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Holes in the trinity

savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
sojourner said:
The Son is the Word. Ref. John 1.
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The writer of John seems to be alone calling Jesus the word and the word God so there is no reference. That means we must THINK. Or is that not OK?

In the beginning was the word and the word was with the god and god was the word.

Let us digest the third was. It looks like some people have thought it means IS or exists.
Later it is written that Peter when asked if he was a disciple of Jesus he said "I am not". Present tense. The fact that God is not like us who are bound in time, it should be wrong to talk about it is the past tense.

In the beginning IS the word and the word IS with God and God is the word.

I think most people (those who believe in Jesus Christ) can agree that God's purpose for the Earth IS Jesus Christ. Whatever God is doing IS , all of it, related to God's word.

So, when can we have that prayer day for prepositions?
 
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lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
what if the Holy Spirit IS actually the Father, or at least His power or life force? then there is no third "person". just the Father and the Son and the Father's power or life force, but not a separate being. the Bible says that a man has a spirit but no one says the man and his spirit are two separate beings. why should God and His spirit be two separate beings. there is no trinity. just the Father and Son. the fact that the Father has a spirit does not make three.
 
savagewind

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
lostwanderingsoul said:
what if the Holy Spirit IS actually the Father, or at least His power or life force? then there is no third "person". just the Father and the Son and the Father's power or life force, but not a separate being. the Bible says that a man has a spirit but no one says the man and his spirit are two separate beings. why should God and His spirit be two separate beings. there is no trinity. just the Father and Son. the fact that the Father has a spirit does not make three.
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It is written Jesus will send the Holy Spirit and that it is poured out upon people.
 
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lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
would you really "pour out" a "person"? the Spirit is described as a wind or a dove or eve flames on the heads of the apostles. this does not sound like a "person" but like some Godly power. Why couldn't Jesus send the Father's power to work on people. this does not prove the Holy Spirit is a third "person". it just shows God has a spirit and it is holy.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
savagewind said:
The writer of John seems to be alone calling Jesus the word and the word God so there is no reference. That means we must THINK. Or is that not OK?
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So, now you're imposing corroboration onto the texts?? That's very nice. The writer wrote what the writer wrote. Regardless of what someone else has or does not have to say. that writing is taken at the same value as other texts.
savagewind said:
Let us digest the third was. It looks like some people have thought it means IS or exists.
Later it is written that Peter when asked if he was a disciple of Jesus he said "I am not". Present tense. The fact that God is not like us who are bound in time, it should be wrong to talk about it is the past tense.
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Literary devices simply aren't disseminated in this way.
lostwanderingsoul said:
what if the Holy Spirit IS actually the Father, or at least His power or life force? then there is no third "person".
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The Holy Spirit isn't the Father. They are two separate Persons, just as Jesus is a separate Person. Yet all three distinct Persons are one God.
lostwanderingsoul said:
Bible says that a man has a spirit
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The bible says that man is a spirit. We became nephesh when God breathed Spirit into clay forms.
savagewind said:
The reason I exist as I am is my son. John 1:1
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Yeah, except that's not what that says.
 
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Eileen

Member
In the English translation of John he seems a bit confused here as he says Yeshua will send the Father's Spirit but he also says the Father will send His Spirit but that is not necessarily a contradiction as it is the Father Who sends His Spirit in Yeshua's name or more accurately for the sake of Yeshua's name. The Spirit is HaShem's Spirit of Holiness and He bestows it upon us as we imitate/follow Yeshua's example.
 
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lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
nephesh is translated beast or creature or animal. the Bible says man became a living soul not spirit. and "soul" is a poor translation. it should just say man became a living creature. but it does say there is a spirit in man. that is the life force or power that makes him unique. and it is not a separate "person" so why should God's spirit be a separate "person" in a trinity?
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
lostwanderingsoul said:
nephesh is translated beast or creature or animal. the Bible says man became a living soul not spirit. and "soul" is a poor translation. it should just say man became a living creature. but it does say there is a spirit in man. that is the life force or power that makes him unique. and it is not a separate "person" so why should God's spirit be a separate "person" in a trinity?
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The Hebrew word translated as "living being" is nephesh. And that word is only used in the creation account when speaking of humanity. It is the Spirit of God, blown into our nostrils at the time of creation, that makes us living souls.
 
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Eileen

Member
As to the 'word' in John 1 it was not always translated with the pronoun 'he' and trough John 1:5 (at least) should be translated with the pronoun 'it' referring to the spoken word of HaShem or HaShem's plan or thought or purpose. Trinitarians will not agree with this but it is a legitimate translation. It was the Latin Vulgate (the forerunner of the Catholic bible) that first translated this so as to make Jesus equal the word. Although I agree that Yeshua is the living word of HaShem because he actually was born to completely live the word as it applied to him as an example to us that it can be done.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
savagewind said:
That is correct
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This:
The reason I exist as I am is my son. John 1:1
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is clearly not what John 1:1 says, though. Clearly.

To wit:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
The text says nothing referring to "reason for existence." It says nothing remotely referring to a "son."
It refers to the "word" being in existence in the beginning. It clearly says that that "word" was "with God" and "was God."
 
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lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
nephesh is used several times in Genesis when telling of the other animals that were created. also, if the Spirit of God is blown into our nostrils, then is that the same as the Holy Spirit? I thought God breathed the "breath of life" into Adam. that is not the same as God's spirit. it was not until thousands of years later that Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Eileen said:
As to the 'word' in John 1 it was not always translated with the pronoun 'he' and trough John 1:5 (at least) should be translated with the pronoun 'it' referring to the spoken word of HaShem or HaShem's plan or thought or purpose. Trinitarians will not agree with this but it is a legitimate translation. It was the Latin Vulgate (the forerunner of the Catholic bible) that first translated this so as to make Jesus equal the word. Although I agree that Yeshua is the living word of HaShem because he actually was born to completely live the word as it applied to him as an example to us that it can be done.
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Doesn't matter. The intent is clear that the word is God and that the word became flesh and lived among us in the person of Jesus.
 
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