horrors of religion

[richardlowellt]

Exactly. What I'm saying is that not all battles are fought with guns, and not all bravery involves the willingness to commit violence against another.

I certainly will not disagree with this.

I'm still hoping for the examples of Gandhi using violence when it suited him. I suspect that my request got lost in the flood of responses to your posts.

In 1941 the Imperial Japanese Army conquered Malaya and Burma and was on the frontiers of India, believing this spelled the end of the raj, Gandhi chose this moment to boycott the political process and issue his notorious call for the British to "Quit India" Those who naively credit Gandhi with a conscientious of consistent pacifism might wish to ask if this did not amount to letting the Japanese imperialists do his fighting for him.

 

[richardlowellt]

So then Hitler and the Japanese Emperor were courageous? They had the courage to start wars?

Sometimes courage and fanaticism are hard to separate.

 

[J Bryson]

In 1941 the Imperial Japanese Army conquered Malaya and Burma and was on the frontiers of India, believing this spelled the end of the raj, Gandhi chose this moment to boycott the political process and issue his notorious call for the British to "Quit India" Those who naively credit Gandhi with a conscientious of consistent pacifism might wish to ask if this did not amount to letting the Japanese imperialists do his fighting for him.

Ah. So he took advantage of violence occurring elsewhere to throw off the yoke of those he saw as oppressing his people. I'm not going to fault him for seeing an opportunity and taking advantage of it, as ill-informed as he might have been.

 

[richardlowellt]

I never said that it took a pacifist to protest. What I stated was that the young man in the picture was a pacifist, and that he showed remarkable bravery in the face of possible death.

I really don't think this young man thought he was in much danger, in another country then maybe.

 

[richardlowellt]

On those that "ran to Canada", there were indeed those that avoided military service for no other reason than they were afraid, and then there were those who felt the entire war in Vietnam was morally wrong, and refused to participate.

I felt the war in Viet Nam was morally wrong, but as a citizen one does not have the option to chose which war he will or will not participate in. "I think this war is just so I'll fight, but this one is unjust so no I will not fight" It simply can not work that way, you fight when your Government tells you to. If this is a problem then don't elect leaders who's policies you disagree with.

 

[richardlowellt]

Martyrdom can be a brave and effective tool at times.

Your correct, one has to look no further than the islamic suicide bombers or those involved in 9/11. You might think these people were brave and their tools of violence effective, but I see them only as religious fanatics killing and maiming innocent humans.

 

[richardlowellt]

When Reagan was Governor of California he stated that he was about to use heavy force on protesters to the Vietnam war. After the student deaths in Ohio, he backed down.

The effectiveness of passivisim.

No, not really, the effectiveness of unpopular public opinion as it applies to politics and reelection.

 

[richardlowellt]

Or felt that America was not worth fighting for, as whatever ideals the founding fathers had in mind were lost, but could be found in Canada. (I do believe that Canada, based on what I know thus far, does a better job with American ideals than America does.)

Then perhaps you would be happier living in Canada, am wondering what is stopping you?

 

[J Bryson]

No, not really, the effectiveness of unpopular public opinion as it applies to politics and reelection.

Are you saying that public opinion wasn't largely swayed due to those deaths?

 

[richardlowellt]

Where do you get your information about Gandhi, anyway? (Be specific.)

By reading any books on the history of India.

 

[J Bryson]

By reading any books on the history of India.

Interesting. Which specific one or ones would you recommend?

 

[richardlowellt]

Ah. So he took advantage of violence occurring elsewhere to throw off the yoke of those he saw as oppressing his people. I'm not going to fault him for seeing an opportunity and taking advantage of it, as ill-informed as he might have been.

And by what knowledge are you led to believe Gandhi was "ill-informed?" Gandhi knew exactly what he was doing and what the consciences would be. He made no attempt, not even a token objection to the actions of Imperialist Japan.

 

[J Bryson]

And by what knowledge are you led to believe Gandhi was "ill-informed?" Gandhi knew exactly what he was doing and what the consciences would be. He made no attempt, not even a token objection to the actions of Imperialist Japan.

Ill-informed because that would leave India at the mercy of Japan, and he was naive as to their intentions. There's no way that he would have thrown off the English only to open the country to another imperialist exploiter.

 

[richardlowellt]

Are you saying that public opinion wasn't largely swayed due to those deaths?

I'm saying it wasn't pacifists who stopped Ragan from using more force on the protesters, it was unpopular public opinion with reelection at the core of his decision.

 

[richardlowellt]

Interesting. Which specific one or ones would you recommend?

The library is full of them, pick one,anyone!

 

[J Bryson]

I'm saying it wasn't pacifists who stopped Ragan from using more force on the protesters, it was unpopular public opinion with reelection at the core of his decision.

Public opinion which was affected due to the deaths at Kent State. Or did you think that the people who began to look askance at using violence against student demonstrators after Kent State were living in a vacuum?

 

[richardlowellt]

Public opinion which was affected due to the deaths at Kent State.
Yes, of course.

 

[Riverwolf]

I felt the war in Viet Nam was morally wrong, but as a citizen one does not have the option to chose which war he will or will not participate in. "I think this war is just so I'll fight, but this one is unjust so no I will not fight" It simply can not work that way, you fight when your Government tells you to. If this is a problem then don't elect leaders who's policies you disagree with.

Many of us don't. I would never vote for someone who had even the slightest hint of starting a meaningless war or getting involved in a war for no real reason.

 

[Riverwolf]

Then perhaps you would be happier living in Canada, am wondering what is stopping you?

Financial reasons, for one thing. I still live with my mother (I'm 21... yeah), and she's not planning on going anywhere. I do not have a job (yet), and am completely broke. (Before you say anything, I DID have a job at one point.)

For another, I'm still in school here, and do not have the resources to transfer.

Another thing, my GF still lives here, and for reasons I won't disclose here, can't leave just yet. But believe me when I say that both of us really want to get out of here and move to Canada.

 

[Riverwolf]

The library is full of them, pick one,anyone!

Even Gandhi's autobiography? Great. I was going to read that, anyway, at some point. ^_^