"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[Tamino]

For the umpteenth time: I have no issue with trans PEOPLE, my criticisms are lodged against trans activists who push needlessly divisive, zero-sum, misogynistic, homophobic agendas.

If this is indeed your intention, then we are in agreement on most points.
Just... I apologize, but I still feel like you're chasing ghosts, and doing more harm than good in the process.

To be clear: I AM a trans activist. I help run a support group for queer people in my small town, mostly to offer a safe space and a source of information for young people who might be struggling with their identity.
I do not see any evidence for anyone being pushed into transitioning and surgery - not in my immediate social group nor in the wider environment of queer activists in my network.
I have never heard of a lesbian being pressured to have sex with a trans person, or about any safe space for females being invaded by a male posing as trans.

You make it sound like there is this sinister, secret group of evil activists, leading us naive, well-meaning people astray... But I don't think they actually exist. There might be individual cases of someone overreacting, exploiting a loophole, or misjudging a situation - and of course we need to keep an eye out for that. But I don't see a widespread or structural issue.

On the other hand, I sure see some people who are pushing needlessly divisive or misogynistic agendas... and they're not trans activists!

I realize that my perspective is limited to Germany and to those things I know and notice, but take it as a single voice and a case study at least.

 

[Colt]

Your list included 6 cyclists, 2 mountain bikers, 1 BMX biker, 1 weightlifter, 1 billiards player, 1 darts player, 2 golfers, 1 roller derbyer, 1 volleyball player, 1 swimmer and 2 track and fielders.

So? Boys and girls need to stay in their spheres of existence when it comes to competitive sports.

 

[icehorse]

Rather than couching this in terms that explicitly frame trans inclusion as a negative, why not ask the question: "what ways COULD we include trans people that is fair, equal, and does not put any particular group in a given field at a disadvantage?"

In post after post after post I have been suggesting that we find non-zero-sum solutions. Are we agreed on this point?

You also literally have no idea what intersectionality theory is. Literally, that has NOTHING to do with it.

Actually, there might be an opportunity for some actual discussion here.

It could be that we agree on what intersectionality is, but that we disagree that this is an example of intersectionality. So I think it would be useful to see which it is.

So, no snark, can you tell me your definition of intersectionality?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

In post after post after post I have been suggesting that we find non-zero-sum solutions. Are we agreed on this point?

I agree that the solution to finding a place for trans people in sport is not to use women's sport to scaremonger about a threat that is virtually nonexistent. And I'm not convinced you want to find any kind of solution. I'm of the opinion you just hate trans people.

Oh please, teach me what intersectionality theory is.

I tried in that thread a long time ago, and apparently none of it stuck.

 

[Father Heathen]

Much of trans activism pushes zero-sum solutions. So are you favoring trans people over women and gay people in the pursuit of reason, compassion and liberty?

False dilemma, and the political forces behind the transgender witch hunt don't give a **** about women and gays, anyway.

 

[icehorse]

I agree that the solution to finding a place for trans people in sport is not to use women's sport to scaremonger about a threat that is virtually nonexistent. And I'm not convinced you want to find any kind of solution. I'm of the opinion you just hate trans people.


I tried in that thread a long time ago, and apparently none of it stuck.

i amended my post #508..

 

[ImmortalFlame]

i amended my post #508..

Wiki it.

 

[icehorse]

False dilemma, and the political forces behind the transgender witch hunt don't give a **** about women and gays, anyway.

I've been advocating for non-zero-sum solutions. So step 1 - do you agree that much of trans activism pushes zero-sum solutions?

The "transgender witch hunt" seems like a different topic, but can you give any stats on this? I understand it's a common talking point, but I'm not sure the stats hold up. I just posted a link to an article that provides stats that trans people's murder rates are no higher than aveage in the population.

 

[Father Heathen]

The "transgender witch hunt" seems like a different topic, but can you give any stats on this?

2024 Anti-Trans Bills: Trans Legislation Tracker

2024 anti-trans bills tracker. Explore data on U.S. anti-trans legislation including passed bills and themes including sports, bathrooms, healthcare, pronouns, drag shows, and education.

translegislation.com

 

[metis]

These 23 trans women have won national competitions or titles

Out of how many sporting events? It also seems that you wish them to be dismissed in participating in sports as there are so few trans in sports that it would be pretty much impossible for them to have their own leagues.

 

[SkepticThinker]

My numerous RF opponents - on the topic of GAC - support GAC, and I do not. I thought you'd skimmed through the thread, I didn't realize you just jumped in.

I haven't just jumped in.

So my claim is that supporters of GAC need to demonstrate that GAC is more effective for GD kids than talk therapy alone. You would think, given how dangerous GAC is, that there would be high quality evidence that GAC is more effective than talk therapy alone, but no such evidence exists. Which is why I argue that GAC should be suspended for kids.

That seems to have been done (and continues to be done), and numerous studies have been provided throughout the thread.

The mantra "trans women are women" is dangerous for several reasons, but just as a start:

- It allows bad men access to women only safe spaces.

No it doesn't. You and I went over this already, a while back.

- It demeans women

How?

- It puts an obvious lie into fundamental discourse

If a trans woman says she feels like a woman, that doesn't affect me in the slightest.

Now tell me why this mantra is even necessary? What's wrong with saying only that trans women are trans women?

You're just claiming it's some sort of mantra.

It seems to me that one implication of your comment here is that since the world isn't perfect, what's the big problem when biological men harass lesbians? Is that your intention?

That's your implication:
Some trans woman go ballistic if they're refused by lesbians.

Some cismen go ballistic if they're refused by ciswomen too.
And some people don't like meatloaf.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If this is a topic you're interested in, you really ought to use your search engine a bit.

I've just come across your claim just now.

We debate a lot of unusual topics here, as you know. My stance is to be very careful about asking for citations. To me, such requests, are often used in bad faith. I'm not saying that you did that in this case. If we assume that posters are operating in good faith, then I think it's reasonable - when you know you're not up to date on a topic - to do a tiny bit of research on your own.

thanks.

Your claim sounds made up. Sorry, just being honest.

I don't really need a lecture about how you don't like providing evidence for your claims. I've read it before.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well - sometimes - parents are so homophobic that trans feels like a better option.

Yeah, 'cause people who are bigoted towards gay people are super accepting of trans people.

Come on.

 

[SkepticThinker]

How many girls' dreams is it okay to shatter - in your opinion? What I'm inferring from your questions here - correct me if I'm wrong - is that you think it's more important to empower trans women than it is to empower women?

That's textbook intersectionality theory - ugh.

Do you have a problem with transmen competing in sports alongside biological men?

 

[SkepticThinker]

So? Boys and girls need to stay in their spheres of existence when it comes to competitive sports.

Even billiards and darts? Why?

 

[Colt]

Even billiards and darts? Why?

Because to make one exception is to greenlight all others. Just stay in your lane!

 

[icehorse]

hat seems to have been done (and continues to be done), and numerous studies have been provided throughout the thread.

nope. Many variations on the theme have been offered, but none have addressed the concern directly.

So again: Where are studies that compare the efficacy of GAC drugs / surgeries against the efficacy of talk therapy only?

And do you agree or disagree that such studies are crucial?

Do you have a problem with transmen competing in sports alongside biological men?

In general in society we welcome people who want to "punch up" but we abhor people who try to "punch down"/

Do you agree with that?

So no, I'm not concerned with trans men competing against men, they are punching up.

 

[icehorse]

I've just come across your claim just now.

Your claim sounds made up. Sorry, just being honest.

I don't really need a lecture about how you don't like providing evidence for your claims. I've read it before.

There are reasonable requests and unreasonable. In several recent threads I have provided strong citations, and in those threads the response is mostly crickets. So go back and read those citations and then ask for more. But why should I repeat myself?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Because to make one exception is to greenlight all others. Just stay in your lane!

Perhaps it shows us that there are some sports that do not need to be segregated by sex at all.

I mean, I can whip my husband's backside in a game of billiards pretty easily. I'm four inches shorter than him and weigh about 70 pounds less than he does.

 

[SkepticThinker]

nope. Many variations on the theme have been offered, but none have addressed the concern directly.

I disagree.

So again: Where are studies that compare the efficacy of GAC drugs / surgeries against the efficacy of talk therapy only?
And do you agree or disagree that such studies are crucial?

I know that several posters have already thoroughly addressed this with you. I've nothing to add.

In general in society we welcome people who want to "punch up" but we abhor people who try to "punch down"/

Do you agree with that?

So no, I'm not concerned with trans men competing against men, they are punching up.

Interesting.