• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How does your faith rationalize god allowing the existence of evil, death, and suffering?

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
What really needs to happen is you address this question:
Did the god of the Qur'an create Adam to die?

You mean, did Almighty God create us to die?
Why do you ask this question repeatedly? Why does it matter so much?

What I can tell you is that our sins make us die younger .. (ie. individual and collective sins of humanity)
I can also tell you that while on this earth, it is impossible to live forever. Quite obvious really .. plane or car crash, diseases etc.
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
Actually this is a very different type question.
Because this is the difference.
1. Did god give Adam the capability to
You mean, did Almighty God create us to die?
Why do you ask this question repeatedly? Why does it matter so much?

What I can tell you is that our sins make us die younger .. (ie. individual and collective sins of humanity)
Because it's important to know the god you serve.

So are you saying Allah gave Adam the capacity to live forever?
Or did Adam not have the capacity?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Actually this is a very different type question.
Because this is the difference.
1. Did god give Adam the capability to live forever according to the Qur'an or not?

Adam was a man. Human. His name basically means Human being. It could also have ancestry to the Hebrew word Adamah which means earth.

The Quran does not say anything to connote that Adam had the capability to live forever.
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
Adam was a man. Human. His name basically means Human being. It could also have ancestry to the Hebrew word Adamah which means earth.

The Quran does not say anything to connote that Adam had the capability to live forever.
That's my point.
1. If god created Adam with no immortality what was the purpose for that? God must have had a purpose.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
That's my point.
1. If god created Adam with no immortality what was the purpose for that? God must have had a purpose.

We are all born with a basic understanding of morals. As we grow up we get influenced to be better or worse. But there are some who are born without morals, maybe later influenced as well. Like a psychopath. Thats a debate on its own merit though I am no expert on that matter.

But according to the Quran, Adam was human. You asked about having the ability to live forever. Now you have changed it and you say THATS YOUR POINT, then you go onto immorality. I have a feeling that you are either trying to bring original sin into the Quran or trying to justify original sin through the Quran.

Thats my opinion, I could be wrong.
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
We are all born with a basic understanding of morals. As we grow up we get influenced to be better or worse. But there are some who are born without morals, maybe later influenced as well. Like a psychopath. Thats a debate on its own merit though I am no expert on that matter.

But according to the Quran, Adam was human. You asked about having the ability to live forever. Now you have changed it and you say THATS YOUR POINT, then you go onto immorality. I have a feeling that you are either trying to bring original sin into the Quran or trying to justify original sin through the Quran.

Thats my opinion, I could be wrong.
1. I have no desire to bring no teaching into the Qur'an.
2. It's theology. We have facts. Adam died. Why? We simply look at the facts and see if the "divine book" can answer that.

God either:
1. Created Adam with the capacity to live forever
2. Or god created Adam to die
3. If god created Adam to live forever why can't we? If he created Adam to die why? This is confronting a reality for both the bible and the Qur'an.
 
Last edited:

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Because it's important to know the god you serve.

So are you saying Allah gave Adam the capacity to live forever?
Or did Adam not have the capacity?
'the god' I serve?
Almighty God is the creator and sustainer of the universe. Please tell me how it changes how we should worship God knowing whether Adam, peace be with him, was given the capacity to live forever.
Clearly, Adam, peace be with him did NOT live forever (on this earth), and Almighty God knows all things .. God was aware that Adam was going to die when He created the universe whether Adam had the capacity to live forever or not!
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
'the god' I serve?
Almighty God is the creator and sustainer of the universe. Please tell me how it changes how we should worship God knowing whether Adam, peace be with him, was given the capacity to live forever.
Clearly, Adam, peace be with him did NOT live forever (on this earth), and Almighty God knows all things .. He was aware of this hwne He created the universe whether Adam had the capacity or not!
That's the problem
1. Either god created everything good and intended us to live a good eyernal life, but we chose a different course and we die because of our own sin.
2. The concept that we have to face is Adam died. Why? This is such an important question to me since god is a god of love. If god created us with the intention of being tested with evil and created us to die, I want nothing to do with that. That does not reflect a god of love.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
...., how do you think God should deal with us to bring peace to the earth since we won't change our ways?

Those who ' repent ' DO change their ways - 2 Peter 3:9

God will have Jesus take the action of Revelation 19:11; Revelation 19:14-16 to bring peace to the Earth.
The words from Jesus' mouth will execute the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4 - thus allowing for righteous people to inherit the Earth - Matthew 5:5; Proverbs 2:21-22; Psalms 92:7
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
1. I have no desire to bring no teaching into the Qur'an.
2. It's theology. We have facts. Adam died. Why? We simply look at the facts and see if the "divine book" can answer that.

God either:
1. Created Adam with the capacity to live forever
2. Or god created Adam to die
3. If god created Adam to live forever why can't we? If he created Adam to die why? This is confronting a reality for both the bible and the Qur'an.

You have understood God and creation wrong.
Plus you dont like explanations and exegesis's. Thus I refrain from quoting my older post again, and again.

Peace.
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
You have understood God and creation wrong.
Plus you dont like explanations and exegesis's. Thus I refrain from quoting my older post again, and again.

Peace.
It sucks that you can't answer such a simple question directly.
The fact is you know that according to the Qur'an Adam was meant to die. Just like most of the Muslim community accept that God created us to test us.
Either god created Adam to have a good life eternally
Or god created him to die and be tested.

Otherwise there is no other response in the Qur'an. Your other answer basically says we don't know.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
That's the problem
1. Either god created everything good and intended us to live a good eternal life, but we chose a different course and we die because of our own sin.
2. The concept that we have to face is Adam died. Why? This is such an important question to me since god is a god of love. If god created us with the intention of being tested with evil and created us to die, I want nothing to do with that. That does not reflect a god of love.

Yes, we die because we can Not stop sinning. If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Unlike Adam, we can sin by mistake, by accident, unintentionally.

What was the ' tested with evil ' for Adam ?
Didn't Adam have plenty of everything good ?
How many fruit trees on Earth ?
Out of all the trees on Earth only one tree belonged to God.
There was No hardship placed on Adam.
If you had a generous neighbor with many fruit trees and he said you can come over as often as you wish and have as much fruit as you want but Not from one particular tree,
would you say your generous neighbor was wrong or testing you with evil ?_______
We're all enticed by one's own desires - James 1:13-15

Adam was educated, forewarned, that if he ate he would die. The ' evil ' was: capital punishment for breaking God's Law.
Since, unlike us, Adam could only sin on purpose, intentionally, willfully that is what caused Adam to loose his healthy human perfection.
Father Adam then could only pass on to us what he then acquired. Acquired a nature leaning toward wrongdoing.
Since we are innocent of what Adam did, then, through Christ, God balanced the Scales of Justice for us so that we can be cleared from what Adam brought upon us.
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
Those who ' repent ' DO change their ways - 2 Peter 3:9

God will have Jesus take the action of Revelation 19:11; Revelation 19:14-16 to bring peace to the Earth.
The words from Jesus' mouth will execute the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4 - thus allowing for righteous people to inherit the Earth - Matthew 5:5; Proverbs 2:21-22; Psalms 92:7
I agree the whole point why I asked him that is because he condemns Yahweh or Jehovah for destroying nations, but there was a reason behind everything god did.
Now if he wishes bad on us why is he condemning god? Hypocrisy.
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
Yes, we die because we can Not stop sinning. If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Unlike Adam, we can sin by mistake, by accident, unintentionally.

What was the ' tested with evil ' for Adam ?
Didn't Adam have plenty of everything good ?
How many fruit trees on Earth ?
Out of all the trees on Earth only one tree belonged to God.
There was No hardship placed on Adam.
If you had a generous neighbor with many fruit trees and he said you can come over as often as you wish and have as much fruit as you want but Not from one particular tree,
would you say your generous neighbor was wrong or testing you with evil ?_______
We're all enticed by one's own desires - James 1:13-15

Adam was educated, forewarned, that if he ate he would die. The ' evil ' was: capital punishment for breaking God's Law.
Since, unlike us, Adam could only sin on purpose, intentionally, willfully that is what caused Adam to loose his healthy human perfection.
Father Adam then could only pass on to us what he then acquired. Acquired a nature leaning toward wrongdoing.
Since we are innocent of what Adam did, then, through Christ, God balanced the Scales of Justice for us so that we can be cleared from what Adam brought upon us.
Yes but muslims don't believe in original sin. Some refuse to answer very direct questions others admit that it was gods intention for Adam to die and be tested, as we are.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Adam was a man. Human. His name basically means Human being. It could also have ancestry to the Hebrew word Adamah which means earth.
The Quran does not say anything to connote that Adam had the capability to live forever.

Yes, Adam was created from the earth. And Adam ' returned ' to the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19
Both the angels and humans are created as ' mortals '. The immortal can Not die. They are death proof.
Adam was told he could live forever just as long as he did Not break God's Law.
Mortal Adam died because he deliberately chose to break God's Law.
So, perfect sinless humankind would Not die due to accidents, etc. but only because of breaking God's Law.
Jesus will undo all the damage father Adam brought upon us because there will be healing for earth's nations according to Revelation 22:2
Please also notice the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for the healing of earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
Jesus will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18
Blessed with the benefits of healing, and No one will say, " I am sick...." - Isaiah 33:24 - and enemy death will be No more - 1 Corinthians 15:26
Death being brought to nothing means: No one will die ever again, and those on Earth will have ' everlasting life ' (Not immortal life) on Earth forever and ever.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
It sucks that you can't answer such a simple question directly.
The fact is you know that according to the Qur'an Adam was meant to die. Just like most of the Muslim community accept that God created us to test us.
Either god created Adam to have a good life eternally
Or god created him to die and be tested.

Otherwise there is no other response in the Qur'an. Your other answer basically says we don't know.

It sucks that you cant understand an explanation. Really sucks.

At least you should have tried to understand and provide some sort of intellectual response. You come from your understanding of God, and expect your type of answer.

Theodicy

1. There is no easy answer

2. Are you willing to accept the answer

Why is there no easy answer?

God creates us, gives us free will, thus evil exists because we have free will. This evil comes behind us and we are tested so that if we live righteously we will go to heaven one day when we die - The average answer we get.

Then why should God create us at all? There is this God who sits outside our realm apparently according to many Islamic scholars and creates the universe for us to prove ourselves. Billions and billions of humans created to prove ourselves.

I don’t think so.

The problem with this subject is that honest exploration in the subject of theodicy is almost blasphemy, and you can be shunned. The biggest and most pertinent problem in this subject is we as individuals do not want to question the creation narrative given to us by our ancestors. We do not want to honestly question this idea that God created all good, Satan thing happened and we are all in this plight now, because we do not want to think that there could be much more to it. God has to be a supreme being outside our realm looking down upon us, that’s the problem.

Creation according to Islam as defined in the Quran is that God creates by will. Kun. This Kun is not like a divine being wades his wand and the universe came to exist. Kun is being part of creation itself.

There are many verses in the Quran that says “We made it happen”. E.g. We put a seal upon their hearts. That’s not the exact rendering of that. It means this has happened, that’s the Quranic language. That type of language is all over the Quran.

Why does suffering exist?

This is probably one of the most important questions, most difficult for religious proponents to answer. Why does an innocent child, never sinned, didn’t even have the time to think of sinning, suffer and die of cancer or a Tsunami? Is that the parent’s sin? No, sin is not inherited. Then why would a child suffer? The same goes to all humans.

How does a child come to this world with a disability? What did he do to receive such a dirty test? Is God that bad to test a human being with a disability? Or is that a test for everyone around him?

The Quran does not portray God as a being like Zeus. In fact its not God at all. God is the traditional English word with which we don’t have a choice but to refer to Allah. Allah means The Divinity. Al ilah. Like The Mother, she doesn’t need a name for you to know who your mom is. When you say the mother, you know. Thus Allah is not a name. It’s a description.

This concept of God is not one who sits far away and keeps looking at us like we are ants. He is part of this universe. Yes, it is a consciousness that’s within the whole creation. Now if you study ibn Arabis theory that’s akin to this you will see that he was called a heretic.

The problem with religions is that there is something called the mainstream, orthodoxy and heresy. Mainstream is generally controlled by the biggest sect. In the case of Islam, it’s the Sunnis. But they don’t realize that there are many more sects out there, and they believe they are Muslims too. Orthodoxy has Greek roots and basically means “correct belief”. Heresy in Greek simply means choice. So anyone who makes a choice to have a different view from the mainstream is a heretic. That’s why great minds like Avicenna were called heretics. So in short, anyone who makes a choice is a heretic and everyone who doesn’t make a choice and sticks to the mainstream is orthodox. This is the case with Christianity as well.

Thus it is a choice that one must make to understand this “Theodicy”.

Nature of God

Isnt it funny that you would see Muslims say that God is beyond understanding. Kufuwan, the word that means comparable in the chapter 112. There is nothing comparable, so you cant fathom God. Whats funny is that, after saying this, they say God is not part of creation, he is away from creation, outside creation etc.

If we cant ever think what God is like according to Surah Ikhlas, how could we describe him.

No! He cannot be understood. That’s what the Quran says.

But he is involved in creation. That’s what the Quran portrays vehemently. Every time the Quran says we made something happen. Kun fayakoon.

Shaithan

We have inherited Dogmas. One of them is always understanding Saithan as a being.

Shaithan means deviant. Allowing Shaithan to dwell in this universe is also allowing deviance. That is why we have meteorites landing on earth. Deviance, which is the way of the universe. If not for the ozone layer we will be smithereens. Why would there be a holocaust? How many children did hitler murder? Does God actually put us through such an atrocity to test us? How about the atomic bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Absurd.

Take a look at this verse.

67:5 - We have adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and We made it with projectiles against the devils; and We prepared for them the retribution of the blazing fire.


Can you see the word ‘devil’ up there? Its Shayatheeni, Shaythan. What is this projectiles against the devil? As if Devil is a being with flesh and bones and we throw stuff at him to hurt him or keep him away. That’s not what this verse means.

Its not projectiles. Its Rajm. Rajm means an offensive. A casting. A contending for superiority. Shayatheen is deviant. What does not follow the rules or normal course. Could easily mean foreign debris that enters the earths atmosphere, deviant. Azab means a torment. The ending of the verse says a torment of the blazing fire. Describes how the ozone layer takes care of deviant debris.


Thus Shaythan is not always a being. Thus God allowed deviance to live in creation. Which means people are deviant, nature itself can be deviant. Rebellious. Goes against normal laws. How could you explain the millions of children born with a disability while the parents or ancestors don’t have any? Medical mystery.



Creation


How come God took six Ayyams for creation? Why does the Quran need to say that it took six periods? That is to show that God does not create things like Dumbledore. It’s a process, a natural process. It took six epochs of time for the whole universe to come to existence the way we know it. And God was part of the creation and the act of creation. He does not get involved changing the course of nature. Because Shaithan or deviance exists.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Yes but muslims don't believe in original sin.

How do they think sin started if it had No origin ?
How could ' righteous servants inherit the land ' - SURAH XXI 105 - since we are all sinners ?
In order to become righteous, wouldn't we have to regain the original human perfection that Adam had before his downfall ?
 

anonymous9887

bible reader
How do they think sin started if it had No origin ?
How could ' righteous servants inherit the land ' - SURAH XXI 105 - since we are all sinners ?
In order to become righteous, wouldn't we have to regain the original human perfection that Adam had before his downfall ?
Well first they believe that sin is not passed on generically.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
1. I have no desire to bring no teaching into the Qur'an.
2. It's theology. We have facts. Adam died. Why? We simply look at the facts and see if the "divine book" can answer that.

God either:
1. Created Adam with the capacity to live forever
2. Or god created Adam to die
3. If god created Adam to live forever why can't we? If he created Adam to die why? This is confronting a reality for both the bible and the Qur'an.

Paul. May I ask you something simple?

Why are you so obsessed with Adam? How about all the animals. All life on earth. Everything has a beginning and an end. Birth and death if you may. Even stars do. Having all of this, why are you obsessed with Adam?

Thats because your theology has the concept of Original sin involving Adam and Jesus's redemption on the cross.Thats your theology. Why do you ask me?

Also in that case why dont you ask these?

1. Why did God create Adam to eat off the tree?
2. Why did God make the woman to entice Adam to eat?
3. Why did God make the tree in the first place?

DId he?
 
Top