a musician too.

And I represent Saints football in my neighborhood.

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec... try defining God before you try defining a particular group that believes in God... the difficulty in defining 'God' is so great you will quickly realise that what you are attempting to do in defining the particular group that believes in God is exponentially more complex...

Describing is slightly easier than defining given that it is a more abstract process... but the truth is it is far easier to define or describe what it is NOT then what it is.
(I forget the ancient Christian philosophical pursuit that realised this... it occurred in the early centuries AD)

Simply because something is not readily definable or describable does not mean it is meaningless (sorry theological noncognitivists, I simply cannot accept this assumption) just that its meaning is poorly understood through rationality. That does not mean that people should make up whatever associations they like to such a term - but they do... that is what stereotyping is all about for example.

i didn't say it was meaningless..did i?
all i'm saying is that when someone associates their self with something that is undefinable they shouldn't be surprised when they're being misunderstood.
that's all.

 

[Kathryn]

i didn't say it was meaningless..did i?
all i'm saying is that when someone associates their self with something that is undefinable they shouldn't be surprised when they're being misunderstood.
that's all.

But we're not talking about undefinable concepts. You're just not accepting a broad definition.

There are exceptions to just about every rule. They don't negate the general rule.

Understanding this though, and applying it to life, does require common sense.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

That comment was intended for theological noncognitivists (hence my reference to them); however even if something is poorly defined, it does not warrant the association of concepts once those associations have been addressed (for example saying 'I am a Christian but do not believe in the holy spirit') unless the association is so central to the term that they are really non negotiable (for example saying 'I am a Christian but do not believe Jesus ever existed'). Moreover that while such associations are understandable and to an extent, natural, they have only limited usefulness and can indeed be quite unhelpful at times.

 

[ChristineES]

I always thought that a Christians was someone who followed Jesus commands. What are Jesus commands? They are in the four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There are also some Gnostic Gospels, infancy Gospels, etc. I have listed some of Jesus commands on several occasions and I will again post the ones Jesus said were the most important:

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

And I will post some others:
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you,
Mat 5:45 so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

And some more:

Luk 14:12 And He also said to him who invited Him, When you make a dinner or a supper, do not call your friends or your brothers, or your kinsmen, or your rich neighbors; lest they also invite you again, and a recompense be made to you.
Luk 14:13 But when you make a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind,
Luk 14:14 and you shall be blessed, for they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.

Luk 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

I think these teachings are pretty straight forward. There are plenty of others.

 

[vepurusg]

Matthew 10:33 -37
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

1. When incited, Pronounce Yeshua before men (and do not deny him).

2. Cause conflict (fulfilling the will of Yeshua) with your family if they do not believe.
Do not accept peace and mutual respect for other beliefs.

3. Love Yeshua more than your family (You aren't Christian if you love your family more than Yeshua).

Matthew 12:30-32
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

4. (In fulfillment of Yeshua's assertion) Don't forgive people who speak blasphemies against the Holy Ghost.

Luke 19:26-27
For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

5. Proselytize (Bring men to follow Yeshua, as a return on the investment, as you have been given life)

6. Kill those who will not accept Yeshua.


These teachings are pretty straight forward.

 

[waitasec]

But we're not talking about undefinable concepts. You're just not accepting a broad definition.

There are exceptions to just about every rule. They don't negate the general rule.

Understanding this though, and applying it to life, does require common sense.

when i tell you i'm a musician you're not going to interpret that as me being a magician or a gardener or a doctor.

when someone calls their self a christian it's still too vague..

fred phelps calls himself a christian.

 

[waitasec]

That comment was intended for theological noncognitivists (hence my reference to them); however even if something is poorly defined, it does not warrant the association of concepts once those associations have been addressed

of course it does because...
one can be a christian and beleive he never existed
atheists for jesus
Atheists for Jesus - Richard Dawkins - www.richarddawkins.net - RichardDawkins.net

just as one can be a christian and not believe in the holy spirit
and just as one can be a christian and picket the funerals of homosexuals

(for example saying 'I am a Christian but do not believe in the holy spirit') unless the association is so central to the term that they are really non negotiable (for example saying 'I am a Christian but do not believe Jesus ever existed')

maybe to you but not to another christian who doesn't believe jesus existed

Moreover that while such associations are understandable and to an extent, natural, they have only limited usefulness and can indeed be quite unhelpful at times.

there are those who want to be defined
as there are those who understand they can't be