How can a Muslim woman consider it Honorable to wear the headscarf?

[outhouse]

These people are acting like tyrants

exactly, barbaric and primitive.

And from what ive seen here the majority like it and wont lift a finger to stop the blatant oppression OR VIOLENCE against inoccent women, there so used to oppression they cant tell the difference between freedom.

I also love how they try to turn our freedom they will never have into a negative

 

[SLAMH]

this is why the christian church did not impose dietary laws or any other requirements such as wearing things to prevent sin from occurring... its because laws dont make people righteous...

the mosaic laws which Mohammad reconfirmed for his people were unable to stop sin from occurring which is also why the christians discouraged people trying to live by it

I agree with you to some extent, however sometimes there are things which we use to express our personalties, who we are and how we think.

For example, I'd presume that you respect the flag of your country. The flag is nothing, but a piece of cotton. Still hold that by showing respect to this piece of cotton. Everyone will know that you are showing your love to your country. In that sense, it doesn't really mean that you are loyal to it, nor can anyone can tell what you actually think about it. However, this will never mean that the flag should be torn apart because anyone can show its respect regardless if they are betrayal of the country or loyal to it. At the end, The flag will remain as a symbol that represent the values of your country.

 

[Pegg]

I agree with you to some extent, however sometimes there are things which we use to express our personalties, who we are and how we think.

For example, I'd presume that you respect the flag of your country. The flag is nothing, but a piece of cotton. Still hold that by showing respect to this piece of cotton. Everyone will know that you are showing your love to your country. In that sense, it doesn't really mean that you are loyal to it, nor can anyone can tell what you actually think about it. However, this will never mean that the flag should be torn apart because anyone can show its respect regardless if they are betrayal of the country or loyal to it. At the end, The flag will remain as a symbol that represent the values of your country.

yeah i can see how your analogy works and your right if you want to highlight the type of culture you are from then naturally you would wear the things from your culture because that is the norm.

it makes way for another question though...something for all people to consider

Should culture dictate our way of worship to the creator?

 

[Pegg]

Sure. But it's not like that she's always in a bikini, pegg. She dress normally, like any woman, when she goes out in public, unless she's at the beach or the pool, or in a movie where she at the beach.

exactly, and yet if you google Jessica Alba images, you'll find all the nude pictures of her come up before the 'normal' ones where she is dressed...the reason is because the nudie pictures the ones most looked at online.

and just look at the pictures that Outhouse posted of her... both of her in a bikini rather then her dressed casually as you would see her if you saw her in real life.

I see no reason why she should have to look ugly for the sake of modesty.

so you think Jessica Alba in modest clothing makes her look ugly???

you'd rather see her without clothes??? Why? because you like to think of her in a sexual way and by stripping her you are able to see her in a sexual way.

 

[Pegg]

exactly, barbaric and primitive.

And from what ive seen here the majority like it and wont lift a finger to stop the blatant oppression OR VIOLENCE against inoccent women, there so used to oppression they cant tell the difference between freedom.

I also love how they try to turn our freedom they will never have into a negative

muslim women need to stand up for themselves the same way western women did 50 years ago

western women were in the same situation when it came to male expectations on them...it was only when they stood up together that things changed.

 

[gnostic]

exactly, and yet if you google Jessica Alba images, you'll find all the nude pictures of her come up before the 'normal' ones where she is dressed...the reason is because the nudie pictures the ones most looked at online.

and just look at the pictures that Outhouse posted of her... both of her in a bikini rather then her dressed casually as you would see her if you saw her in real life.

so you think Jessica Alba in modest clothing makes her look ugly???

you'd rather see her without clothes??? Why? because you like to think of her in a sexual way and by stripping her you are able to see her in a sexual way.

If you must really know, I have not seen any nude photo of Jessica Alba on the net, Pegg.

I am satisfy watching her films or tv series. I'm really not the person, like a fan who might scour the whole net about a particular person. I really don't know much about Alba, and I am not interested in. I don't have any photo of her, cloth or otherwise, on my pc.

Look, I love many of the songs from U2 and I have their cds, but I don't know much about them (meaning their personal lives), I don't collect merchandises. But I did see the concert last month in Melbourne, and it was great. I don't have their autographs, while they were here. All I am interested are their songs.

But I am not blind that she beautiful, whether she wear clothes or bikini. So all I am, I am interested in Alba's movies, but that the extent of my interests. Is her film good or enjoyable? If yes, then I might see another film of hers. If not, I may not.

I am this way with all the singers and actors. Don't care about personal lives (because it is their personal lives), and I don't go around collecting her photos.

 

[outhouse]

muslim women need to stand up for themselves the same way western women did 50 years ago

western women were in the same situation when it came to male expectations on them...it was only when they stood up together that things changed.

they are not in america, those that dont wear it while being forced will be beat. If they keep it up they will be killed.

they dont have the freedom to fight.

Just wearing the scarf is an advancement for them. Im sure those forced to wear the scarf are thankfull its not the full on burqa like many are forced to wear.

forced, oppressed and wanted and disliked all rolled up into tradition and religion surrounding many different cultures. Some civilized and some so barbaric and savage you dont question it or fight it.

 

[SLAMH]

yeah i can see how your analogy works and your right if you want to highlight the type of culture you are from then naturally you would wear the things from your culture because that is the norm.

Note that we don't have to agree, but at least try to understand why others are acting in this way or that way.

you will highlight the type of your culture if I someone ask you about it. Everyone does it.

Again, this not culture, but religion.

it makes way for another question though...something for all people to consider

Should culture dictate our way of worship to the creator?

reword your question, it is a religion not a culture.

 

[Pegg]

Note that we don't have to agree, but at least try to understand why others are acting in this way or that way.

you will highlight the type of your culture if I someone ask you about it. Everyone does it.

Again, this not culture, but religion.

im sorry i got the impression that you were speaking about culture when you wrote:
"sometimes there are things which we use to express our personalties, who we are and how we think."

i took that to mean culture. Are you calling it religion? So the hijab is a religious dress?
Someone elsewhere said it wasnt religious but a way to show ones honor, another said it was about modesty & showing ones self to not be interested in men, then you appeared to say it was about personalities and how you think.... im confused

its obviously a much more complicated piece of cloth then we appreciate.

 

[Madhuri]

exactly, barbaric and primitive.

And from what ive seen here the majority like it and wont lift a finger to stop the blatant oppression OR VIOLENCE against inoccent women, there so used to oppression they cant tell the difference between freedom.

I also love how they try to turn our freedom they will never have into a negative

To some extent I can see your point. But I also think that your idea of Western freedom is an illusion.

As a female, I don't feel like a free person in the west. My dress code, my behaviour, my life style is all dictated by cultural pressure. If I wear low cut tops and shorts and bikinis its because that's what's 'in'. Based on my analysis of society, I'd actually much rather if the norm was to wear more modest clothing and behave more modestly amongst each other. This would not be any more or less 'free' than what we experience in our West right now, it would just be another variety of cultural norms, customs and attitude.

As a female, I hate the obsession with sex and objectification of women in my culture. I know that a lot of women are sick of it. It goes too far. But I don't think that men have much of a problem with it for obvious reasons. But they rarely realise that our culture is still patriarchal (or care). Women are not free in our society, and we're rarely happy. No, most of us end up with cheating partners, end up being single mums who have to raise our kids and work to survive. It sucks. Freedom? That is such an illusion.

 

[Pegg]

As a female, I hate the obsession with sex and objectification of women in my culture. I know that a lot of women are sick of it. It goes too far. But I don't think that men have much of a problem with it for obvious reasons. But they rarely realise that our culture is still patriarchal. Women are not free in our society, and we're rarely happy. No, most of us end up with cheating partners, end up being single mums who have to raise our kids and work to survive. It sucks. Freedom? That is such an illusion.

:bow:

(except for the cheating partner bit...my hubbies a lovely man...although none of my mums were and she was left destitute with 3 kids to raise on her own so i know exactly what you mean)

 

[SLAMH]

im sorry i got the impression that you were speaking about culture when you wrote:
"sometimes there are things which we use to express our personalties, who we are and how we think."

no, you misunderstood me.

I was talking generally to show that symbols sometimes can be used to represent some values. It can be used for cultures, religions and even for football teams.

i took that to mean culture. Are you calling it religion? So the hijab is a religious dress?

:yes: Hijab is religious dress.

Someone elsewhere said it wasnt religious but a way to show ones honor, another said it was about modesty & showing ones self to not be interested in men,

because there are different sects, different sects Pegg

then you appeared to say it was about personalities and how you think.... im confused

its obviously a much more complicated piece of cloth then we appreciate.

Now I'm also confused .

 

[beenie]

To some extent I can see your point. But I also think that your idea of Western freedom is an illusion.

As a female, I don't feel like a free person in the west. My dress code, my behaviour, my life style is all dictated by cultural pressure. If I wear low cut tops and shorts and bikinis its because that's what's 'in'. Based on my analysis of society, I'd actually much rather if the norm was to wear more modest clothing and behave more modestly amongst each other. This would not be any more or less 'free' than what we experience in our West right now, it would just be another variety of cultural norms, customs and attitude.

As a female, I hate the obsession with sex and objectification of women in my culture. I know that a lot of women are sick of it. It goes too far. But I don't think that men have much of a problem with it for obvious reasons. But they rarely realise that our culture is still patriarchal (or care). Women are not free in our society, and we're rarely happy. No, most of us end up with cheating partners, end up being single mums who have to raise our kids and work to survive. It sucks. Freedom? That is such an illusion.

absolutely phenomenal. :bow:

 

[Songbird]

I haven't read all the comments here, and I'm not Muslim, so I come from a non-authoritative position in this thread. But women's issues strike a chord with me, and I have a few thoughts if you'll tolerate them.

First, the most common reason I've heard for women covering their heads is for modesty's sake, so I'll focus on this. Modesty is only related to sexuality. There is no other reason to dress "modestly", and this of course isn't unique to Islam. I have a rich and varied background in fundamentalist Christianity where the fetishism of virginity equals that of the porn industry. (I wrote a paper for school on how Christian sects and the porn biz both fetishize virginity.) The message we love to constantly send our girls is that their worth is in their sexuality. Not their talents. Not who they are.

This is not what we teach boys, though. We rather shrug our shoulders and tell them to be careful. The problems is that these boys are having sex with these girls. And the girls suffer the social stigma, but the boys don't. You can't teach one part of society one thing and another a different thing and expect good results. Islam seems to be similar to my outsider view.

Next, whether one religion or culture values a segment of society is connected to autonomy, self-determination, and freedom. One way social class is easily identified is when a segment of society is required to do something that another segment isn't. There is a difference between a woman freely choosing to cover her head or not, and her being required to at the cost of legal or social consequences.

Last, social class is often not apparent to the class on top. I read somewhere that the highest echelons of society don't need to take into consideration the concerns of the subordinated classes, don't need empathy, don't need to understand the needs of the lower classes. But to survive, the subordinated classes need to understand the top class. And the subordinated classes may not move with freedom without severe consequences like the ruling class may. I'll translate this into what I see of some cultures. Men may have affairs, vote, go to school, dress any way they see fit, work, drive cars, etc. Women are restricted by law, social custom, and religious prohibition to varying degrees in different countries in many of those areas.

That's it for now. Got children to feed, papers to write, and global domination plans to finish.

 

[Songbird]

To some extent I can see your point. But I also think that your idea of Western freedom is an illusion.

As a female, I don't feel like a free person in the west. My dress code, my behaviour, my life style is all dictated by cultural pressure. If I wear low cut tops and shorts and bikinis its because that's what's 'in'. Based on my analysis of society, I'd actually much rather if the norm was to wear more modest clothing and behave more modestly amongst each other. This would not be any more or less 'free' than what we experience in our West right now, it would just be another variety of cultural norms, customs and attitude.

As a female, I hate the obsession with sex and objectification of women in my culture. I know that a lot of women are sick of it. It goes too far. But I don't think that men have much of a problem with it for obvious reasons. But they rarely realise that our culture is still patriarchal (or care). Women are not free in our society, and we're rarely happy. No, most of us end up with cheating partners, end up being single mums who have to raise our kids and work to survive. It sucks. Freedom? That is such an illusion.

Actually, there are many studies that report women have as many affairs as men do. It's hard to determine, given the inherent secrecy (to quote one of the studies). Here are just two Google results:

Think men are the unfaithful sex? A study shows WOMEN are the biggest cheats - they're just better at lying about it | Mail Online

Infidelity Statistics

And I don't feel pressure to dress the way those around me dress. It may be how I was raised - my mom is a very granola, creative person who encouraged all her kids to express ourselves. It might also be where I live. We have to dress warmly for much of the year.

 

[outhouse]

To some extent I can see your point. But I also think that your idea of Western freedom is an illusion.

As a female, I don't feel like a free person in the west. My dress code, my behaviour, my life style is all dictated by cultural pressure. If I wear low cut tops and shorts and bikinis its because that's what's 'in'. Based on my analysis of society, I'd actually much rather if the norm was to wear more modest clothing and behave more modestly amongst each other. This would not be any more or less 'free' than what we experience in our West right now, it would just be another variety of cultural norms, customs and attitude.

As a female, I hate the obsession with sex and objectification of women in my culture. I know that a lot of women are sick of it. It goes too far. But I don't think that men have much of a problem with it for obvious reasons. But they rarely realise that our culture is still patriarchal (or care). Women are not free in our society, and we're rarely happy. No, most of us end up with cheating partners, end up being single mums who have to raise our kids and work to survive. It sucks. Freedom? That is such an illusion.

I understand social barriers and the cultural differences between the sexes as it applys to the dress code.

let me tell you this, women fought for the right to be free and have freedom of choice. You have that freedom these oppresed women do not have.

you may be tied to a cultural dress code but your not forced to it, or be beat and or killed because on a certain day you freely choose to do what you want with the freedom you have.

You have brought in seperate issues that does not belong here, by doing so it is very close to you saying women should all be forced to dress modestly and those that want to express themselves cannot because of how it effects the less desirable.

I know what your trying to say but it comes down to in the end freedom and the lack of it.

if you dont have freedom you are oppressed

 

[Badran]

I hope that when some people here in this thread are saying things like "those women", they aren't referring to Muslim women, but rather certain muslim women who happen to have oppressive families, or were raised in oppressive families. Since, aside from a couple of Muslim countries (like Saudi Arabia & Afghanistan), women aren't forced to wear anything.

Muslim women don't get beat or "killed" in order to dress a certain way.

 

[outhouse]

I hope that when some people here in this thread are saying things like "those women", they aren't referring to Muslim women, but rather certain muslim women who happen to have oppressive families, or were raised in oppressive families. Since, aside from a couple of Muslim countries (like Saudi Arabia & Afghanistan), women aren't forced to wear anything.

Muslim women don't get beat or "killed" in order to dress a certain way.

so what your saying is women are not murdered for blasphemy?

I understand in civilized muslim country's things are different from the barbaric ones. Even in a civilized country the oppressed women who by choice would like to not wear a scarf would still face some sort of punishment. It is upon you to show how little or extreme that punishment is.

Women in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Honor killings
An honor killing or honour killing[69] (also called a customary killing) is the murder of a family or clan member by one or more fellow (mostly male) family members, in which the perpetrators (and potentially the wider community) believe the victim to have brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community. The Quran does not mention honor killings, and many Muslim scholars and commentators say that honor killings are a cultural practice which is neither exclusive to, nor universal within, the Islamic world.[70] According to law professor Noah Feldman in the New York Times, Islam "condemns the vigilante-style honor killings that still occur in some Middle Eastern countries."

 

[beenie]

did you bother to read Badran's post thoroughly or are you full of "knowledge" that you don't even bother? either you wish to learn or you're just out to spew whatever nonsense you keep posting over and over.

Badran and every Muslim on RF acknowledges and condemns those who oppress, punish, and kill women for not adhering to a dress code. yes, it happens. yes, it's abhorrent and we're just as disgusted by it as you are. but they are in the minority. I don't know a single Muslim who supports the government carrying out punishments for women not wearing certain clothing.

you admitted yourself that these honor killings are not mentioned in the Qur'an...this means that they are indeed CULTURAL and nit religious. honor killings were going on way before Islam came along, and they too are wrong in every sense.

if a woman is murdered for blasphemy, it's wrong also.

what is your point?

 

[Badran]

so what your saying is women are not murdered for blasphemy?

Not sure what blasphemy's got to do with this, but anyway that very unfortunate and unjust killing you just mentioned, isn't related to women. Or in other words whoever would kill a woman for blasphemy would kill a man for it too, and in both cases its despicable. This isn't something oriented, or specific to women, and the problems with it are a totally different topic.

I understand in civilized muslim country's things are different from the barbaric ones. Even in a civilized country the oppressed women who by choice would like to not wear a scarf would still face some sort of punishment. It is upon you to show how little or extreme that punishment is.

Well its good that you know that things are different depending on the nature and conditions of the country. And that should tell you something. However, you're very wrong about the supposed punishment part in whats supposed to be civilized countries. The fact is, according to my experience, and i'm sure its the same experience that a lot of other muslims have, most women are not either forced or punished to wear anything by Muslim men or governments. In some individual cases like i said, and some families, they might force or extremely pressure their daughter onto wearing it. In general though, in my country for example, lots of muslim women wear it, and lots of others don't, both by their own choices.

Some women might face the same kind of pressure that women face all over the world, and that is to meet societies standards, but she is not forced on it, just pressured by the fact that this is the norm. And like i said, in my country for example, a huge number of women in all ages do not wear hijab. So clearly they do have a choice. And lots of others wear it completely out of a religious desire, totally free from any external factors.

Women in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Honor killings
An honor killing or honour killing[69] (also called a customary killing) is the murder of a family or clan member by one or more fellow (mostly male) family members, in which the perpetrators (and potentially the wider community) believe the victim to have brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community. The Quran does not mention honor killings, and many Muslim scholars and commentators say that honor killings are a cultural practice which is neither exclusive to, nor universal within, the Islamic world.[70] According to law professor Noah Feldman in the New York Times, Islam "condemns the vigilante-style honor killings that still occur in some Middle Eastern countries."

I'm not sure what honor killing has got to do with what i said either.

And Like ssainhu said these acts are condemned, and are performed by a minority of Muslims.