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How does your faith rationalize god allowing the existence of evil, death, and suffering?

A

anonymous9887

bible reader
firedragon said:
Hi Paul. I would like to prod a bit further about the bible since thats the basis of your theology. We Muslims believe in revelations that came before the Quran. There are 3 mentioned in the Quran by name, Injeel, Zaboor, Torah.

You believe Jesus was created before any creation etc etc. But do you find that kind of teaching in all the gospels? Now we believe Mark was the first in theological studies. Well there are many reasons but nevertheless, Mark to John the theology has evolved. Make an honest exploration.

Though the Quran talks of Injeel, Zeboor, Torah, the bible does not claim to have them. Many Christians claim that the Injeel is the New Testament, the most arrogant theory. None of the gospels claim to be THE GOSPEL. There are four books, written by some authors, anonymous, named Gospel of Mark and so forth. They never had names, never claimed authorship. But they have been canonised however. Do you understand? You are basing your theology on books that dont even have an author.

You are accusing Jabar of quoting other peoples work, but you are basing your salvation on people you dont have even a clue of. Mark didnt write Mark. John didnt write John. There are so many issues that you ignore because you just cant allow yourself to think otherwise. Bible writers have been trying from the beginning to deify Jesus. They even added their own words to make him exalted. Even the trinity was a concept they tried their best to add to the bible. Example 1st John 5:7 which was removed because it was forgery. All gospels had forgeries. I mean obvious, evident forgeries.

There is no prostitute narration, there is no talking in tongues, there are no handling snakes and drinking poison. All fake. Did Jesus get angry with the leper or did he feel compassion towards him? Someone has changed it in one manuscript.

I saw you accuse Jabar of finding stuff on the internet and copying others work. I dont say he did, but even if he did so what?

You claimed that you go to Papyrus to read the bible, you dont stop at reading a translation. Which Papyrus do you read. Tell me.
Click to expand...
Very well I will provide answers for these charges, but again even though I know you are capable of looking at both sides of the coin but are not.

Just like if I go to a website that "attempts" to destroy the Qur'an and I don't look at the defenses for the charges brought up, what does that say about me?
 
A

anonymous9887

bible reader
firedragon said:
Hi Paul. I would like to prod a bit further about the bible since thats the basis of your theology. We Muslims believe in revelations that came before the Quran. There are 3 mentioned in the Quran by name, Injeel, Zaboor, Torah.

You believe Jesus was created before any creation etc etc. But do you find that kind of teaching in all the gospels? Now we believe Mark was the first in theological studies. Well there are many reasons but nevertheless, Mark to John the theology has evolved. Make an honest exploration.

Though the Quran talks of Injeel, Zeboor, Torah, the bible does not claim to have them. Many Christians claim that the Injeel is the New Testament, the most arrogant theory. None of the gospels claim to be THE GOSPEL. There are four books, written by some authors, anonymous, named Gospel of Mark and so forth. They never had names, never claimed authorship. But they have been canonised however. Do you understand? You are basing your theology on books that dont even have an author.

You are accusing Jabar of quoting other peoples work, but you are basing your salvation on people you dont have even a clue of. Mark didnt write Mark. John didnt write John. There are so many issues that you ignore because you just cant allow yourself to think otherwise. Bible writers have been trying from the beginning to deify Jesus. They even added their own words to make him exalted. Even the trinity was a concept they tried their best to add to the bible. Example 1st John 5:7 which was removed because it was forgery. All gospels had forgeries. I mean obvious, evident forgeries.

There is no prostitute narration, there is no talking in tongues, there are no handling snakes and drinking poison. All fake. Did Jesus get angry with the leper or did he feel compassion towards him? Someone has changed it in one manuscript.

I saw you accuse Jabar of finding stuff on the internet and copying others work. I dont say he did, but even if he did so what?

You claimed that you go to Papyrus to read the bible, you dont stop at reading a translation. Which Papyrus do you read. Tell me.
Click to expand...
Still working on the claims.
What is God's kingdom that the Injeel speaks of? Matthew 9:60
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Paul Chavez said:
Exactly one point is we believe Jesus died on an upright stake.

2. What do you do with all these passages
- John 3:11-13
-John 6:38
- john 6:62
- john 17:5
-john 1:1
- John 8:58
Click to expand...

John, John, John .. we don't even know who John was? Why did the Bible compilers include 4 gospels? A bit suspicious that John is different from the other 3!
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Paul Chavez said:
You can try to disprove the bible all you want but I cannot serve a god who:
1. Is personally testing us.
2. When we fail puts us in torture for eternity, for what we did a short period of time.
3. Who created us to die and suffer initially.

Rationalize that any way you want but majority of muslims accept things as tests from god. I will not worship a god like that.
Click to expand...
Guess who that sounds like?
Yes, satan himself, that's right :(

Almighty God wrongs nobody .. it's mankind who wrongs himself. Somebody who ends up in hell only has themselves to blame .. can you blame the judge if you are sentenced to prison? Most likely not!
 
A

anonymous9887

bible reader
muhammad_isa said:
Guess who that sounds like?
Yes, satan himself, that's right :(

Almighty God wrongs nobody .. it's mankind who wrongs himself. Somebody who ends up in hell only has themselves to blame .. can you blame the judge if you are sentenced to prison? Most likely not!
Click to expand...
No. Actually no matter how you reason if my child disobeys me I could not torture him for eternity, with what hearts can someone do that.
When people are sentenced by god they simply no longer exist, no need for eternal literal suffering.
 
Jabar

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
firedragon said:
Hi Paul. I would like to prod a bit further about the bible since thats the basis of your theology. We Muslims believe in revelations that came before the Quran. There are 3 mentioned in the Quran by name, Injeel, Zaboor, Torah.

You believe Jesus was created before any creation etc etc. But do you find that kind of teaching in all the gospels? Now we believe Mark was the first in theological studies. Well there are many reasons but nevertheless, Mark to John the theology has evolved. Make an honest exploration.

Though the Quran talks of Injeel, Zeboor, Torah, the bible does not claim to have them. Many Christians claim that the Injeel is the New Testament, the most arrogant theory. None of the gospels claim to be THE GOSPEL. There are four books, written by some authors, anonymous, named Gospel of Mark and so forth. They never had names, never claimed authorship. But they have been canonised however. Do you understand? You are basing your theology on books that dont even have an author.

You are accusing Jabar of quoting other peoples work, but you are basing your salvation on people you dont have even a clue of. Mark didnt write Mark. John didnt write John. There are so many issues that you ignore because you just cant allow yourself to think otherwise. Bible writers have been trying from the beginning to deify Jesus. They even added their own words to make him exalted. Even the trinity was a concept they tried their best to add to the bible. Example 1st John 5:7 which was removed because it was forgery. All gospels had forgeries. I mean obvious, evident forgeries.

There is no prostitute narration, there is no talking in tongues, there are no handling snakes and drinking poison. All fake. Did Jesus get angry with the leper or did he feel compassion towards him? Someone has changed it in one manuscript.

I saw you accuse Jabar of finding stuff on the internet and copying others work. I dont say he did, but even if he did so what?

You claimed that you go to Papyrus to read the bible, you dont stop at reading a translation. Which Papyrus do you read. Tell me.
Click to expand...

Surpassed you in terms of comment count, hehe.

:p
 
A

anonymous9887

bible reader
muhammad_isa said:
Again, you don't tell us if all creatures will no longer die in this time period .. I wonder why that is..
Click to expand...
Well ok I will quote again.
Psalms 37:29
Says the righteous will possess the earth forever and live forever on it.
John 17:3 jesus said this is life everlasting their coming to k ow you.
John 6:58 who ever feeds on this bread will live forever.
Isaiah 45:18 who did not create it (earth) for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited.

Ecclessiastes 1:4 the earth remains forever.

So piece it together.
1. If we are eventually going to live forever
2. The earth remains forever
3. God created the earth to be inhabited.
4. And the righteous will posses the earth forever

peace.
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Paul Chavez said:
Well ok I will quote again.
Psalms 37:29
Says the righteous will possess the earth forever and live forever on it.
John 17:3 jesus said this is life everlasting their coming to k ow you.
John 6:58 who ever feeds on this bread will live forever.
Isaiah 45:18 who did not create it (earth) for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited.

Ecclessiastes 1:4 the earth remains forever.

So piece it together.
1. If we are eventually going to live forever
2. The earth remains forever
3. God created the earth to be inhabited.
4. And the righteous will posses the earth forever

peace.
Click to expand...
What a shame! Just a load of Bible quotes in English translation to try to substantiate a particular sectarian view.
Scriptures are meant to be read in context .. you will never be successful in this way and will only succeed in misleading others
 
A

anonymous9887

bible reader
muhammad_isa said:
What a shame! Just a load of Bible quotes in English translation to try to substantiate a particular sectarian view.
Scriptures are meant to be read in context .. you will never be successful in this way and will only succeed in misleading others
Click to expand...
If I am taking the scriptures out of context please enlighten me, please explain the context, and don't go looking at others work, you explain it.
 
A

anonymous9887

bible reader
muhammad_isa said:
What a shame! Just a load of Bible quotes in English translation to try to substantiate a particular sectarian view.
Scriptures are meant to be read in context .. you will never be successful in this way and will only succeed in misleading others
Click to expand...
Again I am not trying to argue here. I am here to bring valid arguments and be able to have peaceful conversations.

I will repeat once again I cannot accept the Qur'an because of the portrait it paints of god.
1. Creating a place of eternal literal torment does not seem like something a loving god would do.
2. To say I am going to create humans to put them on the earth as mortals and limitations, and allow them to do as they choose and god deliberately test some harder than others is not logical at all. If what I just mentioned in #2 was his original intention I don't want nothing to do with that period.
3. I believe the creator is loving the both I mentioned above does not reflect a loving god.
 
A

Agondonter

Active Member
Paul Chavez said: When people are sentenced by god they simply no longer exist, no need for eternal literal suffering.

muhammad_isa said: And you know this how?

Is Allah merciful and compassionate or not? Just wondering. :cool:
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Paul Chavez said:
You can try to disprove the bible all you want but I cannot serve a god who:
1. Is personally testing us.
2. When we fail puts us in torture for eternity, for what we did a short period of time.
3. Who created us to die and suffer initially.

Rationalize that any way you want but majority of muslims accept things as tests from god. I will not worship a god like that.
Click to expand...

No dont serve GOd at all. Ignore my post, change the subject, but it still stands that you follow people you dont have a clue of. Not clue. Not God.

Peace.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Paul Chavez said:
Let's just again say for a minute once again you are right.
You are looking at some scholars that are muslim, and again some that are atheist. Those are the scholars you are quoting from.
This is why I believe muslims lack in debating. You guys use your own arguments, like for example hear oh Israel Jehovah is one Jehovah. But that just show that you do not understand the argument.
What I was telling Jabar is we also have answers to those charges you are bringing.
THEY ARE NOT NEW ARGUMENTS!!!!!
A good argument invalidates the defense made.
just the fact that Jabar looked at an argument one sided being that there are also response to those charges, what do you think that shows me?

When I picked a topic to discuss it was the most important I think, some scholars are not doing well on, and it was like you said theodicy.

Again you are defending Jabar which blasphemed your god saying we are tested by god.
Click to expand...

I did not defend Jabar. If I was, I would have tried to prove he was right. What I said is, you copped out by saying that he is fishing off the internet. Well, arent you?

You have not answered my post. You replied, with irrelevant absurdities.

You havent still told me what Papyrus you look at. You said you look at Papyrus and codex's etc. So what Papyrus?
You quoted Sinaiticus without knowing what books are in it.
When I asked about Barnabus you responded as if you know what it is, you thought it was the medieval Gospel of Barnabus, in fact it is Epistolia Varnava. Bar Nabba. Epistle of Barnabus.

Being this, why are you pointing at others for simpler things like learning off the internet.

Why do you look at the thimble in my eye while there is a plank in yours? - Jesus Christ.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Paul Chavez said:
Very well I will provide answers for these charges, but again even though I know you are capable of looking at both sides of the coin but are not.

Just like if I go to a website that "attempts" to destroy the Qur'an and I don't look at the defenses for the charges brought up, what does that say about me?
Click to expand...

Tell me mate. Lol. What website is this from?

Paul, dont count everyone into the same boat as you. You dont know who I am, I dont know who you are, but we can be honest to eachother and respond with an intellectual response. We dont have to lie, escape, cherry pick. Im sorry, but you dont know what another persons education level is bro. So dont accuse of fishing off the internet.

I hate quoting websites personally. People who quote websites are complete hypocrites just trying to defame rather than make a learned response. I have seen that from many many here. At least they should understand and analyse. Nope.

I do commend you for not doing that. But you are against talking of a God who tests people etc when I have already answered you.

You have not given a single answer to any of the questions I posed.

Let me ask you one more. Who wrote Hebrews?
 
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