How can you justify torturing someone forever?

[sojourner]

indeed but in the case of real life some people dont come home, the refuse to the parable doesnt imply an unlimited amount of time, your implying it does would you like me to quote you some scriptures in context?

The father waited until the son came home. Period. How much clearer does it need to be? In fact, the Bible doesn't give a "time limit" on grace. I don't need you to quote Bible verses. 17 hours of Biblical coursework and I have all the "context" I need.

How much time is enough? When do you think God should "give up" on us?

 

[sojourner]

yeah but you dont have to be responsible according to your view, I mean its not something that neccessary, the paedohile murder can walk into heaven smiling without ever recanting, without ever recieving any judgement, hey whats ultiamtely stopping me, from butchering hundreds of people? to you its nothing, to you there is no cost for misdeeds, heck there doesnt even have to be a recant.

I didn't say repentence was unnecessary. But repentance necessarily follows the realization that one needs to come home. Therefore, one would have repented before actually returning home, so by the time one walks through the gates, one is, by definition, repentant.

btw where will these people be held in the afterlife before they choose God?

Not sure I understand what you mean. One is either in God's presence, or not. These aren't places. They're states of being.

 

[sojourner]

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

—Matthew 5:22

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

—2 Thessalonians 1:9

And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

—Revelation 20:9-15

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

—Daniel 12:2

i see? so what have you to say to these... few bible verses about hell

You're proof-texting. There are more than a few texts that spell out plainly God's unconditional love for us, God's unmitigated forebearance, and God's overwhelming mercy shown to the sinner. In fact, the overall thrust of the Bible is the story of God's search for humanity, in order to reconcile us to God. I'm not going to get into a scriptural slug-fest with you. It's unproductive.

 

[Raithie]

your assuming, you have no idea if anything can compare to an eternal suffering in hell, and just because you dont know it doesnt mean its not possible, you are just on the wrong end of sin to concieve its horror.

I'm not assuming. You can't lengthen an eternity of suffering and torture. The only way to worsen it would be to increase the pain - and from the description of Hell by the Bible, that seems pretty difficult.
So, I'm going to be tortured for eternity, all because I'm the way God designed me and because I doubt his existence? And regardless of the good things that I do, I'm still condemned? And you still call you God just... Does that mean Gandhi is going to Hell, too?
"at the wrong end of sin"... wow. So in the eyes of God, I'm a horrible person and deserve nothing but torture all because I don't follow the masses and realise the human potential for imaginative tales, and hence make up my own decision based on rationality and objectivity. Everything good I have done in my life is nulled by sheer disbelief. How in that just?
I guess that also applies to people who were born into other religions, ie. Hinduism. I guess they're all roasting in Hell too? As well as cave men, Romans (before christianity) native Americans, people who haven't heard of religion and the people of the other thousands of religions and Gods. All burning away. Nice.

how do you know? you seem to think your the best for this situation and I wonder why? again this is a misunderstand of the horror of sin and we have covered the potential of sin and didnt you concede that point. again like I said he created them so they could choose so that they could live out their destiny the way they saw fit, he gave them the right to hold their destiny in their hands and make a choice, if he refused to create them he would deny them that choice, and ultimatley made them meaningless.

How do I know what?
I am referring here, to "Gods" actions, not any human beings.
I'm simply comparing the hideous, horrific, vicious, revengeful, spiteful, unchristian, ungodly, unforgiving nature of "Gods" punishment of his own creation. This punishment is probably one of the greatest of all proofs for the non existance of the biblical "supreme, benevolent being". A revengful Christian God is an oxymoron.

ok so again an unrepentant sinner vs an unrepentant one, some who has admitted they done wrong against someone who doesnt. because ultimately in the eyes of God no one is good because we have all sinned the point is that can we admitt it and make a change.

You're equating torching a school on fire with not believing in God. You're also leaving out that God supposedly created the unbeliever and his cynical mindset.
Why would God be so offended by humans doubting his existence anyway? How does it possibly qualify as a crime, and how does it possibly justify eternal torture?

firstly no if he made us incapable of sin he would have made us his puppets, unable to go against him thats supression not freedom. if you are incapable of thinking for yourself that makes you a puppet, and that it what you are suggesting, to think for yourself you must be capable of disagreeing, in this scenario you arnt.

Yes, freewill gives us the right to sin - however, I am only objecting to the actions of God when we exercise that freewill. My point is that a Christian, loving God wouldn't impose horrific sanctions against those who exercise their freewill.

you have no idea if they would changed their mind or not do you? only an omniscent God would know that. also again you assume that you know that the punishment doesnt suit the crime which you dont, your whole agruement is based on assumptions which doesnt seem to be based on the doctrine of sin at all.

Please explain to me how anything would be worth eternal torture.

erm its quite simple.... all statements of hell in the bible are told through parables or prophets, and because of that the concept of hell isnt as clear cut as other doctrines, so there is room for interpretation.

"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire"
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
“where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
"everlasting punishment"
"place of torment"
"everlasting fire"
"eternal damnation"

All said by Jesus in the new testament. How is that not "clear cut"?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

it would be justice if it suited the crime which it would against I dont personnaly accept that specific doctrine, but even so you do not understand the extent of the crime. or refuse either way..

Now you're just babbling.

J/K

But seriously, try again. You absolutely lost me explaining your response to me. How about this for a scenario....

If you're so sure non-Christians are going to Hell, then is Ghandi there and is the Dalai Lama on his way unless he "repents"?

 

[K.Venugopal]

...then is Ghandi there and is the Dalai Lama on his way unless he "repents"?

You've spelt the mighty man's name wrong. It is Gandhi. The Mahatma and the Lama would be in hell twice hot - heated by both the Christian God and the Islamic God!

 

[sojourner]

Does it bother anyone else here that some folks have tried to turn God's kingdom into a members only country club for the self-righteous?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You've spelt the mighty man's name wrong. It is Gandhi. The Mahatma and the Lama would be in hell twice hot - heated by both the Christian God and the Islamic God!

Hahaaa....DOH! My bad. Thanks for the correction.

And I forgot there are two anthropomorphic ego-projections that are out to punish those who don't acknowledge them the way they want.

Makes me wanna give them a Big Squishy Hug.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Does it bother anyone else here that some folks have tried to turn God's kingdom into a members only country club for the self-righteous?

It's what initially kept me from reconciling my Christian upbringing. So I understand why it would bug the heck out of anybody. Took me years before I could appreciate Christianity without feeling that knee-jerk gut instinct of revulsion because of "unrepentant sinners in hell" and the believers who are so cavalier about the guarantee of their own salvation.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

wel firstly he did make us perfect, we chose to be imprefect when we chose sin, also sin is an infinite crime, its like a tar or virus that enters you, it isnt just a one in a time act, it says with you.

But like I have said before (you did not give me an answer) If Christ is the only redemption. All do not have an equal chance to receive him. So lets just be honest. It is God who makes the choice for some to go to hell. If there is no behavioral difference between the one true faith and all the others religion why would anyone feel motivated to join the christian church.

People who or born into Christian families become Christian. People born into a Muslim family for the most part stays Muslim. God must predestine some to go to heaven because he gives them much greater odds to find him. Others see nothing but Christians that are in no way better then anybody of any other faith. They have the same divorce rate. Just as likely to be child molesters. In fact there are a greater proportion of Christians in American Jails then the population at large.

Also the only description that I have found of hell in the bible is from parables and apocalyptic literature. Its bad exegesis to draw literal interpretations of either type of literature.

Can you show me a description of hell that is not in the above mentioned types of biblical literature.

 

[SKB]

We sinners are torturing ourselves and others because of sin.
But God plains to save all of us from sin and bring all of us back to heaven eventually.

I heard you should not question God. However, to know him you must question him.
Those that question all things will find truth. Only then will you know what is good Godly and kind. Just like you will learn what is bad or wrong. You cannot give up sin if it is not questionable.

And if the things of God are strange and questionable, then maybe it has been rewritten by sinners so that it will be excepted by sinners.

Sinners think they are good and others are bad, instead of all people have the same value. So I could say I’m good and I’m going to heaven and you are going to hell.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

How is it possible to recognize an all-compassionate, all-forgiving being with an eternity of torture? Punishment for wrong doing is presumably done with the intent of expatiating one's "sins," yes? So exactly what can one do to warrant be punished forever? How can something which is all-compassionate and all-forgiving ever mete out punishment at all? The "caveat" that is commonly stated is that "one must ask for forgiveness." But are we seriously expecting a being to "welcome an eternity of torture" such that said being will NEVER ask for forgiveness?

Edit: And I'm pretty sure that "limited time offer on forgiveness" & "all forgiving, all compassionate" are mutually exclusive...

MTF

 

[tarasan]

Now you're just babbling.

J/K

But seriously, try again. You absolutely lost me explaining your response to me. How about this for a scenario....

If you're so sure non-Christians are going to Hell, then is Ghandi there and is the Dalai Lama on his way unless he "repents"?

are you saying that Gandi or the Dalai Lama are perfect?

 

[tarasan]

You're proof-texting. There are more than a few texts that spell out plainly God's unconditional love for us, God's unmitigated forebearance, and God's overwhelming mercy shown to the sinner. In fact, the overall thrust of the Bible is the story of God's search for humanity, in order to reconcile us to God. I'm not going to get into a scriptural slug-fest with you. It's unproductive.

arnt you doing eactly the same thing? state to me why these texts dont mean hell, if you have any other verses that specifically say there is none without you drastically reading into the text im all for it.

 

[.lava]

As I see it, torturing someone forever produces no good results. Torturing someone forever is the most evil thing imaginable. Nothing is worse than this. How do you reasonably justify torturing a being for all eternity? How do you reasonably justify the belief that a good god would do the most evil thing possible?

how do people keep doing things that hurt themselves? drinking alcohol for example, it kills brain cells. if you drink it, no problem but if someone force you to drink it to kill your brain cells then it is a problem

.

 

[tarasan]

Does it bother anyone else here that some folks have tried to turn God's kingdom into a members only country club for the self-righteous?

It bothers me that you have given up my religion to some pluralist, secular idea and arnt giving people the full message, your distorting the bible to make you feel good, but that isnt what the bible is for, its for the truth, whether you like it or not.

 

[McBell]

It bothers me that you have given up my religion to some pluralist, secular idea and arnt giving people the full message, your distorting the bible to make you feel good, but that isnt what the bible is for, its for the truth, whether you like it or not.

And how is it that your distortions are any better?
Or are you claiming to know what the "real" meanings are?

 

[839311]

how do people keep doing things that hurt themselves? drinking alcohol for example, it kills brain cells. if you drink it, no problem but if someone force you to drink it to kill your brain cells then it is a problem.

People don't like being tortured - whether it is being burned with oil or being forced to drink liquor.

People usually drink alcohol because they like it for whatever reasons. People don't like to be thrown into fire.

 

[.lava]

People don't like being tortured - whether it is being burned with oil or being forced to drink liquor.

People usually drink alcohol because they like it for whatever reasons. People don't like to be thrown into fire.

yes, of couse. but noone is forcing people go into fire. IMO there is fire, there is warning. i know that people want to be free and do what they want to do. but noone becomes free before becoming servants. sacrificing is equal having it all. sacrifice comes first though so that freedom means something

.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

arnt you doing eactly the same thing? state to me why these texts dont mean hell, if you have any other verses that specifically say there is none without you drastically reading into the text im all for it.

God created Hell. God loves us. God is all-forgiving. God refuses to interfere in our lives to stop us from going to Hell. Once we go to Hell we are condemned for eternity. Exactly how do you reconcile this?

Perhaps a [youtube]ZWdhDpW49Iw[/youtube]
video will make it clear?

MTF