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horrors of religion

dogsgod

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
richardlowellt said:
The fool is the one who speculates that all humans are instinctive killers, shame on you for have such a lowly view of your fellow brothers and sisters of the planet. I only wish I were young, no I am old enough to know just how wrong you are, and have been in battle, have seen men die, have seen men refuse to kill even when their lives were threatened, have seen men kill for the fun of it, and have seen men kill to survive, so you might say I have seen men at both their worst and their best, but never have I come to the sick conclusion that you have, that all humans are instinctive killers.
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Humans are animals with instincts, killing instincts included, it's not uncommon for many animals to kill. I would think it not impossible for one not to kill when threatened, even less likely when family members are threatened, but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with maintaining one's principles, it would be more like from going into a state of shock, where one becomes paralyzed. So please, spare us the straw man arguments about pacifists.
 
tumbleweed41

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
I have to agree that all humans have the natural ability to kill. the unique ability of humans to control those ancient instincts is one of the many things that make us superior to the other great apes.

The pacifist recognizes that bit of humanity and wields it to the best of his ability. Assuming that a pacifist will stand by while weaker innocents are killed is indeed a strawman.
Suggesting that the pacifist will refuse to fight for what he or she sees as an unjustified war, or suggesting that a pacifist will lay down his life willingly, unarmed, to promote the cause in which he or she believes in would be a more accurate description.
 
R

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
dogsgod said:
Humans are animals with instincts, killing instincts included, it's not uncommon for many animals to kill. I would think it not impossible for one not to kill when threatened, even less likely when family members are threatened, but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with maintaining one's principles, it would be more like from going into a state of shock, where one becomes paralyzed. So please, spare us the straw man arguments about pacifists.
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Unfortunately you have no idea about which you speak. yes humans are animals and when backed into a corner may or may now kill to protect themselves, one never knows until that moment of truth. Are you so sure you would, could kill another human? I never knew for sure until I was forced into that situation, now I know. Just because we are animals does not mean we have a killing instinct. Most animals, most of the time only kill to feed themselves or to protect themselves from being eaten or when their young are threatened.

AsI have said before I have seen principles in action, so doubt if you may, I simply know better.
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
dogsgod said:
If you think principles are going to be considered in such a situation where humans are concerned, then you're the fool. Humans are instinctive killers, pacifists included given a situation. Perhaps you're young yet.
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I support this. I, a pacifist, do, in fact, have a killer instinct, and am perfectly capable of taking a life if there is an immediate danger to it. (Though I would turn myself in if I ever did.)
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
JMoum04 said:
And principled men can easily turn to savages when push comes to shove. Ever read Lord of the Flies?
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One of the books that I not only didn't like, but admit that it NEEDS to be read at least once.

To Richard, those men you've seen refuse to kill... are you under some impression that there was nothing within them that made them WANT to kill, and they were resisting that as much as their orders?
 
R

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
Riverwolf said:
I support this. I, a pacifist, do, in fact, have a killer instinct, and am perfectly capable of taking a life if there is an immediate danger to it. (Though I would turn myself in if I ever did.)
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I don't mean to be rude, but you are basically afraid to leave the protection of your home, afraid to go out on your own, and you would have us believe you would have to courage to kill another human? After all you have siad about never taking another life regardless of the situation?
 
R

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
Riverwolf said:
One of the books that I not only didn't like, but admit that it NEEDS to be read at least once.

To Richard, those men you've seen refuse to kill... are you under some impression that there was nothing within them that made them WANT to kill, and they were resisting that as much as their orders?
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They refused to kill based on their principals, taking another human life was unacceptable to them to the point where they were willing to die rather than kill, I know this as fact, I was there.
 
tumbleweed41

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
richardlowellt said:
We all have the ABILITY to kill, what's your point?
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Simply an answer to this...
richardlowellt said:
The fool is the one who speculates that all humans are instinctive killers, shame on you for have such a lowly view of your fellow brothers and sisters of the planet. I only wish I were young, no I am old enough to know just how wrong you are, and have been in battle, have seen men die, have seen men refuse to kill even when their lives were threatened, have seen men kill for the fun of it, and have seen men kill to survive, so you might say I have seen men at both their worst and their best, but never have I come to the sick conclusion that you have, that all humans are instinctive killers.
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That instinctive ability to kill is in all humans. It is our humanity that gives us the ability to control that instinct.
 
R

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
JMoum04 said:
You said yourself and I quote
The ability to kill and killer instincts are one and the same. Thank you for seeing things from our perspective.
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How foolish, they are not the same, having the ability to kill means we all are physically able to hold a gun, wield a knife, or perform any number of things that can cause death, having the INSTINCT to do such is quite different, I.m surprised you can't understand that.
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
richardlowellt said:
I don't mean to be rude, but you are basically afraid to leave the protection of your home, afraid to go out on your own, and you would have us believe you would have to courage to kill another human? After all you have siad about never taking another life regardless of the situation?
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Let's just say that I wouldn't. My instinct would do it all by itself.
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
richardlowellt said:
They refused to kill based on their principals, taking another human life was unacceptable to them to the point where they were willing to die rather than kill, I know this as fact, I was there.
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And can you tell whether or not they were struggling with that, as afraid to die as the rest of us, yet facing it anyway?
 
R

richardlowellt

Well-Known Member
Riverwolf said:
And can you tell whether or not they were struggling with that, as afraid to die as the rest of us, yet facing it anyway?
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I knew these men, lived with them under horrid circumstances, you get close to each other, you get close because you haver to rely on each other, have to trust the other, trust them with your life, they had no business being in that situation, putting me and others in danger, some of us wanted to shoot them right then and there, we almost did.
 
dogsgod

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
richardlowellt said:
And you know this how? I never knew until the moment was trust upon me, I don't think anyone really knows until that moment.
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From my own experience I have to agree with you. I'm a pacifist on principle but I too learned at that moment on more than one occasion, and I don't think I'm that different than any one else.
 
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