How did Satan get to the garden of Eden?

[TheCup]

ok so your criteria is the bible.
by what criteria do you determine the bible is gods word?

feelings?

O-Yes, indeed, this line of communication is absolutely much, much better for me...............!

How is it for you……?

You ask me: “By what criteria do you determine the bible is gods word?”

I believe with all my heart...!


With Kind Regards from:
THE CUP

 

[waitasec]

O-Yes, indeed, this line of communication is absolutely much, much better for me...............!
How is it for you……?
You ask me: “By what criteria do you determine the bible is gods word?”
OK, here it comes----------I’ve really tried my best to seek out almost every twist and every little turn throughout life or ways of life most anyone can rightly choose to do life by and to also find a way to sort of ground myself into some form of personal belief system.

ok, have you ever questioned yourself why you approach a belief system in the way you do?

I know this is going to be extremely hard for most people here on these posting boards to believe nonetheless fully understand what I’m just about to say here; but, to be honest, and believe it or not, I have not always been the perfected kind of person you see here or might already believe me to be….HA..! HA…!
I had once spent very close to some 40 long and much more often seemingly endless self-destructive years as a very hardcore drug addict. [/FONT][/COLOR]

I first started out my life time of self destruction by using every kind and every form of narcotic based drugs, those I could get my hands on anyway, while also spending a long seemingly endless two year (sort-of) “life sentence” in a local state prison (here in the state I grow up in); and, at the same "self-destructive" collected age limit, of 13 years old, I then became strangely transformed into one of the absolute worst nightmares most all people back then could ever come face-to-face with in the dark, and even in their brightest of times.

At 14 years old, I became a cell block collection man as well as a hit-man, one could safely say.

I was paid good to go all around different blocks and with weapons in hand I would forcefully collect owed money to some of the cell block bulls, controlling the many cell block(s). Of course, this worked out fine by supporting my drug intake on a daily basis.

I have truly hurt many, many people back then, people much, much bigger than myself, at the time. Frankly, all people in the prison knew I was extremely dangerous to even be around, and unstable in all of my ways.

This was mostly because I had absolutely no emotional feelings, any feelings concerning good or bad I mean. I also had no known personal fears over being killed or even coming face-to-face with death itself, not at all. Actually, I was good at what I was trained to do, by some of the very best bad guys currently in prison during the early 60’s…!

i can see why, as you "had absolutely no emotional feelings, any feelings concerning good or bad..."

In fact, death to me, back then, would have been a very good way for me to break out of this so-called madcap world and escape all of the constant mind monsters moving all about, deep within my head, day and night; I was never allowed to forget I was innocently sent to a state prison for no other reason than just being in the wrong place at the absolute worst and wrong time. Although I was there, I really did not do the actual crime, not at all…!

I knew the whole time I was in prison I was not guilty of any real hard crime, not the one I was directly accused of by the state.

However, being quite young and mostly always absolutely stupid,

i wouldn't be overstating if i say most are when they're young

and also completely without any parents to back me up and/or there to morally support me while growing up, I believe the judge on the other hand felt it would be to the best interest of the people and quite absolutely advisable for all concerned to actually point the finger of guilt at me, since there was no one there to help preserve and defend my young innocence, like those other guilty teenagers, who had backing but truly did the crime; but, I was there just the same; however I did leave the place when I saw things were getting too far beyond the logical bounds of the laws.

rightly so, as you do own your culpability

I was only 13 at the time, my best friend, who was also there was just 15, then there were two other “unknown boys” who were 16 each, another “un-familiar boy” was 18, and the oldest boy was 19 ½ years old.

It’s truly a very Long story here, but truly speaking, the judge strangely decided to be quite easy and very kind on the counties Sheriffs two sons, who actually committed the crime. But, He was not so nice and kind to me.

in hindsight he was doing you a favor, right?

Most everyone in the court room that day turned and pointed a very harsh and sharp guilty finger right at the face of a hardened criminal, which turned out to be a 13 year old little boy, me.

Needless to say, it wasn’t long (while I attending my first year in prison) until I oddly discovered many different forms of strange Satan worship, and that way started out extremely good for me, all during those young stupid days of my extremely wasted little life.

There were plenty of wild times everywhere I went, and lots of girls around too, when I got out of prison some two years later. In fact, when I did get out I don’t believe the natural world I once knew was ready for what suddenly sprang forth out of the harsh womb of manmade evil (prison).

Of course, the drugs were to me much like someone freely taking and eating away all of the fruits growing from every tree, planted within the so-called more remodeled and more modernized Garden of Eden of the mid 60’s.

Oddly enough, I started out eating from the tree of the knowledge of evil (first...!).

Anyway------to make a very, very long story short here, I’ve been most everywhere on the entire planet earth, I have done almost everything and anything most any person can ever hope to do in a lifetime, that is things that was totally against any kind of Godly moral order.

I’ve always fought totally against any and all Godly ways, because I felt completely left out of Gods’ loving concerns, His widespread mercy for sinfully lost people, and also from His very endless forgiveness for the spiritually lost world, for many, many long years.

Most of the time, I even doubted there ever was such a manmade (made up) characteristic being called God, altogether, and for many long years.

I set out to prove to myself and to all I could the entire world that there is no such a being as a Godly Creator. So, then, I begin to search frantically all about, looking into the matter of God and I started personally researching into many different ideas of a true Godly Being, for many long years.

I was constantly seeking just one small little piece of very clear-cut physical evidence this God did not exist. You know what happened…? I did discover there is absolutely no physical evidence or one small piece of physical evidence that God does not exist, but I did find just one small piece of absolute tangible and absolute indisputably physical evidence that same God does indeed exist

I would just love to email or send you a full copy of my years of research and findings, or perhaps attach a copy to your personal website inbox, if I may; I really believe you will suddenly become just as emotionally shocked as you may soon be surprised at my discoveries and findings…?

With Kind Regards from:
THE CUP

i do appreciate you sharing your story...i really do.

i can see how believing in something that is stronger than you helped you out of the destructive life you were living as an adolescent. my husband had a very similar upbringing and he pulled himself out of it without relying on that belief of something outside himself...he just grew up and realized how his actions impacted other people.

i am not arguing the point that god does or doesn't exist.

my point is, even if god did exist which is just as probable that he didn't, how do we determine the bible is gods word.

is just by feelings?

 

[TheCup]

ok, have you ever questioned yourself why you approach a belief system in the way you do?

i can see why, as you "had absolutely no emotional feelings, any feelings concerning good or bad..."

ANSWER...........
Yes, emotional feelings had left my body the very day the state I grow up in hung me out to dry and used me to prove some kind of controlling point; I believe that point was, Justice is totally and absolutely blinded to innocence; and, take a guess as to who sets right in the center of today’s justice system...? It is nothing but money making manmade false ethics and adverse laws. The Bible (or Gods' written Words) more often displays a better collective set of sound ethical laws, laws which would have been much more justified ( I do believe) in my best favors, I do believe.

i wouldn't be overstating if i say most are when they're young

Answer:
Indeed…! I agree…!


rightly so, as you do own your culpability

I was only 13 at the time, my best friend, who was also there was just 15, then there were two other “unknown boys” who were 16 each, another “un-familiar boy” was 18, and the oldest boy was 19 ½ years old.

in hindsight he was doing you a favor, right?

Answer:
In some very long ranged way or another, yes…!



i do appreciate you sharing your story...i really do.

Answer:
Thanks for understanding, frankly I never ever share that story with very many people at all…! But, it is very strange for me. But, I somehow felt, deep within (O-Look…..“I got feelings now….!”) I just had to share that with you; I can’t fully explain why, however---so please don’t ask me to explain it…/


i can see how believing in something that is stronger than you helped you out of the destructive life you were living as an adolescent. my husband had a very similar upbringing and he pulled himself out of it without relying on that belief of something outside himself...he just grew up and realized how his actions impacted other people.

Answer:
I do understand, some folks, perhaps not all people, do have various and/or many different paths to travel in life to find what is best for them. Most folks will find answers, perhaps somewhere along that long walkway in life; But all people must first look within themselves to find it, that is if they just care about themselves enough to stop and look real good deep inside at the heart; perhaps even deep down inside of themselves for they will find that special kind of logical and workable answer they need.

However, you stated your husband did pull himself out of all of his problems, without relying on that (or perhaps it is “a”…?) belief system (?) of something dwelling outside of himself (were you relating to the belief in the Bible or a Godly being…?

However, you also said: “he began to realize how his (outward) actions impacted other people.” I placed the extra words there in order to better understand what I am about to say.

In order for your husband to realize his impacts on others he did have to search deep within himself at some point to see what he was actually doing to others. What was causing his adverse actions to strangely surface into the exterior lifestyle of others was actually coming from deep within him. Logically speaking, your husband had to search “within” in order to discover the source of his exterior emotional dysfunctions, that is, in order to perhaps correct anything that was impacting others. This process always requires searching deep within one’s own heartfelt emotions and feelings.

I oddly discovered, there in the true heart, is exactly where God can be found, dwelling deep within each and every human being upon the entire planet earth. A lot of people hardly ever discover that mystery residing within their own selves. Your husband found the answers from deep within, and not from without…

i am not arguing the point that god does or doesn't exist.

my point is, even if god did exist which is just as probable that he didn't, how do we determine the bible is gods word.

Answer:
I really suppose there is no real cure-all or no definable method nether is there a very special kind of extremely unique process, leading anyone to suddenly discover the most perfected technique(s) for coming to personally believe the Bible is (in fact) the true and the most indisputable and authenticated inspired word of God.

This concern is something one just has to discover for themselves. I am sorry but I have no real workable answers there. It is something you or others must best reason upon and determine for self.

However, as for myself, and also after personally experiencing and personally witnessing a very uniquely inspired visitation, directly from a Godly type source, mostly in the form of a very real vision.

Furthermore, and also, after personally experiencing many, many different kinds of roads and byways in life, always seeking and searching to one day discover the number one absolute indisputable answer needed, needed for authenticating the widespread mystery associated with that so-called “written word,” more normally called, The Holy Bible.

I come to understand the Bible I have today is really the one and only written source book suited well enough to shad logical light of the mystery of a living God. There is no other text on the surface of the planet that can offer us any better results than the Bible.

I found, after going through all other religious text around the planet, the Holy Bible is the one and only source book that can truly work by spiritually inserting a good and more widely believable (and widely acceptable) set of common living conditions, set up to help keep the thinking of mankind from thinking of newer ways completely destroying all life on the planet today…!


is just by feelings?

Yes, it is a personal thing with each and every person…/

Blessings and Kind Regards from:]

THE CUP

 

[Thief]

This is a key comment that completely changes the persepective of God as a singular all knowing/omnipotent being.

Singular?...perhaps. I suspect His presence is a bit more complex than ours.
All knowing?....as in understanding His handiwork?....yeah.
All powerful?...yeah again....He is Almighty.

But to assume He is reading your mind is false.

You're in there by yourself...aren't you?
Don't hear any disembodied Voices....do you?
No one twisting your arm...is there?

Pretty much on your own?....maybe.

 

[TheCup]

Oryonder:

You are never ever all alone. God is always with you, even until the end of the world...I believe I have heard that saying somewhere, what do you think...?

BLESSINGS AND REGARDS FROM:

THE CUP

 

[TheCup]

I think that perhaps the point of existence is to come to understand love and compassion for others. This is certainly what Jesus was trying to get across IMO.

(Do unto others, do not judge. and so on the second rule was that humans should not claim to speak for God)

These seem like simple rules but they are much deeper than it seems on the surface and give a method for humans to coexist in the best way possible.

Unfortunately these two simple rules are the ones most often broken.

Every time I turn around some one is claiming: "do this or don’t do that because God says so" and on this basis trying to get the state to force their beliefs on others.

There is a difference between having a belief, and forcing that belief on others. (this is encompased in "do unto others" and other of Jesus teachings) "take the log out of your own eye" .. the adulterous woman "let ye without sin cast the first stone" .. and so on.

Abortion, Pornography, Drinking, Covering your face (women), Driving a Car (women), Prostitution are a few examples of religious folks claiming to know what God's will and on this basis getting the state to force these beliefs on others.

Historically, this was the basis for torture, persecution, and killing of millions of people over the years "in the name of God".

What I get, from looking around in the universe that I can see is that the above two principles, if followed and combined with some semblance of love of humanity, would make the world a better place.

I noticed that you did not speak to the idea that humans were created intentionally to disobey God's will. What think ye of that ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Oryonder:
I believe you have a very good logical hold on most all of the basic issues you’ve posted here, in the particular post; so, as much as I see from your replies, apparently I have little need to say much more on any other subject matter here much at all; however, you were concerned as to the following, and perhaps I can say what God has revealed to me throughout the years on that matter:

YOU SAID:
"I noticed that you did not speak to the idea that humans were created intentionally to disobey God's will. What think ye of that ?"

ANSWER:
As much as I've come to understand through the guidance of the Spirit, concerning that particular issue at hand, I discovered God had put together a most massive Master Creative Operation, one to specifically produce just the right kind of self acknowledging source He needed from the start, and a source perfectly suited and made just right as to supply Him exactly what He has always sought, out of the physical existence of the entire human race.

One particular aspect of that great "Master Creative Process" was to set up all of the operations needed for fully unfolding the human experience on planet earth, but to do in a very certain and a very particular way as to best develop (mentally) and to best unfold (spiritually) the right kind of human development for the best returns God had always expected to unfold out of mankind, and from deep within the very start of physical creation on earth itself.

Throughout the many countless generations of human being's, coming and going all around our home world, God felt it was necessary not to reveal all of the dynamic things of His plans to human life until the time is right to do so, and only God can know that particular time of events.

If Mankind had come to know and full any kind of creative understandings into the "semi-hidden" processes God had long planed to unfold, from the very foundation of the world, the entire human race would be well prepared to expect what was to unfold next on Gods' time table of creative events.

Therefore, mankind would hardly strive to comply himself to very much the Godly prearranged schedules and coming events planned for human actions and interactions with the divine parts of Gods' plans to forgive the lost world and save those willing to accept His loving forgiveness.

In many ways this action from mankind's part may well upset the creative plans God had first put together, at the start. Mankind had to actually be the part and also play the part of a creative being gone wrong and mankind must do so without any kind of predetermine what humanity's role truly is, within the great scheme of life existing among the stars.

This would also give God a perfect opportunity to show His loving forgiveness to those who come to see they truly need a God to save them. This creates a unified sense of love between mankind and God...Yes love plays a major role in the performance of human existence on planet earth and love is what binds God with mankind...!

You do understand many things already and I see you are not very far from the Kingdom of God...Oryonder:

GODS' BLESSINGS AND KIND REGARDS FROM:

THE CUP

 

[Oryonder]

Singular?...perhaps. I suspect His presence is a bit more complex than ours.
All knowing?....as in understanding His handiwork?....yeah.
All powerful?...yeah again....He is Almighty.

But to assume He is reading your mind is false.

You're in there by yourself...aren't you?
Don't hear any disembodied Voices....do you?
No one twisting your arm...is there?

Pretty much on your own?....maybe.

If God understood his handiwork "all knowing" then clearly God would know that his creations would fall prior to the fall.

Agreed ?

 

[Oryonder]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Oryonder:
I believe you have a very good logical hold on most all of the basic issues you’ve posted here, in the particular post; so, as much as I see from your replies, apparently I have little need to say much more on any other subject matter here much at all; however, you were concerned as to the following, and perhaps I can say what God has revealed to me throughout the years on that matter:

YOU SAID:
"I noticed that you did not speak to the idea that humans were created intentionally to disobey God's will. What think ye of that ?"

ANSWER:
As much as I've come to understand through the guidance of the Spirit, concerning that particular issue at hand, I discovered God had put together a most massive Master Creative Operation, one to specifically produce just the right kind of self acknowledging source He needed from the start, and a source perfectly suited and made just right as to supply Him exactly what He has always sought, out of the physical existence of the entire human race.

One particular aspect of that great "Master Creative Process" was to set up all of the operations needed for fully unfolding the human experience on planet earth, but to do in a very certain and a very particular way as to best develop (mentally) and to best unfold (spiritually) the right kind of human development for the best returns God had always expected to unfold out of mankind, and from deep within the very start of physical creation on earth itself.

Throughout the many countless generations of human being's, coming and going all around our home world, God felt it was necessary not to reveal all of the dynamic things of His plans to human life until the time is right to do so, and only God can know that particular time of events.

If Mankind had come to know and full any kind of creative understandings into the "semi-hidden" processes God had long planed to unfold, from the very foundation of the world, the entire human race would be well prepared to expect what was to unfold next on Gods' time table of creative events.

Therefore, mankind would hardly strive to comply himself to very much the Godly prearranged schedules and coming events planned for human actions and interactions with the divine parts of Gods' plans to forgive the lost world and save those willing to accept His loving forgiveness.

In many ways this action from mankind's part may well upset the creative plans God had first put together, at the start. Mankind had to actually be the part and also play the part of a creative being gone wrong and mankind must do so without any kind of predetermine what humanity's role truly is, within the great scheme of life existing among the stars.

This would also give God a perfect opportunity to show His loving forgiveness to those who come to see they truly need a God to save them. This creates a unified sense of love between mankind and God...Yes love plays a major role in the performance of human existence on planet earth and love is what binds God with mankind...!

You do understand many things already and I see you are not very far from the Kingdom of God...Oryonder:

GODS' BLESSINGS AND KIND REGARDS FROM:

THE CUP

Well .. It would please me if your intuition is correct.

Most of the words of Jesus given in the NT embody the principles given in my previous post.

Unfortunately .. the OT does not seem to share the same theme other than in the 10 commands and the laws which mostly came from Hammurabi's code as far as I can tell. Similar ideas were adopted by many other cultures at the time such as the Hittites.

The NT .. especially Pauline writings .. conflict in many ways with the message of Christ. (In particular "speaking for God" and salvation by faith alone)

I do believe that some of the Bible is inspired. "Some" being the important word.

That which I believe is inspired is embodied in the principles given in my previous post. It is when humanity, and the Bible, wanders away from these principles that trouble starts.

 

[4Life]

The word satan in Hebrew means the opposer, it can be anyone or anything. The woman saw the snake in the tree which drew her attention...using the snake the opposer convinced her to eat of the tree and she gave to her husband as well.

All is tested, the teacher wants the student to pass, the person who ties a rope wants it to hold. The teacher gives a test, the man with the rope first cheks to make sure the rope will hold before he trusts it. The woman failed and her husband went along and didn't object and did the same.

 

[4Life]

Well .. It would please me if your intuition is correct.

Most of the words of Jesus given in the NT embody the principles given in my previous post.

Unfortunately .. the OT does not seem to share the same theme other than in the 10 commands and the laws which mostly came from Hammurabi's code as far as I can tell. Similar ideas were adopted by many other cultures at the time such as the Hittites.

The NT .. especially Pauline writings .. conflict in many ways with the message of Christ. (In particular "speaking for God" and salvation by faith alone)

I do believe that some of the Bible is inspired. "Some" being the important word.

That which I believe is inspired is embodied in the principles given in my previous post. It is when humanity, and the Bible, wanders away from these principles that trouble starts.

There is no OT or NT....again that is a Modern Christianity concept to spead the lie.
There is ONLY one set of scripture, The first 5 books of the Law combined with the oral Law.

EVERYTHING else is commentary on those books. Paul did not write against the Law, he lived by the Law. People twisted his teachings because they didn't understand the Law to begin with. Once you study Judaism you will see what he was really teaching.

Even Poor Muhammed tried to explain that his quotes were meant to be used with the books already in place in hopes of clarifying this, but true to human nature they twisted that out of context as well....try reading the Quran from the back chapters first....very inspiring.

Islam created Muhammed as a demi-god too, not on purpose but it's still a pity. Arabs concider smaller shorter writings less important. The people at first did not know Muhammed was quoting from an Angel, so they would grab a paper ASAP and try and write down what he said (earlier shorter writings) after the people realized what was going on they followed Muhammed around with paper and pen at the ready...making the longer writings. By putting the book together backwards Arabs ruined what Muhammed tried so hard to express. At every turn Muhammed is quoted as saying that his quotes were to go ALONG with the books already written and to NOT use it as stand alone book.

The prophet you can't speak against is the Holy Spirit, which matches Jesus teachings... It wasn't Muhammed, who refers to THAT prophet as pure magic. You only understand that if you read the earlier writings first. In the end...they are all INSPIRED books, but there is only as always the scritures that were given by HaShem on the Holy mountian. Any book, any teaching, any prophet that teaches something different than those original books is a lie.

Islam tossed away the very books they were told to keep, and Modern Christianity is so far in left field it's sad...they think everything in the King James Bible is scripture. For those who believe their ancesters are flies or came back as cows...and or prays to idols.... well...no comment, it isn't worth my time.

 

[Thief]

If God understood his handiwork "all knowing" then clearly God would know that his creations would fall prior to the fall.

Agreed ?

Nay.
He would need to invade the thought and feeling.
This would negate the creation of an individual body.

You become unique because your thoughts and feelings are your own.

The handiwork done in the garden would need a proving.....so.....
'partake and you die'...They did partake.

Freewill requires a stand back and see what happens.
If the alterations had failed, Man would simply have continued as the animal he was made to be...Day Six.

 

[Oryonder]

There is no OT or NT....again that is a Modern Christianity concept to spead the lie.
There is ONLY one set of scripture, The first 5 books of the Law combined with the oral Law.

EVERYTHING else is commentary on those books. Paul did not write against the Law, he lived by the Law. People twisted his teachings because they didn't understand the Law to begin with. Once you study Judaism you will see what he was really teaching.

Even Poor Muhammed tried to explain that his quotes were meant to be used with the books already in place in hopes of clarifying this, but true to human nature they twisted that out of context as well....try reading the Quran from the back chapters first....very inspiring.

Islam created Muhammed as a demi-god too, not on purpose but it's still a pity. Arabs concider smaller shorter writings less important. The people at first did not know Muhammed was quoting from an Angel, so they would grab a paper ASAP and try and write down what he said (earlier shorter writings) after the people realized what was going on they followed Muhammed around with paper and pen at the ready...making the longer writings. By putting the book together backwards Arabs ruined what Muhammed tried so hard to express. At every turn Muhammed is quoted as saying that his quotes were to go ALONG with the books already written and to NOT use it as stand alone book.

The prophet you can't speak against is the Holy Spirit, which matches Jesus teachings... It wasn't Muhammed, who refers to THAT prophet as pure magic. You only understand that if you read the earlier writings first. In the end...they are all INSPIRED books, but there is only as always the scritures that were given by HaShem on the Holy mountian. Any book, any teaching, any prophet that teaches something different than those original books is a lie.

Islam tossed away the very books they were told to keep, and Modern Christianity is so far in left field it's sad...they think everything in the King James Bible is scripture. For those who believe their ancesters are flies or came back as cows...and or prays to idols.... well...no comment, it isn't worth my time.

Interesting commentary.

Who is the "holy spirit prophet" you speak of ?

The Pauline writings stress not the law but salvation by faith alone. So much so that James, brother of Jesus and leader of the Church of Jerusalem, had to speak out against this doctrine. (See James 2) In this chapter he states that faith without works is dead no less than 3 times.

Jesus also stresses works and not faith (at least in the Gospel of Matt).

As for the OT law .. There is a great difference between the God of the OT and the teachings of Jesus/ God of the NT.

As for the first 5 books, while inspiring, they are hardly inspired.

Genesis is a plagerism of Sumerian creation myths. If you want to realy understand the roots of Judaism that is where one much start.

Adamu were the first the beings created out of Clay by Enlil and the other Gods. The flood, the Ark .. its all in there.

Enlil =Ellil = El. Go read Genesis and see what God is named in the first creation Story. "EL"

Go read Psalm 82 and study what Scholars have to say about that and you will find that "EL" is the name of the Creator .. The Father, and so on according to recent Hebrew Scholarship.
http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_144.pdf

The ideas in the the Journal article above are backed up by Elijah. Elijah tells us that he was the only prophet in all Israel .. 450 to Baal and 400 to Asherah.

The people of Moses and his own Brother certainly did not think much of Moses's God. Moses leaves for a couple of weeks and Aaron makes an idol (Golden Calf) to El/Asherah for the people to worship (their real God .. the God of Abraham)

Moses's new God obviously did not make much of an impact on these people. (Certianly there was no miracles or parting of the Red Sea as the People would not have abandoned the God of Moses so easily)

Then when Moses returns .. 3000 men take sides against his God.

Now of these people had really witnessed a "real God" doing real miracles .. no way they would have gone against Moses.

Moses was a military leader .. the story probably has some basis in fact. As any good Military leader he put dissent down quickly. He has assassins go out and kill the 3000 rebels.

The real story is likely that these people chose sides against Moses .. not God.

Editors of the Bible in Persian times attributed the downfall of the Israelites to displeasing a God. The Persians were Zoroastrian, monotheistic, and against human sacrifice.

Prior to the Persians the Israelites were polytheistic and sacrificed humans. (Yeah .. in the real version of the story Issac likely bit the dust).

Monotheism was adopted because the Persians were monotheistic and they were the power so this must be pleasing to God. The Persians also freed the Jews which was even further evidence that God was trying to tell the Jews something.

Isaiah talks about Cyrus the Great being "annointed by God"

That Modern Judaism parallels Zoroastrianism of the Persians in many ways is not suprising.

 

[outhouse]

The word satan in Hebrew means the opposer, it can be anyone or anything. The woman saw the snake in the tree which drew her attention...using the snake the opposer convinced her to eat of the tree and she gave to her husband as well.

All is tested, the teacher wants the student to pass, the person who ties a rope wants it to hold. The teacher gives a test, the man with the rope first cheks to make sure the rope will hold before he trusts it. The woman failed and her husband went along and didn't object and did the same.

it means adversary.


and it takes imagination to place the satan in the tree


if that is the symbolism the Israelites wanted they would have said satan. but they didnt.

this isnt fill in the blanks with imagination

 

[TheCup]

Well .. It would please me if your intuition is correct.

Most of the words of Jesus given in the NT embody the principles given in my previous post.

Unfortunately .. the OT does not seem to share the same theme other than in the 10 commands and the laws which mostly came from Hammurabi's code as far as I can tell. Similar ideas were adopted by many other cultures at the time such as the Hittites.

The NT .. especially Pauline writings .. conflict in many ways with the message of Christ. (In particular "speaking for God" and salvation by faith alone)

I do believe that some of the Bible is inspired. "Some" being the important word.

That which I believe is inspired is embodied in the principles given in my previous post. It is when humanity, and the Bible, wanders away from these principles that trouble starts.

I like what you had said, here.......it is very close to correct..at its best...!
"That which I believe is inspired is embodied in the principles given in my previous post. It is when humanity, and the Bible, wanders away from these principles that trouble starts."

Frankly, when people go to searching and looking towards mankind's long list of many different philosophy's from all around the world, and also looking to the many different styles of modern-day newly created Bible's, instead of sticking to one style of Biblical understanding, there is exactly where we get a massive amount of widspread confusion. Godly truth then takes a backrow seating to many different personal understanding of one misunderstood accounting of a Godly Being.

This is exactly what's wrong with today's religious and none-religious intellectual's.

That is exactly what we who know better is facing currently today...!


Kind Regards From:

THE CUP

 

[Oryonder]

Nay.
He would need to invade the thought and feeling.
This would negate the creation of an individual body.

"All Knowing" is "All knowing". The only way an all knowing God could not know all is if that God blocked knowledge from itself.

Now let us assume God did this, built some kind of radomizer chip that made each human different in a way that God was not privy to.

There are still some problems. At the very least God would have to know the strengths and weaknesses of humans in general. Do you not think God knows your strengths and weaknesses ?

Further .. keep in mind that prior to taking from the tree of knowledge Adam and Eve had zero knowledge of good and evil and God would have to know this.

If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of Evil this makes them innocent, and trusting of everyone which makes them extremely gullible.

God also made Sataniel .. the greatest deceiver ever.

The stage is now set:

We have two completely innocent and trusting humans with absolutely no knowledge that evil even exists in the ring with the greatest deceiver the world has ever known.

Who do you think is going to come out of this contest on top ?

God did not have to be God to figure out who would be the winner in this contest.

God knew in advance exactly what would happen.

 

[Thief]

"All Knowing" is "All knowing". The only way an all knowing God could not know all is if that God blocked knowledge from itself.

Now let us assume God did this, built some kind of radomizer chip that made each human different in a way that God was not privy to.

There are still some problems. At the very least God would have to know the strengths and weaknesses of humans in general. Do you not think God knows your strengths and weaknesses ?

Further .. keep in mind that prior to taking from the tree of knowledge Adam and Eve had zero knowledge of good and evil and God would have to know this.

If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of Evil this makes them innocent, and trusting of everyone which makes them extremely gullible.

God also made Sataniel .. the greatest deceiver ever.

The stage is now set:

We have two completely innocent and trusting humans with absolutely no knowledge that evil even exists in the ring with the greatest deceiver the world has ever known.

Who do you think is going to come out of this contest on top ?

God did not have to be God to figure out who would be the winner in this contest.

God knew in advance exactly what would happen.

Still hedging on the idea that your thoughts are not your own?
No sense of freewill?

It's not a matter of obedience.
Having altered the body and spirit of Man...Man was given a choice.

The choice was made....apparently, the alteration was successful.

Man is now a creature that will seek knowledge in spite of eminent death.

 

[Oryonder]

Still hedging on the idea that your thoughts are not your own?
No sense of freewill?

It's not a matter of obedience.
Having altered the body and spirit of Man...Man was given a choice.

The choice was made....apparently, the alteration was successful.

Man is now a creature that will seek knowledge in spite of eminent death.

My argument has nothing to do with whether or not Adam and Eve had their own thoughts.

Do you not think God knew the strengths and weaknesses of his creations ?

In this case that Adam and Even had no knowledge of Evil ?

 

[Thief]

My argument has nothing to do with whether or not Adam and Eve had their own thoughts.

Do you not think God knew the strengths and weaknesses of his creations ?

In this case that Adam and Even had no knowledge of Evil ?

Man was created as an animal...Day Six.
No law...no restrictions....no transgression....
But to say Man was devoid of misbehavior?
Was not Man already performing harm?

Chapter Two is a story of a chosen specimen....Adam.
An alteration was made....body and spirit.

Now ....at what point do you think Adam learn the difference between good and evil?

Was he brought into the garden already knowing?...apparently not.
Not much of a story...or change...if he did.

Do you think you can teach an animal the difference?
Or does a change of body seem a prerequisite?

Do you think we humans would be as we are now?...without the garden event?

 

[Oryonder]

Man was created as an animal...Day Six.
No law...no restrictions....no transgression....
But to say Man was devoid of misbehavior?
Was not Man already performing harm?

Chapter Two is a story of a chosen specimen....Adam.
An alteration was made....body and spirit.

Now ....at what point do you think Adam learn the difference between good and evil?

Was he brought into the garden already knowing?...apparently not.
Not much of a story...or change...if he did.

Do you think you can teach an animal the difference?
Or does a change of body seem a prerequisite?

Do you think we humans would be as we are now?...without the garden event?

According to the Bible Adam did not know good from evil until he partook of the tree of knowledge.

Why do you insist on avoiding the question ?

Do you think that God knew that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of Evil ?

 

[greentwiga]

Be careful about just making the scripture fit your notions. Take evil. The word means useless because it is broken. It is associated with covenants. Put Adam and Eve in proper context. Just for fun, let's look at what scientists say. Humans had just survived the younger Dryas where they lived as hunter-gatherers in family groups. Then mankind invented agriculture. The Bible even claims that Adam was the first farmer. Now, suddenly, humankind starts living in farming communities, with unrelated people. Now, for the first time, they need covenants. Thus Evil, covenant breaking enters the world for the first time. Marriage has also become a covenant in this new order and people also break it. The same Hebrew word is used for breaking the marriage covenant, but it is usually translated wicked. Now wheter or not there were people before Adam doesn't matter. Farming demands many social changes over Adam's original life, including covenant breaking (Evil)