horrors of religion

[tumbleweed41]

Once again, bad application of what I am talking about, these people are only in protest. Actually it would take more courage to oppose an armed force with a weapon, stupid maybe, but certainly more courage than sticking a flower in the muzzle of a gun.

Why a bad application? These are Pacifist Protesters, much like the pacifists guned down in Ohio. Or the pacifists killed in Burma, Tienanmen Square, etc....

You are saying it takes more courage to raise a weapon in protest against an armed force than to face them weaponless?

 

[richardlowellt]

If your premise cannot stand pacifistic protesting, then perhaps the premise is flawed.

You may protest all you want, it doesn't take a pacifist to protest, many of my friends protested the war in Viet Nam and were not pacifist, hell I even did a little protesting of my own, but ended up over there anyway.

 

[richardlowellt]

I think you definition of a pacifist is overly simple.

A pacifist avoids conflict when possible. This does not make them a coward in the face of adversary.

As a former member of the US Military, I know of that which I speak.

I disagree, I have been told that a pacifist simply will not kill another human regardless of the circumstances. Are there varying degree's of pacifism?

 

[J Bryson]

I think you know what I am talking about, and its not a battle of words, but if it were then of course I would rather have a strong pen rather than a sword.

Exactly. What I'm saying is that not all battles are fought with guns, and not all bravery involves the willingness to commit violence against another.

I'm still hoping for the examples of Gandhi using violence when it suited him. I suspect that my request got lost in the flood of responses to your posts.

 

[J Bryson]

I disagree, I have been told that a pacifist simply will not kill another human regardless of the circumstances. Are there varying degree's of pacifism?

Yes..

 

[tumbleweed41]

It was stared by two leaders who sought world domination, call them warmongers if you like, pacifists lack the courage to start a war.

So then Hitler and the Japanese Emperor were courageous? They had the courage to start wars?

As I said before, a pacifist will avoid conflict when possible. But this does not exclude them from facing adversary when necessary.

True courage is avoiding a fight when possible.
You are confusing courage with aggression, and pacifism with cowardliness.

 

[J Bryson]

You may protest all you want, it doesn't take a pacifist to protest, many of my friends protested the war in Viet Nam and were not pacifist, hell I even did a little protesting of my own, but ended up over there anyway.

I never said that it took a pacifist to protest. What I stated was that the young man in the picture was a pacifist, and that he showed remarkable bravery in the face of possible death.

 

[richardlowellt]

Why a bad application? These are Pacifist Protesters, much like the pacifists guned down in Ohio. Or the pacifists killed in Burma, Tienanmen Square, etc....

You are saying it takes more courage to raise a weapon in protest against an armed force than to face them weaponless?

I'm saying to get yourself killed in protest is an act of stupidity when one could remain alive and look for more affective ways of protesting. Walking into cannon accomplishes nothing other than martyrdom.

 

[tumbleweed41]

On those that "ran to Canada", there were indeed those that avoided military service for no other reason than they were afraid, and then there were those who felt the entire war in Vietnam was morally wrong, and refused to participate.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I'm saying to get yourself killed in protest is an act of stupidity when one could remain alive and look for more affective ways of protesting. Walking into cannon accomplishes nothing other than martyrdom.

Martyrdom can be a brave and effective tool at times.

 

[J Bryson]

Martyrdom can be a brave and effective tool at times.

True. If not, then we'd be seeing swords on churches rather than crosses.

 

[tumbleweed41]

When Reagan was Governor of California he stated that he was about to use heavy force on protesters to the Vietnam war. After the student deaths in Ohio, he backed down.

The effectiveness of passivisim.

 

[elisheba]

The cross is an instrument of death..for crucifixion.

 

[J Bryson]

The cross is an instrument of death..for crucifixion.

Yes, but it's not the Romans being worshipped, but rather a man who willingly went to the cross with the idea that he would be expiating the world's sins by doing so.

 

[Riverwolf]

Next to me in battle I'll take someone with a sword over a pen any day.

As you should. In battle, the sword is greater than the pen. Outside of battle, the pen is mightier.

"Bunbu itchi," "Pen and Sword in accord."

 

[Riverwolf]

A Pacifist sits and watches as two men surround a family, young mother, father, and three young children, two girls and a boy, both men have guns and begin to torture the mother and children as the father is forced to watch, after raping the young mother she is slowly strangled to death, the attackers now turn on the young girls, soon all will be killed in a most horrible way, the pacifist has access to a gun and at anytime could stop this slaughter, but only by killing both men. In my opinion to sit idly by a do nothing is a criminal offense as well as a moral offense, by doing nothing the pacifist has done as much evil as those who murdered.

No.

The pacifist would not stand by idly.

Even us pacifists know that violence is sometimes the only way. After a quick 911 call, we'd do what we can.

 

[Riverwolf]

I disagree, I have been told that a pacifist simply will not kill another human regardless of the circumstances. Are there varying degree's of pacifism?

I am a pacifist, and I admit that the second world war was a war that needed to be fought.

 

[Riverwolf]

On those that "ran to Canada", there were indeed those that avoided military service for no other reason than they were afraid, and then there were those who felt the entire war in Vietnam was morally wrong, and refused to participate.

Or felt that America was not worth fighting for, as whatever ideals the founding fathers had in mind were lost, but could be found in Canada. (I do believe that Canada, based on what I know thus far, does a better job with American ideals than America does.)

 

[Riverwolf]

Those who would have followed gandhi would have set the country back a hundred years, millions would have starved, he walked around in rags but had visions of grandeur. I have no respect for ignorance, dogmatic thinking, those who are unpatriotic, and cowardly deeds.

Where do you get your information about Gandhi, anyway? (Be specific.)

 

[richardlowellt]

Why a bad application? These are Pacifist Protesters, much like the pacifists guned down in Ohio. Or the pacifists killed in Burma, Tienanmen Square, etc....

You are saying it takes more courage to raise a weapon in protest against an armed force than to face them weaponless?

If your in the vast minority with little or no chance for victory, then yes.