"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[SkepticThinker]

I hadn't looked at it like this... but yes, you're right. It sounds like the same discussion.

If you go back further in time... wasn't there the same one about feminism as well?
Something like:
"those modern women activists, wearing trousers, smoking cigarettes and cutting their hair short - what is the world coming to? They will encourage our good wifes and daughters to act out, this cannot be accepted!!
I mean, I am not hateful, no, just the opposite: I am just concerned for their safety and happiness! This women's rights thing is just not natural. They will go and throw away their chastity, but in a few years they'll regret it for sure. I am just looking out for them."

Yeah, sounds familiar...

Yup! They just recycle the same talking points over and over again, just with a different group of marginalized people.

 

[SkepticThinker]

In golf the strength of a man dressed as a women will have an advantage, weightlifting, wrestling, swimming etc. Maybe if they stay in the sports as the men that they are it would be more acceptable, at least until this fad fades away.

Your list included 6 cyclists, 2 mountain bikers, 1 BMX biker, 1 weightlifter, 1 billiards player, 1 darts player, 2 golfers, 1 roller derbyer, 1 volleyball player, 1 swimmer and 2 track and fielders.

 

[icehorse]

If you demonize trans folk because activists misbehave,
then should you also demonize blacks? They (as a group)
demonstrate far more, & cause far more violence.
Oh, there are also white folk who do the same.

And yet ANOTHER strawman! I gotta say, the frequency with which I get strawmanned is amazing.

For the umpteenth time: I have no issue with trans PEOPLE, my criticisms are lodged against trans activists who push needlessly divisive, zero-sum, misogynistic, homophobic agendas.

I think that for the most part my opponents here think they're arguing for inclusivity and tolerance and such good things, but that they haven't dug deeply enough into the actions of trans activists, and so are unwittingly supporting these bad agendas.

 

[icehorse]

Who is trying to make anyone "feel like they have the wrong bodies?"

It's actually the other way around.

Well one such group is activist teachers.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well one such group is activist teachers.

"Activist teachers" are making kids "feel like they have the wrong bodies?"
This is based on ..... ?

 

[Revoltingest]

And yet ANOTHER strawman!

You really ought'a consider that a standard
you apply to one group could be evaluated
by applying it to another. Reductio ad
absurdum results are illuminating.

 

[icehorse]

When have I suggested anything about "talk therapy alone?"

My numerous RF opponents - on the topic of GAC - support GAC, and I do not. I thought you'd skimmed through the thread, I didn't realize you just jumped in.

So my claim is that supporters of GAC need to demonstrate that GAC is more effective for GD kids than talk therapy alone. You would think, given how dangerous GAC is, that there would be high quality evidence that GAC is more effective than talk therapy alone, but no such evidence exists. Which is why I argue that GAC should be suspended for kids.

Why is it a "dangerous lie?"

The mantra "trans women are women" is dangerous for several reasons, but just as a start:

- It allows bad men access to women only safe spaces.
- It demeans women
- It puts an obvious lie into fundamental discourse

Now tell me why this mantra is even necessary? What's wrong with saying only that trans women are trans women?

So? I've met a lot of men that have gone ballistic when I've turned them down for a date. So what?

It seems to me that one implication of your comment here is that since the world isn't perfect, what's the big problem when biological men harass lesbians? Is that your intention?

 

[icehorse]

You really ought'a consider that a standard
you apply to one group could be evaluated
by applying it to another. Reductio ad
absurdum results are illuminating.

Can you connect the dots you're thinking about here? thanks

 

[Revoltingest]

Can you connect the dots you're thinking about here? thanks

No more than I've already tried.

 

[icehorse]

"Activist teachers" are making kids "feel like they have the wrong bodies?"
This is based on ..... ?

If this is a topic you're interested in, you really ought to use your search engine a bit.

We debate a lot of unusual topics here, as you know. My stance is to be very careful about asking for citations. To me, such requests, are often used in bad faith. I'm not saying that you did that in this case. If we assume that posters are operating in good faith, then I think it's reasonable - when you know you're not up to date on a topic - to do a tiny bit of research on your own.

thanks.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

- It allows bad men access to women only safe spaces.

Studies show it doesn't. Trans inclusivity does not correlate with any increase in any kind of abuse, any more than the argument that increasing gay acceptance lead to widespread child abuse. Your logic is literally no different.

- It demeans women

How?

- It puts an obvious lie into fundamental discourse

In what way is it either a "lie" or "dangerous"?

 

[icehorse]

You can't seriously believe these are the kinds of scenarios we're talking about here.
Where do you get this idea that "parents want trans children?" Or that parents are pushing gender dysphoria on their kids? What for?

Well - sometimes - parents are so homophobic that trans feels like a better option.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There is no such thing as a trans or non-binary child.

Here's one I don't feel you should be allowed to live down because this one is so crappy you are erasing us amd denying we even exist and saying we just cannot actually know when we're a kid even though we often know as a kid.
Yes, I'm going to keep bringing stuff like this up as long as you keep claiming to not be prejudiced against trans people.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Well - sometimes - parents are so homophobic that trans feels like a better option.

Ah yes, this is totally a thing that happens, I am sure.

Your feeble attempt to disguise your anti-trans position as a pro-gay position isn't working.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

- It allows bad men access to women only safe spaces.

More garbage on your part, doing nothing more than repeating the bogus claims of homophobes who screamed sexual assaults would rise amd other inappropriate things would become acceptable.

 

[icehorse]

23 from 2008 to 2022.
How many competitions/events/etc. were there during that time frame?
I ask because your article does not offer up any number other than the 23.
Is that out of 100 events?
1,000 events?
100,000 events?

Your article does not answer the question "How big a problem is this?"
Of course, it was not trying to.

How many girls' dreams is it okay to shatter - in your opinion? What I'm inferring from your questions here - correct me if I'm wrong - is that you think it's more important to empower trans women than it is to empower women?

That's textbook intersectionality theory - ugh.

 

[icehorse]

Ah yes, this is totally a thing that happens, I am sure.

Your feeble attempt to disguise your anti-trans position as a pro-gay position isn't working.

I see you failed to do you "strawman" homework. I'm not going to further respond to your posts if they include such transparent fallacies.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I see you failed to do you "strawman" homework.

You're determined to keep using that word without understanding what it means. Literally, all I did was quote you. I didn't even re-state your argument.

I'm not going to further respond to your posts if they include such transparent fallacies.

You mean, fallacies like the ones you continually commit?

Stop pretending you're pro-gay when you're just anti-trans. Nobody is buying it.

 

[icehorse]

That reason, compassion, and liberty prevails over arbitrary, irrational, bigoted nonsense?

Much of trans activism pushes zero-sum solutions. So are you favoring trans people over women and gay people in the pursuit of reason, compassion and liberty?

Why not pursue only solutions that are not zero-sum?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

How many girls' dreams is it okay to shatter - in your opinion? What I'm inferring from your questions here - correct me if I'm wrong - is that you think it's more important to empower trans women than it is to empower women?

Rather than couching this in terms that explicitly frame trans inclusion as a negative, why not ask the question: "what ways COULD we include trans people that is fair, equal, and does not put any particular group in a given field at a disadvantage?"

But, nah, scaremongering about trans women in sport is too tasty of an opportunity to pass up. Because, as we all know, everyone who balks about trans women "destroying women's sports" are, and always have been, absolutely massive, massive fans of womens' sports and really, really care about it. Totally.

That's textbook intersectionality theory - ugh.

You also literally have no idea what intersectionality theory is. Literally, that has NOTHING to do with it.

Just like that Stewart Lee extract you love to use (incidentally, Stewart Lee would agree with us and vociferously make fun of you on this topic):

"I may not know what intersectionality is, what best medical care is, what studies say, what doctors say, what definitions are, what sociology is, what a strawman is, how control groups are used, what statistics suggest, what women think, what gay people think, what laws say, what dictionaries say, what a sound argument is, what a fact is, how to cite a source, how to provide evidence, how to support an argument with evidence, why people disagree with Graham Lineham or J.K Rowling, or basic gender theory, but I think... Actually, it's not what I think. IT'S TRUE AND I KNOW IT AND ANYTHING ELSE IS A LIE!"