"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[Treasure Hunter]

What is the primary determiner of gender identity in your view?

Again, what is the primary (singular) determiner of gender identity in your view? I don’t need a lesson in human development, thanks.

I’m asking your gender now. Do you think gender isn’t real?

@Firenze
Are you not going to answer the question of gender? Do you not believe the claims of trans activists about gender? Are you “an angry, uneducated bigot” now too?

 

[Firenze]

@Firenze
Are you not going to answer the question of gender? Do you not believe the claims of trans activists about gender? Are you “an angry, uneducated bigot” now too?

Your inability to see where I schooled you on the fact that there is no singular determinant of gender sounds a lot like a You problem.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Your inability to see where I schooled you on the fact that there is no singular determinant of gender sounds a lot like a You problem.

So you are a gender relativist? What is your gender?

 

[Firenze]

So you are a gender relativist? What is your gender?

To the extent that context is important, sure. I tried to educate you on the importance of considering both genital morphology and brain chemistry in determining gender and it apparently went over your head. People that are desperate to cling to simple minded answers to complex questions are not impressive. So when people take the intellectually lazy position that ‘penis equals boy and vagina equals girl’ - I have to facepalm, as I consider that ilk to be the same as those who claim “god said it, I believe it, that settles it”. Yikes.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

To the extent that context is important, sure. I tried to educate you on the importance of considering both genital morphology and brain chemistry in determining gender and it apparently went over your head. People that are desperate to cling to simple minded answers to complex questions are not impressive. So when people take the intellectually lazy position that ‘penis equals boy and vagina equals girl’ - I have to facepalm, as I consider that ilk to be the same as those who claim “god said it, I believe it, that settles it”. Yikes.

Is the position of trans activists on gender — the idea that a trans person has an innate connection to true gender — more or less intellectually lazy than the position that gender should be wedded to bio sex gametes and characteristics (penis for male)?

Will I never get your answer to what gender you are and how you determine it?

 

[icehorse]

@Firenze, it sounds like you are somehow combining the ideas of biological sex and stereotypical gender into one concept?

I think that gender as a concept should be replaced by personalities, and that we can all easily acknowledge that there are infinite personalities that allow for things like tomboys and effeminate boys.

So what's wrong with the idea that there are two sexes and infinite personalities? When wouldn't that be a useful and compassionate orientation?

 

[Firenze]

Is the position of trans activists on gender — the idea that a trans person has an innate connection to true gender — more or less intellectually lazy than the position that gender should be wedded to bio sex gametes and characteristics (penis for male)?

Can I never get your answer to what gender you are and how you determine it?

The trans idea is not lazy at all because it recognizes the importance of brain development in how an individual determines their gender.

My gender is predominantly heterosexual. I determined that by recognizing that I have a penis, testes, testosterone - and an almost religious worship of *****. Morphology + Brain.

 

[icehorse]

So @Firenze , a couple of thoughts, based on your post #347:

- do you think gender is fluid?
- if you believe (as I do, and as you just said), that it takes a certain level of brain development to help a person determine their gender, then doesn't it make sense to delay dangerous, irreversible, life altering medical interventions until a person's brain has developed sufficiently?

 

[Firenze]

@Firenze, it sounds like you are somehow combining the ideas of biological sex and stereotypical gender into one concept?

I think that gender as a concept should be replaced by personalities, and that we can all easily acknowledge that there are infinite personalities that allow for things like tomboys and effeminate boys.

So what's wrong with the idea that there are two sexes and infinite personalities? When wouldn't that be a useful and compassionate orientation?

It would certainly be useful if it stopped the bigots from demonizing the ‘personalities’ they already decided are worthy of demonizing, but you solution wouldn’t do one thing to solve that problem, would it?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

The trans idea is not lazy at all because it recognizes the importance of brain development in how an individual determines their gender.

My gender is predominantly heterosexual. I determined that by recognizing that I have a penis, testes, testosterone - and an almost religious worship of *****. Morphology + Brain.

Your gender is predominantly heterosexual? And I’m the one who is in over my head on this issue?

You have a naive and romantic idea about how much trans activists determine gender identity based on brain development. There seems to be a lot of convoluted, motivated reasoning disguised in scientific rhetoric in your, uh, unique view on gender.

 

[Firenze]

So @Firenze , a couple of thoughts, based on your post #347:

- do you think gender is fluid?
- if you believe (as I do, and as you just said), that it takes a certain level of brain development to help a person determine their gender, then doesn't it make sense to delay dangerous, irreversible, life altering medical interventions until a person's brain has developed sufficiently?

Of course. But who should make that determination? You? Religion? Government? I’m in favor of letting families make those decisions pursuant to the best medical knowledge available - just like they do for every complex decision. For one child it might be appropriate at 9, for another 13, for another 16. Not my business - or yours.

 

[HonestJoe]

No, there are not. 2 + 2 will NEVER = 5. And women do not have penises. Some trans women have penises, but a trans woman is NOT a woman. I'm sorry of that hurts your feelings, but it's far more dangerous to tell the lie.

That somewhat contradicts your claim to be tolerant towards people in general and only opposing "trans activists". The journalists you're moaning about aren't (necessarily) "trans activists" at all, they're just following common practice based on the statements they're reporting on. It's even possible some of them object to the whole thing as much as you do.

The fact is that some trans women are identified with she/her pronouns in various contexts, including in court. I'm sorry that hurts your feelings, but it'd be wrong for journalists not to reflect that fact when reporting on the proceedings. That's distinct from any or the various questions about transgender people in various different contexts. Even if you're insisting that "a trans woman isn't a woman" (despite the clue in the phrase), that wouldn't come close to addressing any of those actual questions, including the relatively minor one this article purports to be about.

 

[Firenze]

Your gender is predominantly heterosexual? And I’m the one who is in over my head on this issue?

You have a naive and romantic idea about how much trans activists determine gender identity based on brain development. There seems to be a lot of convoluted, motivated reasoning disguised in scientific rhetoric in your, uh, unique view on gender.

Your demonizing of trans activists is just you afraid of a boogeyman that doesn’t exist. Please show us evidence of these evil activists you claim are hiding in bushes trying to ‘turn kids trans’. Because without actual evidence, your claim is immature and delusional - and more than a little disgusting.

 

[McBell]

Your demonizing of trans activists is just you afraid of a boogeyman that doesn’t exist. Please show us evidence of these evil activists you claim are hiding in bushes trying to ‘turn kids trans’. Because without actual evidence, your claim is immature and delusional - and more than a little disgusting.

You think they will respond with dog fighting videos?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Your demonizing of trans activists is just you afraid of a boogeyman that doesn’t exist. Please show us evidence of these evil activists you claim are hiding in bushes trying to ‘turn kids trans’. Because without actual evidence, your claim is immature and delusional - and more than a little disgusting.

Right, so this discussion at root is about advocacy. Gender is relative except for the claims of those on the wrong side. You had to enter into the discussion and use the label “uneducated, angry bigot” because you spotted someone on the wrong side.

 

[icehorse]

Of course. But who should make that determination? You? Religion? Government? I’m in favor of letting families make those decisions pursuant to the best medical knowledge available - just like they do for every complex decision. For one child it might be appropriate at 9, for another 13, for another 16. Not my business - or yours.

NO ONE KNOWS how an individual's GD will resolve (or not), until after puberty. NO ONE.

So when a GD kid is put on drugs prematurely all we have is a BIG MAYBE:

1 - MAYBE that kid would have retained their GD through puberty, and MAYBE GAC drugs would have helped.
2 - MAYBE that kid would have gone thru puberty and simply discovered that they were gay.

So how many gay kid's lives are you will to destroy based on those MAYBEs ??

==

Now I understand that if we had a crystal ball, and we could definitely determine how a kid would emerge from puberty and adolescence, trans or not, then I understand that - in some ways - it's preferable to start a trans kid on drugs early. But NO ONE has such a crystal ball.

In addition, trans activists have been very effective in promoting the idea that these drugs are safe and reversible. They are not!

This lack of transparency is telling.

And finally, OTOH you think gender is fluid, but on the other hand you support irreversible interventions on kids? What if they would have later decided that their earlier sense of gender had altered??

 

[Treasure Hunter]

You think they will respond with dog fighting videos?

Are you posting this to me or did you finally figure out how forum interaction works?

 

[icehorse]

That somewhat contradicts your claim to be tolerant towards people in general and only opposing "trans activists". The journalists you're moaning about aren't (necessarily) "trans activists" at all, they're just following common practice based on the statements they're reporting on. It's even possible some of them object to the whole thing as much as you do.

The fact is that some trans women are identified with she/her pronouns in various contexts, including in court. I'm sorry that hurts your feelings, but it'd be wrong for journalists not to reflect that fact when reporting on the proceedings. That's distinct from any or the various questions about transgender people in various different contexts. Even if you're insisting that "a trans woman isn't a woman" (despite the clue in the phrase), that wouldn't come close to addressing any of those actual questions, including the relatively minor one this article purports to be about.

It is dangerous for women in many ways for society to agree that a "trans woman is a women". I would direct you to a website called "sex-matters" if you're actually interested in understanding these dangers.

 

[McBell]

Are you posting this to me or did you finally figure out how forum interaction works?

All need to do is look at the quoted post at the top of the post you are replying to.
Was it a post by you?
Nope.
So then it was not a reply to you, right?

Seems your understanding of how forum interactions work is somewhat lacking....

So much for your alleged "moving on"....

​

...​

I’m moving on now - not a big deal. Have a good night.​

 

[icehorse]

Your demonizing of trans activists is just you afraid of a boogeyman that doesn’t exist. Please show us evidence of these evil activists you claim are hiding in bushes trying to ‘turn kids trans’. Because without actual evidence, your claim is immature and delusional - and more than a little disgusting.

Here's just one example of violent trans activists. If you do a little internet searching you will find many more:

Now you might say "Well Posie Parker is hateful". In which case, you better go find an example of her being hateful.