"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[Father Heathen]

All good things, but not at the expense of women and confused gay kids.

That makes zero sense. sexual attraction is different from sexual identity.

Why not pursue all of those things without making it zero-sum, which is the nature of much of the trans activist's agenda.

For example, why can't we just say that a trans woman is a trans woman?

We can't?

Why can't we say that there are two sexes and infinite personalities?

Can't you say that or whatever while still respecting others and their rights?

Why can't we allow lesbians to just be same sex attracted?

What on earth are you babbling about?

 

[icehorse]

That makes zero sense. sexual attraction is different from sexual identity.

We can't?

Can't you say that or whatever while still respecting others and their rights?

What on earth are you babbling about?

All of the things I just mentioned are things that trans activists violently demand that we not say. If you dare say those things the TAs are likely to shower their hate on you, threaten you, cancel you if they can.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

We can't?

You actually can call a trans woman a trans woman.

But @icehorse seems to want to call them a trans woman on one hand, while denying that they're a woman on the other, and seems to be saying that shouldn't be offensive.

 

[Father Heathen]

All of the things I just mentioned are things that trans activists violently demand that we not say. If you dare say those things the TAs are likely to shower their hate on you, threaten you, cancel you if they can.

I've never heard anyone make "violent demands" against women, lesbians, or gay kids. Other than conservatives, that is.

 

[Bthoth]

I'm sorry, "her penis" is a lie. It's not nuanced or complex, it's a lie.

This article starts by relating one incident, but then refers to many more:

‘Her penis’ – the most Orwellian phrase of our age

It's not a lie. It's an oxymoron of terms. About like 'old news'.

I did not scan the article. But the terms used and conversations of the thread are kind of cute to observe

 

[icehorse]

I've never heard anyone make "violent demands" against women, lesbians, or gay kids. Other than conservatives, that is.

Well then, if you're interested in reducing misogyny and homophobia, you should get yourself up to speed on the actions of trans activists who are sneaking misogyny and homophobia in the back door.

You can start by watching the short video on post 375.
But it's a big topic, so you're on your own after that.

 

[icehorse]

You actually can call a trans woman a trans woman.

But @icehorse seems to want to call them a trans woman on one hand, while denying that they're a woman on the other, and seems to be saying that shouldn't be offensive.

A trans woman is a trans woman, and you're correct, that's okay to say. But if you say that a trans woman is not a woman, that can get you in a heap of trouble.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

A trans woman is a trans woman, and you're correct, that's okay to say. But if you say that a trans woman is not a woman, that can get you in a heap of trouble.

Correct.

Although, calling someone a "trans woman", then saying they're not a woman, creates confusion for others, because the term "trans woman" has the word "woman" in the title.

As it is, a trans woman might be seen as a woman, they're just not seen as a cis woman.

Although, I think I'll pass on a discussion/debate of the term "cis" because it's a discussion that if I recall, has already been had in the past, and I doubt minds have changed since then, so it'd just be rehashing the same discussion.

 

[icehorse]

Correct.

Although, calling someone a "trans woman", then saying they're not a woman, creates confusion for others, because the term "trans woman" has the word "woman" in the title.

As it is, a trans woman might be seen as a woman, they're just not seen as a cis woman.

Although, I think I'll pass on a discussion/debate of the term "cis" because it's a discussion that if I recall, has already been had in the past, and I doubt minds have changed since then, so it'd just be rehashing the same discussio

But the thing is that a trans woman is NOT a woman, and to be forced to say the opposite is textbook Orwellian.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

But the thing is that a trans woman is NOT a woman, and to be forced to say the opposite is textbook Orwellian.

Still, this is a pretty extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require great proof.

And I realize that the other side may say that it's an extraordinary claim to say a trans woman IS a woman, and we could go in circles...

The thing is, to go against the science, the medical science, the accounts of trans people, and one's political side... that's not just something that could or should be decided willy-nilly. So I'd say that to convince the other side of these claims, even in a debate, would take extraordinary proof and the bar is set very high. Even more so for someone like me, who rejects the notion that just because something is changed from an older way, means the older way is "common sense".

And I've heard the arguments so far. I don't feel they meet that bar. For example, there was the claim earlier in this thread or the other thread that trans women were expecting lesbians to date them, then "getting mad when they didn't".

I've been in trans groups. Oftentimes, like 50% of the time, it's true that trans women may like women. Not because they're predators, but because half the time, sexual orientation doesn't change with transition. Anyway, a lot of the trans women I've met, would actually feel safer dating other trans women, because there are a few lesbians out there who are TERFs, and the trans women feel that creates safety issues as a marginalized group. There are also lesbians who very much welcome trans women in their circles (whether or not they would go out with them - some would, some wouldn't).

I also think it's important not to get too narrow a picture from just a few accounts of a situation. A lot of trans people seem to support the LGBT+ community, some even support trans activism.

The problem with one pointing a finger, and saying that the trans people are misled/tricked/deceived/etc, is it would be like telling a person that you know what they want better than they do.

Even going against trans activism has its problems, and could make things worse for said trans people. Better to advocate against disruptive cis protestors who don't "read the room" and go to these events and just make things worse for cis and trans people both.

Another problem with advocating against trans activists, is it comes off as a bit "narrow focused", it might bring change, but there seem to be much bigger problems in the world, honestly. It just looks bad to point to something trying to function, not perfectly but a system very much trying to function, and point to that as a source of problems, when there's honestly much bigger problems and greater decay in the world.

 

[Father Heathen]

Well then, if you're interested in reducing misogyny and homophobia, you should get yourself up to speed on the actions of trans activists who are sneaking misogyny and homophobia in the back door.

You can start by watching the short video on post 375.
But it's a big topic, so you're on your own after that.

Nah. It makes zero sense, so I suspect something is being disingenuously misrepresented.

 

[icehorse]

Nah. It makes zero sense, so I suspect something is being disingenuously misrepresented.

Here's a bit of classic Stewart Lee:

And here's the standard RF equivalent:

Well I don't know anything about self-id laws, or the rape statistics of men being put in women's prisons, or what percentage of confused kids with gender dysphoria grow out of it naturally without drugs, or what JK Rowling actually said, or the attack on Posie Parker, or the cancellation of Graham Linehan, or the truth about puberty blockers, or WPATH's links to trans activists, or the Dutch Protocol, or the need for control groups in research, or Folx, or getplume, or the Cass Report, or Tavistock, but I think...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What's the trans movement?

Moving from bigoted rural places to larger cities where people don't care.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well I don't know anything about self-id laws, or the rape statistics of men being put in women's prisons, or what percentage of confused kids with gender dysphoria grow out of it naturally without drugs, or what JK Rowling actually said, or the attack on Posie Parker, or the cancellation of Graham Linehan, or the truth about puberty blockers, or WPATH's links to trans activists, or the Dutch Protocol, or the need for control groups in research, or Folx, or getplume, or the Cass Report, or Tavistock, but I think...

Consider this another quote of your intolerance. You've been shown time and time again to be very ignorant of the subject but yet here you are again trying to act like you know more and better than others and insist you ignorance holds the solution.

 

[Father Heathen]

Here's a bit of classic Stewart Lee:

And here's the standard RF equivalent:

Well I don't know anything about self-id laws, or the rape statistics of men being put in women's prisons, or what percentage of confused kids with gender dysphoria grow out of it naturally without drugs, or what JK Rowling actually said, or the attack on Posie Parker, or the cancellation of Graham Linehan, or the truth about puberty blockers, or WPATH's links to trans activists, or the Dutch Protocol, or the need for control groups in research, or Folx, or getplume, or the Cass Report, or Tavistock, but I think...

Except Lee listed fields of study and scientific disciplines, whereas your list is mostly just people who faced negative reaction from voicing bigoted opinions, and a transgender advocacy organization having links to transgender advocacy activists? How scandalous!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Except Lee listed fields of study and scientific disciplines, whereas your list is mostly just people who faced negative reaction from voicing bigoted opinions, and a transgender advocacy organization having links to transgender advocacy activists? How scandalous!

Yeah. They should all be like Autism Speaks and say horrible things things about trans people and see being trans as something to cure and go as far to having no trans people on the board of directors.

 

[HonestJoe]

It is dangerous for women in many ways for society to agree that a "trans woman is a women".

Taken to extreme that is possible, but it is also possible to be dangerous to assert that "a trans woman is a man".

My personal opinion is that trans women are women but trans women are also trans (the clue is in the phrase after all). Not all transgender people are the same and not all situations or environments are the same, so proposing any singular answer to cover every individual in ever circumstance is ridiculous. That is why the topic requires rational debate and discussion rather than blinkered knee-jerk reactions to individual phrases, or indeed cancelling people who express different opinions.

 

[Colt]

What's it to you?

When boys dress up like girls and go dominate girls' sports then I have an issue with it.

 

[Colt]

Yeah! You tell ‘em. Like that nasty civil rights movement that tried to normalize racial minorities. I bet that still pisses you off….

Not at all, that's the blue state Dixiecrats that started the Ku Klux Klan that you are thinking of.

 

[Father Heathen]

Not at all, that's the blue state Dixiecrats that started the Ku Klux Klan that you are thinking of.

Dixiecrats were southern red states, and were eventually absorbed by the republican party. Also, the KKK was started by former officers of the confederacy, whose flag and monuments are worshipped by present day republicans. Slavery, segregation, etc. all happened in the south, which is hardcore MAGA territory. There's a reason that hate groups are far right.