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How does your faith rationalize god allowing the existence of evil, death, and suffering?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I don't understand .. this life is relatively short compared with eternity, so why is physical death bad?
Regards 'the problem of evil', this world is what it is ..

Yes, even according to the Bible the problem of evil is: this world is what it is > 2 Timothy 3:1-5; 2 Timothy 3:13. In these ' last days of badness on earth ' people would display that selfish distorted form of love which is in sharp contrast with the Bible's definition of godly love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.

Why is physical death bad ? It brought a final end to father Adam.
1 Corinthians 15:26 describes death as our enemy.
If Adam had never sinned Adam would still be alive on Earth today with the prospect to continue to live happy-and-healthy on a beautiful paradisical Earth forever and ever.
Life is short now because the 1,000-year governmental rulership by Christ Jesus has Not yet started. - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
During Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 21:4-5
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
Paul. May I ask you something simple?

Why are you so obsessed with Adam? How about all the animals. All life on earth. Everything has a beginning and an end. Birth and death if you may. Even stars do. Having all of this, why are you obsessed with Adam?

Thats because your theology has the concept of Original sin involving Adam and Jesus's redemption on the cross.Thats your theology. Why do you ask me?

Also in that case why dont you ask these?

1. Why did God create Adam to eat off the tree?
2. Why did God make the woman to entice Adam to eat?
3. Why did God make the tree in the first place?

DId he?
No I am not obsessed with this.
But this is where we share common ground, we both believe in Adam so by examining Adam we can determine a lot.
1. God created Adam with the intention to obey, god did not instruct Adam to do no such thing. As a parent would god wanted the best for Adam, but god wanted Adam to choose that for himself.
2. God made the woman with the intention of her being a compliment to Adam, and to help fulfill what god wanted for them. God had good plans and instructions for them, but what they chose ultimately was up to them.
3. As I have answered before he created the tree so that the they could exercise their free will. God would have wanted for them to see that God gave them everything and that everything was good, so in all honesty it should have been a no brainer to obey our heavenly father who has given us life.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
No I am not obsessed with this.
But this is where we share common ground, we both believe in Adam so by examining Adam we can determine a lot.
1. God created Adam with the intention to obey, god did not instruct Adam to do no such thing. As a parent would god wanted the best for Adam, but god wanted Adam to choose that for himself.
2. God made the woman with the intention of her being a compliment to Adam, and to help fulfill what god wanted for them. God had good plans and instructions for them, but what they chose ultimately was up to them.
3. As I have answered before he created the tree so that the u could exercise their free will. God would have wanted for them to see that God gave them everything and that everything was good, so in all honesty it should have been a no brainer to obey our heavenly father who has given us life.

So do you say that we both dont mutually believe animals?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
What kind of God makes two opposite genders, asks them not to eat from a tree that he deliberately puts right infront of them.
He either Let's the devil in or clearly is not omnipresent and has poor eye sight.
Then after that punishes the couple with death?
What kind of a twisted lunatics is he?

Wasn't the ' tree of life ' in front of Adam and Eve ?________
Only one tree out of all the trees on Earth was forbidden, and that was Not the ' tree of life ', but the one tree of knowledge of good and bad/evil.
The devil let himself turn himself into a devil and a Satan by his own wrong desire - James 1:13-15

Wasn't the couple educated that the forbidden tree would bring death ?_______- Genesis 2:17
They punished themselves with death because they knew the consequence in advance - You eat, you die.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So do you say that we both dont mutually believe animals?
Could you please restate the question?
I don't understand ' believe animals ' ?
I do believe mankind will once again have peaceful relationships with animal kind according to Isaiah 11:6-8; Isaiah 11:9, and as mentioned at Isaiah chapter 35.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar by remaining faithful under adverse conditions.
Job cursed the day he was born. Not cursing Job shows that Job was unwilling to call God out, though he actually kinda did. That God will kill people who rightly have valid complaints about mistreatment makes God out to be a monster. Also, Jesus was tempted with power over nature, authority, etc. Jesus didn't take the bait during the temptation, but also poofed up wine and food, encouraged comparisons to kingship, stilled storms, killed trees, etc. Satan can't tempt you unless he's accusing you of something you already have in your heart and were just trying to keep on the DL. Satan was not testing Job, he was testing God, and God didn't disappoint, even admitting Job had done no wrong and God was being a hateful prick.

No faith equals the strong pounding the weak. Its what atheism is.
What do you call the "saved" lording it over the "unsaved"? It's the same thing, just different labels.

He who has the biggest number wins.
Numbers dont' prove right or wrong, only facts do.

The beauty of Jesus is that he is about sacrifice for others and putting self behind others needs.
In some gospels, he doesn't sound too thrilled. In fact, he constantly runs from angry mobs and authority figures to survive. He only dies when there is no more option to run. His "help" only seems to serve "photo op" type events (weddings, sermons, etc). He talks big about keeping our religion quiet but is quite the attention hog, demanding parades and that people just drop what they're doing and serve him.

The Way is a good Way, but Jesus left a lot of room for improvement.

No one who died before Jesus died went to heaven - John 3:13
John doesn't know the stories in the bible, as both Elijah and Enoch get beamed up to heaven WITHOUT dying because they were so righteous.

In your mind being that Jews, christians, and muslims won't change their views, how do you think God should deal with us to bring peace to the earth since we won't change our ways?
Do what He's doing now: reveal His followers to be butt-kissing egotists and humble them while promoting the "other", the "outcast", etc.

Had adam not sinned they would have remained living but they didn't they died.
Elijah and Enoch didn't.

Why do we die?
Why are you fixated on it? Do you feel you were severely wronged by God for being born mortal? Take it up with God. Other people grasped mortality long ago. Your arrogance demands God should've made you immortal. He never said He would.

2. Satan then says in genesis 3:4 you certainly will not die. He challenged god, and called him a liar.
You are flat out ignoring that God Himself verifies the serpent's statements (you are so used to lying about Satan that you insist on putting him in this story when he just isn't) mere lines later. God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit NOT because it would bring death, but because He didn't want us to share His powers. That's it. It's right there in the text.

1.God gave Adam everything he needed and could possibly want.
It took God a long time just to figure out Adam needed another human as a mate.

If 'God' is not omnipotent, then it is not God.
Not all gods had to be omnipotent. We are influenced by "ideal forms", where a god must be the most awesome thing we can come up with (ignoring that many lack good imaginations). Gods just ususally had some sort of power over some aspect of creation that humans lacked.

If god created us with the intention of being tested with evil and created us to die, I want nothing to do with that. That does not reflect a god of love.
Any child you create is mortal. Do you love them less because they can never live forever?

Unlike Adam, we can sin by mistake, by accident, unintentionally.
Only willful sins are sins. Otherwise, they are mistakes or accidents. God judges motive, according to the bible.

3. As I have answered before he created the tree so that the they could exercise their free will. God would have wanted for them to see that God gave them everything and that everything was good, so in all honesty it should have been a no brainer to obey our heavenly father who has given us life.
If you leave a gun out in front of a kid to test their free will, it's not the fault of the kid it was picked up and you or the kid were shot ... it's YOUR fault.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
1. Why did God create Adam to eat off the tree?
2. Why did God make the woman to entice Adam to eat?
3. Why did God make the tree in the first place?
DId he?

Although not Paul, if I may take the liberty to reply.
1) We were created to eat, including fruit from fruit trees.
2) Eve was Not created to entice Adam. Eve was deceived by Satan - 1 Timothy 2:14 - Eve was created to be a helper to Adam - Genesis 2:18
3) The forbidden tree stood for the Law. Out of all the trees on Earth only one tree belonged to God. By saying do Not eat from His tree was as if God put up a no trespassing sign on it.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Elijah and Enoch were Not resurrected to heaven.

Elijah went ascending ( Not resurrecting ) in the windstorm to the heavens ( mid heavens were the birds fly ). Not the heaven of heavens but in the atmosphere.
Elijah was carried out of Elisha's sight. Elijah was simply transported by the wind from one place to another.
Elijah was still very much alive years later writing to the King of Judah- 2 Chronicles 21:12-14; 2 Chronicles 21:15

Enoch was taken Not to God's residence, but as God disposed of Moses' body that was the same with Enoch.
Hebrews 11:13 Enoch was as dead as the rest mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11 awaiting a future resurrection - Hebrews 11:39; Acts of the Apostles 24:15
That is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection......
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
It sucks that you cant understand an explanation. Really sucks.

At least you should have tried to understand and provide some sort of intellectual response. You come from your understanding of God, and expect your type of answer.

Theodicy

1. There is no easy answer

2. Are you willing to accept the answer

Why is there no easy answer?

God creates us, gives us free will, thus evil exists because we have free will. This evil comes behind us and we are tested so that if we live righteously we will go to heaven one day when we die - The average answer we get.

Then why should God create us at all? There is this God who sits outside our realm apparently according to many Islamic scholars and creates the universe for us to prove ourselves. Billions and billions of humans created to prove ourselves.

I don’t think so.

The problem with this subject is that honest exploration in the subject of theodicy is almost blasphemy, and you can be shunned. The biggest and most pertinent problem in this subject is we as individuals do not want to question the creation narrative given to us by our ancestors. We do not want to honestly question this idea that God created all good, Satan thing happened and we are all in this plight now, because we do not want to think that there could be much more to it. God has to be a supreme being outside our realm looking down upon us, that’s the problem.

Creation according to Islam as defined in the Quran is that God creates by will. Kun. This Kun is not like a divine being wades his wand and the universe came to exist. Kun is being part of creation itself.

There are many verses in the Quran that says “We made it happen”. E.g. We put a seal upon their hearts. That’s not the exact rendering of that. It means this has happened, that’s the Quranic language. That type of language is all over the Quran.

Why does suffering exist?

This is probably one of the most important questions, most difficult for religious proponents to answer. Why does an innocent child, never sinned, didn’t even have the time to think of sinning, suffer and die of cancer or a Tsunami? Is that the parent’s sin? No, sin is not inherited. Then why would a child suffer? The same goes to all humans.

How does a child come to this world with a disability? What did he do to receive such a dirty test? Is God that bad to test a human being with a disability? Or is that a test for everyone around him?

The Quran does not portray God as a being like Zeus. In fact its not God at all. God is the traditional English word with which we don’t have a choice but to refer to Allah. Allah means The Divinity. Al ilah. Like The Mother, she doesn’t need a name for you to know who your mom is. When you say the mother, you know. Thus Allah is not a name. It’s a description.

This concept of God is not one who sits far away and keeps looking at us like we are ants. He is part of this universe. Yes, it is a consciousness that’s within the whole creation. Now if you study ibn Arabis theory that’s akin to this you will see that he was called a heretic.

The problem with religions is that there is something called the mainstream, orthodoxy and heresy. Mainstream is generally controlled by the biggest sect. In the case of Islam, it’s the Sunnis. But they don’t realize that there are many more sects out there, and they believe they are Muslims too. Orthodoxy has Greek roots and basically means “correct belief”. Heresy in Greek simply means choice. So anyone who makes a choice to have a different view from the mainstream is a heretic. That’s why great minds like Avicenna were called heretics. So in short, anyone who makes a choice is a heretic and everyone who doesn’t make a choice and sticks to the mainstream is orthodox. This is the case with Christianity as well.

Thus it is a choice that one must make to understand this “Theodicy”.

Nature of God

Isnt it funny that you would see Muslims say that God is beyond understanding. Kufuwan, the word that means comparable in the chapter 112. There is nothing comparable, so you cant fathom God. Whats funny is that, after saying this, they say God is not part of creation, he is away from creation, outside creation etc.

If we cant ever think what God is like according to Surah Ikhlas, how could we describe him.

No! He cannot be understood. That’s what the Quran says.

But he is involved in creation. That’s what the Quran portrays vehemently. Every time the Quran says we made something happen. Kun fayakoon.

Shaithan

We have inherited Dogmas. One of them is always understanding Saithan as a being.

Shaithan means deviant. Allowing Shaithan to dwell in this universe is also allowing deviance. That is why we have meteorites landing on earth. Deviance, which is the way of the universe. If not for the ozone layer we will be smithereens. Why would there be a holocaust? How many children did hitler murder? Does God actually put us through such an atrocity to test us? How about the atomic bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Absurd.

Take a look at this verse.

67:5 - We have adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and We made it with projectiles against the devils; and We prepared for them the retribution of the blazing fire.


Can you see the word ‘devil’ up there? Its Shayatheeni, Shaythan. What is this projectiles against the devil? As if Devil is a being with flesh and bones and we throw stuff at him to hurt him or keep him away. That’s not what this verse means.

Its not projectiles. Its Rajm. Rajm means an offensive. A casting. A contending for superiority. Shayatheen is deviant. What does not follow the rules or normal course. Could easily mean foreign debris that enters the earths atmosphere, deviant. Azab means a torment. The ending of the verse says a torment of the blazing fire. Describes how the ozone layer takes care of deviant debris.


Thus Shaythan is not always a being. Thus God allowed deviance to live in creation. Which means people are deviant, nature itself can be deviant. Rebellious. Goes against normal laws. How could you explain the millions of children born with a disability while the parents or ancestors don’t have any? Medical mystery.



Creation


How come God took six Ayyams for creation? Why does the Quran need to say that it took six periods? That is to show that God does not create things like Dumbledore. It’s a process, a natural process. It took six epochs of time for the whole universe to come to existence the way we know it. And God was part of the creation and the act of creation. He does not get involved changing the course of nature. Because Shaithan or deviance exists.

Absolute eloquent text there. A++

:)
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
First off Jabar he disagrees with your responses, he is taking the god did not cause anything bad approach you guys say directly that God created us to test us.

I did see some little disagreement but for the most part he agrees with most of what i have said.

Even if i was in disagreement, i still found it very eloquent, that does not really mean i am in agreement with everything he has stated

I believe he thinks God created us to test us, i may be wrong.

My point was that it was well written and persuasive.


:)
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
First off Jabar he disagrees with your responses, he is taking the god did not cause anything bad approach you guys say directly that God created us to test us.

Btw, God did not cause anything bad, it is the humankind that causes it.

:)
 
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