How much does the Christian God really love us?

[waitasec]

Well, all mankind has faith in somethings, like faith that the car is going to start in the morning when you have but 10 minutes to get to work.

i wonder why that is...maybe because it usually does....people experience the car starting and rationality would point to the direction yes the car will start again...even so it's a machine and is manipulated by people.

Faith in God is lying dormant in all of us that needs awakening. Awakening of which only God can do, but first.

The bible states that by hearing and by the word of God faith is awakened.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If you have no faith in God, how can you possibly be a witness?

Blessings, AJ

pure speculation...
there is no evidence of this other than what the bible claims.
i'm sure you've heard of the placebo effect.

so really, faith in god doesn't help anyone more than not having faith.
no one can possibly claim they are any more happier or peaceful than the other.

 

[look3467]

we have doctors and medicine for that...

True!

Is forgiveness something that mankind can do readily as part of mankind's make up or is forgiveness a spiritually enabled?

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

pure speculation...>>>?waitasec

I'm never going to prove the existence of God unless there is an entering into the spiritual realm of understanding.

All's I can do is share my views, my experiences in life where God has been part of it to testify of His goodness.

The choice is up to the individual to decide for themselves what they ought to believe.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

so really, faith in god doesn't help anyone more than not having faith.>>>waitasec

I agreed with you only in making the case that anyone can be helped, but that faith in God has a healing that starts from within and works its way out.

Where as in the world, mankind can only be helped from the outside in.

IE. An alcoholic must be kept away from alcohol in order to help break the addiction.

Where as in the spiritual sense, God takes away the desire from the individual and or helps the individual work its way out of it.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

no one can possibly claim they are any more happier or peaceful than the other.>>>waitasec

You haven't been around those who do.

I have.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Enoughie]

Well, all mankind has faith in somethings, like faith that the car is going to start in the morning when you have but 10 minutes to get to work.

That's a misleading use of language.

It's not faith that we have - it's expectations.

We expect certain things based on certain knowledge we have. Based on this knowledge we can either have reasonable and realistic expectations, or unrealistic and unreasonable expectations.

Belief in your god is not based on knowledge. There is no factual basis to support the existence of your god. Moreover, your "faith" and belief in eternal life is both unreasonable and unrealistic.

Faith in God is lying dormant in all of us that needs awakening.

Reasonable and realistic expectations shouldn't lead to unreasonable and unrealistic ones. When they do, you lose touch with reality and become delusional. That's not a healthy thing. Even though religion might tell you otherwise.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[Enoughie]

members of my club excel at many things, we are not the deluded ones .

excel?
Karl Marx said "[Religion] is the opium of the people". Marx also stated: "Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism"

some people agree with Marx... I personally don't...

deluded?
Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt -- Dervic et al. 161 (12): 2303 -- Am J Psychiatry
http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html
etc. etc. etc....

"Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder. "


.... you're more than welcome to come join us over here - the water's great!

What are the statistics for people who derive their hope, purpose, and morality not from the supernatural, but rather from the natural world?

Merely comparing religiously affiliated and unaffiliated people in general, without looking at more specific groups, seems like an incomplete and misleading analysis.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[Enoughie]

No. It is because a life after death is an idea that only speaks to our vanity, and no true God could come up with anything so wicked and ungodly.

Ecc 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.

Why? Because those things seen with the eye is all that mankind can try to understand, but what is lacking, is the eye towards the spiritual that only through the spiritual eye can one see the works of God.

Until that happens, one is in the dark continually.

Just a bit more empty rhetoric not based on any facts, that has to be accepted by the believer on credulity.

This is nothing but theological acrobatics and a psychological warfare against human intelligence.

When you throw your intelligence out the window, you can believe absolutely any claim. But fact is that the reward of life after death was specifically designed to speak to our vanity. There is absolutely no need for it for any other reason. It is a wicked and ungodly doctrine, that could not have come from a true God.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[Enoughie]

Also, it could be an interesting scientific experiment to take people who are Born Again Christians (and therefore are supposed to have a discerning eye for "things of the spirit") and ask them to rate certain sentences that are presented to them.

Some of these sentences would be claims made in the Bible, and other sentences would be utter fabrications that contradict the Bible (yet are written in the biblical style).

Then we can tell if Born Agains really have a discerning eye for "things of the spirit" or they're merely credulous fools who would believe any nonsense that seems to come from the bible.

(I expect that the results of such a test - which would certainly demonstrate that the latter case is true - would be countered by some more theological acrobatics as per usual. That's always the case when science demonstrates that religion is nothing but self-delusion).

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[waitasec]

Is forgiveness something that mankind can do readily as part of mankind's make up or is forgiveness a spiritually enabled?

Blessings, AJ

yes i can forgive those who wrong me as well those of faith can...

 

[waitasec]

I'm never going to prove the existence of God unless there is an entering into the spiritual realm of understanding.

All's I can do is share my views, my experiences in life where God has been part of it to testify of His goodness.

The choice is up to the individual to decide for themselves what they ought to believe.

Blessings, AJ

right. i agree. i am on the same page here.
faith in god is no better than faith in ones self. faith in god hasn't shown any difference as far as what is a better way, thus far.

 

[waitasec]

I agreed with you only in making the case that anyone can be helped, but that faith in God has a healing that starts from within and works its way out.

Where as in the world, mankind can only be helped from the outside in.

again you are making a judgment call..this is sheer speculation on your part. there is no way you can support this hypothesis.

if you are insinuating one can only be healed through faith, that is a false statement. people are healed from within all the time without faith in god.

IE. An alcoholic must be kept away from alcohol in order to help break the addiction.

Where as in the spiritual sense, God takes away the desire from the individual and or helps the individual work its way out of it.

again this is speculation on your part.
you need to back this up by using fact not by making statements based on faith.

 

[free spirit]

Also, it could be an interesting scientific experiment to take people who are Born Again Christians (and therefore are supposed to have a discerning eye for "things of the spirit")

Then we can tell if Born Agains really have a discerning eye for "things of the spirit" or they're merely credulous fools who would believe any nonsense that seems to come from the bible.

(I expect that the results of such a test - which would certainly demonstrate that the latter case is true - would be countered by some more theological acrobatics as per usual. That's always the case when science demonstrates that religion is nothing but self-delusion).

I would like to demostrate to you that belief in God is not a self-delusion
Yes some believer are gullible and make fools of themselves by having faith on faith which is not faith at all because it has nothing to stand on: but faith based on understanding is strong and we can trust our eternal life to it. I am a born again Christian and I boldly claim to understand the New Testament but I have found that Christians have put up a brick wall in front of me because I dare to restore the New Testament the way it was original written, how can I do that you may ask? By the guidance of the Holy Spirit of cause.
You are an umbeliever so you would not mind to judge the following article logically and spiritually, yes olso spiritually I can take your scorns.

(VII) Throughout the ages many pagan religions adopted various forms of sacrifice to appease God. Some even went to the extreme repugnance of offering human sacrifice, like virgins or infants whose bodies were unblemished.
The Jews however offered animal sacrifices, not to appease God as it were, but to make atonement for their sins; in other words, by their faith in a promise given to them by God, they covered their sins for a time with a substitute life “blood” of an unblemished animal, until those who believed in the promise of the coming Messiah would be redeemed by the unblemished sacrifice of the Christ.
Christianity therefore was born through the sacrifice of the unblemished life of the Messiah, His unblemished life and eventual sinless death were necessary, for in so doing He fulfilled the law of God, hence enabling Him to do three wonderful things for the world which are: First, reverse what Adam didand give justification of life to all of humanity; second, forgive the sins of past, present and future faithful generations, and third, give the gift of His Grace to those who would believe and receive the Holy Spirit.
Some of those who receive the gift of His Grace have been invited to grow and mature in that gift, for we read in Luke 9:23: “And He was saying to them all, ‘if anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.’” Somehow that invitation to deny oneself is tested by the strength of his or her personal faith, for we must keep present in mind that it is not compulsory to literally follow in His footsteps, for it is written: “If anyone wishes to come after Me” That statement is just because we are all individuals whose personalities and strength differ in many ways. It is compulsory though to “love your neighbour like yourself,” which is the basic requirement if we truly aspire to be Christians and then if anyone wishes there is the devotional sacrifice to go after him.
This devotional sacrifice of worship to God is an exceptional way of self-denial with which we get closer to our Lord, for we read in 1Corinthians 7:32-38: “But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord;
33 but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and his interests are divided.
34 And the woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35 And this I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but to promote what is seemly, and to secure some believers for an undivided devotion to the Lord.
36 But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly towards his celibacy, if he should be of full age, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let him marry.
37 But he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own body, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own body chaste, he will do well.
38 So then both he who gives his own body in marriage does well, but he who does not give himself in marriage will do better.”
As you can see, the last three verses 36-38, with the inserted Italics are the obvious restorations needed, which enable us to understand the connection and the true intended meaning of the previous verses of 32-35. Thus if any person, male or female, is willingly prepared and able to freely undertake the sacrifice of celibacy as their sacrifice of worship, that sacrifice is acceptable to God, this is confirmed in Matthew 19:10-12: “The disciples said to Him, ‘If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.’ But He said to them, ‘Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this let him accept it.’”
Romans 12:1 also urges us to keep our body holy by saying: “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.”
We all should be able to accept the above open and straightforward restorations, but let us investigate the facts for ourselves and become fully convinced that today’s Bibles’ description of the above three verses were undeniably distorted. So let us read the three verses in question as they are written in the “New American Standard Bible” 1Corinthians 7:36-38: “But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she should be of full age, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry,
37 but he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well.
38 so then both he who gives his own virgin daughter in marriage does well, and he who does not give her in marriage will do better.”

 

[free spirit]

Enoughie
PART 2
Other Bibles’ translations of the above three verses are a little different. In some Bibles even the inserted italics are different; but it is obvious to me that in them the ambiguities also still remain in place. Furthermore, any reasonable person is able to see that the English expressions of those three verses are confusing to say the least. These verses are openly in opposition to the women’s individual freedom, for we all know that fathers have control of their daughter’s lives only for a short time. It would be reasonable to think from reading the above scriptures that the father is offering the daughter’s celibacy as a sacrifice for his own perceived benefit.
Needless to say, for that obvious reason alone, the sacrifice is unacceptable to God.
What’s more, in my research I have found that the Pagan Roman religion did have virgin females (vestali), which were pledged to celibacy until thirty years of age, and were under penalty of death if they strayed. They were offered (maybe by their fathers) and dedicated for service to the state, for keeping burning the perennial fire of the temple and were entrusted to safeguard important government documents and records, like the last will and testament of the head of State, and to maintain and or assist him in the temple’s ceremonial function, for the head of the Roman State was also head of religion. (Pontifex Maximus)
It stands to reason that for these verses of 1Corinthians 7:36-38 to make any sense in the life of the faithful, they should be read in context with the preceding four verses as they are presented above. Only then the subject matter is exposed and becomes relevant to the lives of the believers, thus those faithful who are able can freely and confidently choose celibacy as a spiritual sacrifice of worship to our God.
Nevertheless, if any one, after committing to the “devotional sacrifice,” realise that the sacrifice of celibacy is too difficult for him to honestly fulfil, in such a case he can stop trying and get married with God’s blessing. It is apparent that Satan’s elaborate scheme is to prevent us from knowing God’s will and truth, for he knows that if we gain that knowledge he has only a little time left.
I am well aware of the difficulty believers will have in fully accepting what I have written in the above seven examples. Nevertheless I believe that these seven examples are only some of the stumbling blocks that Jesus warned us about because they thwart our understanding of God and have the capacity to lead us into the uncharted waters of imagination and speculation in which we all can easily get lost.
Search your heart. I am sure the Holy Spirit will want you to investigate all of the above restorations, for those restorations are supported by Scriptures and glorify our Lord and cancel any form of speculation and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God. But if you do not investigate or agree, and the disagreement is only on the basis that the written word is inviolable, you have become a casualty of today’s most widespread error, which considers that the worship of God is inseparable with the worship of the Bible. The Bible is a book that sincere believers openly and humbly confess not to fully understand and yet some will be unwilling to concede to the compelling evidence presented to them here. In such case it has happened to them as it is written in Acts 28:25-28.
In conclusion, you can rest assured that it is not I, or my writing, that will convince you of the correctness of the restorations of the Scriptures, but it will be the Lord working through your own sincere investigation of the matter.
There is a possibility that you simply do not agree. However, if you find any part of the restorations offensive, or you consider my action a sacrilege, please read the concluding article “What is Truth” at the end of this book and peace will return to you.
I do not seek to be followed, nor do I ask any one to change their faith, but I long to share the knowledge of understanding with those who seek the Lord so that they may also gain a deep and steadfast insight into God’s word and will.
Glory to God

 

[waitasec]

I would like to demostrate to you that belief in God is not a self-delusion
Yes some believer are gullible and make fools of themselves by having faith on faith which is not faith at all because it has nothing to stand on: but faith based on understanding is strong and we can trust our eternal life to it. I am a born again Christian and I boldly claim to understand the New Testament but I have found that Christians have put up a brick wall in front of me because I dare to restore the New Testament the way it was original written, how can I do that you may ask? By the guidance of the Holy Spirit of cause.
You are an umbeliever so you would not mind to judge the following article logically and spiritually, yes olso spiritually I can take your scorns.

would it be fair to say you believe faith in god would allow for the believer to feel MORE peace, MORE happier than someone without faith in god?

 

[look3467]

It's not faith that we have - it's expectations.>>>Enoughie

Your expectations, hope if you will, end here with this life.

Mine.....doesn't!

We expect certain things based on certain knowledge we have. Based on this knowledge we can either have reasonable and realistic expectations, or unrealistic and unreasonable expectations.

You nailed it right on the head! Knowledge we have.

Now, the bible speaks of two distinct trees of knowledge, one is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, of which we all participate, and the the tree of life, of which is limited to those who choose to participate in it.

Both trees are metaphors of knowledge gained.

The one, tree of knowledge of good and evil entitled us to have reason by making choices.

The second entitles us to reach out and gain fruit of life.

What this world, all non-believers in God, can not understand what it means to reach out and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.

Since we already have life, life in the flesh, does not mean we have life, in the spirit.

The world understands what a re-birth means, with respect to the flesh, but can not fathom what it means to be born of the spirit.

There in lies the dilemma.

It is unreasonable for you to believe in a rebirth and therefore as you pointed out: quote "Reasonable and realistic expectations shouldn't lead to unreasonable and unrealistic ones", there can be no alternative view for you.

Realistic expectations are derived from things that can be seen, where the unrealistic ones are not seen, but hoped for.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

To give you an understanding of God's view (Spiritual view) on the nation of Israel:

Jer 3:23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.

The unbelief of Israel in Jesus as the coming Messiah, as is with all unbelievers, God gives us an insight into this world reality, looking at it with a spiritual view.

We all know that "Hills, Mountains, are not as like you an I, that should demonstrate hope, but are as dead objects, without any life except God move them.

So, here "hills and mountains represent the position of authority that the nation of Israel held, and thus in vain, (Like as the mountains and hills) they hope for a physical salvation from the coming Messiah, or to be moved.

For their hope was in the physical deliverance of their sufferings in hopes of a better physical world.

So there, as long as they continue to think and believe that way, they remain in a dead state.

Likewise, all unbelievers are as like the hills and the mountains, alive as hills or as mountains, but dead spiritually to God.

There must by necessity be a rebirth of our dead spirit, not the physical as quote: Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Can you see the lack of spiritual understanding there?

Can you see yourself in His place as well?

Blessings, AJ

 

[free spirit]

would it be fair to say you believe faith in god would allow for the believer to feel MORE peace, MORE happier than someone without faith in god?

Yes because the believer is fully assured that death is not the end. Olso a true believer can rationalise the possible difficulties in a relationship knowing that he or she is not to blame, and if he or she was to blame, he will say sorry a thousand time, in other words he or she knows how to repent. It becomes the unforgiving party lack of grace for the ongoing turmoil. Therefore giving him more peace and happiness.

 

[free spirit]

The world understands what a re-birth means, with respect to the flesh, but can not fathom what it means to be born of the spirit.

There must by necessity be a rebirth of our dead spirit, not the physical as quote: Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Blessings, AJ

The following is part of an article that I wrote in my book "the way God told it"

BORN AGAIN


Many books have been written but ambiguity, I believe, still surrounds this subject. Nothing in what I have read or in what I have heard from preachers has explained the fundamental differences between seeing the Kingdom of God, and entering the Kingdom of God.
For we read in John 3:3: “Jesus answered and said to him, truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
And in verse 5 we read: “Jesus answered, truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”
From the above verses we learn that there are two stages of transition if you like: one is to enable men to see the Kingdom of God and the other is to enable men to enter the Kingdom of God. Like everything else in our lives, the spiritual journey also begins at birth. We must realise therefore that when we are born our spirit is agnostic. In other words, we do not know if there is a God or not. However as we grow up, at some point in time of our life (mostly before or in our early teens), we will make that decision based on our own observation of the awe of creation.
I personally remember when I made that decision. It was based on my reason and discernment which came about from an ordinary lesson of religious education that I had attended months before in Rome, which taught that the world was so beautiful that it could not have evolved by itself. Hence I thought while I was observing my surroundings during the summer holiday at my grandfather’s farm, that there must be a Creator. All of the natural things and animals that surrounded me could not have happened by themselves, it was all too perfect.
At that time, unbeknown to me, my innocent fleshly spirit was born again as abeliever and willing to accept the religion of my ancestors. That religion in turn taught me to have faith in its doctrines and led me through the journey described in Galatians 3:23 to chapter 4:6, but now we will read only Galatians 4:1-6: “Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything. But he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental religious doctrines of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, in order that He might redeem those whoare under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!”’
With that uncomplicated history I can understand, where Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, was coming from when he spoke to Jesus. So in order to explain a number of important points on this subject we will read various scriptures from John 3:1-21: “Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; this man came to Jesus by night, and said to Him, ‘Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher, for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with Him.’”
Without realising it, Nicodemus had made a very important confession of faith to Jesus, by saying, they knew that Jesus had come from God as a teacher. By saying that, he demonstrated that he and others were believing and able to see the Kingdom of God in Jesus, for they recognised that God was performing miracles through Him. Jesus in turn confirmed that Nicodemus and others where able to see the Kingdom, for He answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” (Jesus’ words can also be understood to say; only a believer can see what you said.)
Unfortunately, Nicodemus did not recognise Jesus’ answer as a confirmation of his ability to see the Kingdom, for he was thrown completely out of balance because he could only think of having to be born again from his mother’s womb. Jesus however, in correcting Nicodemus’s misunderstanding, moved to the next spiritual transition by saying, “Truly, truly, I say to you unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (Jesus’ words can also be understood to say; unless one is converted and repents he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.)
It is obvious that Nicodemus had no trouble seeing the Kingdom of God in Jesus because he was a God-fearing man, honestly believing in the existence of God, trusting his spirit, which was born again as a believer through his Jewish religion.
Therefore we can be certain that all who earnestly believe and have a fear of God, regardless from which doctrine their faith was born, has the capability of seeing the Kingdom of God. (Remember the Roman centurion, Matthew 8:10 and the Canaanite woman, Matthew 15:27 - 28.)
Now to understand the transitional meaning of being “born of water and the spirit”, one has to consider that the Lord is telling us that a conversion of our beliefs and attitude has to take place through our immersion in the water of the word, and to live our lives according to our new understanding of godliness which comes from that word. That is to say, this conversion has to move us from a faith based on religions doctrines to a lifestyle of godliness so that we might eventually share His Divine character.
However we should recognise also, that the faith based on religious doctrines has the capability of developing into two vastly different kinds of faiths, for Jesus said in John 3:6, “That faith which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that faith which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” We can see the difference between these two faiths if we are able to compare the faiths of Cain and Abel, Ishmael and Isaac, Esau and Jacob. (Or see the different attitude in the faith of the apostle Paul before and after his conversion to Christianity.)
Those who have a religious worldly faith but do not have godliness, do not see or understand the divine nature of the Kingdom, nor do they see the need to be converted to the truth of the grace of God, for those believers do not practice goodness. As it is written in John 3:20-21: “For everyone who is a hypocrite hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practises the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
In Matthew 18:3 there is a confirmation of the necessary action to be taken by sincere religious people who seek to enter the grace of the Kingdom, for Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.”
So we now know also that the expressions “born again, renewal, converted, become like children, repentance,” are all saying the same thing, and that we are meant to mature in His life, which is clearly confirmed in Ephesians 4:23-24, for it says: “Be renewed in the spirit of your mind and put on the New Self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.”
This conversion, or entrance into the kingdom can be dramatic as it was in Paul’s case; keeping in mind that Paul’s zealous Jewish faith was extremely honest. That zealous and honest faith is the reason for which the Lord converted him from being a faithful violent person to a faithful loving person in such a dramatic way. Or the conversion can take some time, as we read in 2Corinthians 3:18: “But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as the Lord allows the spirit.”

 

[Enoughie]

I would like to demostrate to you that belief in God is not a self-delusion
Yes some believer are gullible and make fools of themselves by having faith on faith which is not faith at all because it has nothing to stand on: but faith based on understanding is strong and we can trust our eternal life to it.

Nothing you wrote demonstrates that your belief in the Christian god is not self-delusion.

All you've done is present a theological discussion to support your own point of view. It doesn't mean that this point of view is not delusional. Your point of view is still not based in reality but purely in scripture.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[Enoughie]

Your expectations, hope if you will, end here with this life.

Mine.....doesn't!

And that's where your expectations move from the realm of the realistic and reasonable, to the realm of unrealistic and unreasonable.

You nailed it right on the head! Knowledge we have.

Now, the bible speaks of two distinct trees of knowledge, one is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, of which we all participate, and the the tree of life, of which is limited to those who choose to participate in it.

Both trees are metaphors of knowledge gained.

The one, tree of knowledge of good and evil entitled us to have reason by making choices.

The second entitles us to reach out and gain fruit of life.

What this world, all non-believers in God, can not understand what it means to reach out and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.

Since we already have life, life in the flesh, does not mean we have life, in the spirit.

The world understands what a re-birth means, with respect to the flesh, but can not fathom what it means to be born of the spirit.

There in lies the dilemma.

It is unreasonable for you to believe in a rebirth and therefore as you pointed out: quote "Reasonable and realistic expectations shouldn't lead to unreasonable and unrealistic ones", there can be no alternative view for you.

Realistic expectations are derived from things that can be seen, where the unrealistic ones are not seen, but hoped for.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

To give you an understanding of God's view (Spiritual view) on the nation of Israel:

Jer 3:23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.

The unbelief of Israel in Jesus as the coming Messiah, as is with all unbelievers, God gives us an insight into this world reality, looking at it with a spiritual view.

We all know that "Hills, Mountains, are not as like you an I, that should demonstrate hope, but are as dead objects, without any life except God move them.

So, here "hills and mountains represent the position of authority that the nation of Israel held, and thus in vain, (Like as the mountains and hills) they hope for a physical salvation from the coming Messiah, or to be moved.

For their hope was in the physical deliverance of their sufferings in hopes of a better physical world.

So there, as long as they continue to think and believe that way, they remain in a dead state.

Likewise, all unbelievers are as like the hills and the mountains, alive as hills or as mountains, but dead spiritually to God.

There must by necessity be a rebirth of our dead spirit, not the physical as quote: Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Can you see the lack of spiritual understanding there?

Can you see yourself in His place as well?

It's not that I don't understand it. It's just that I realize it's nothing but a theological fabrication. You expect to gain eternal life through your belief in Jesus, and you think this is a reasonable and realistic expectation. This means you're self-delusional.

Similarly, I was told by some guy that if I drink Diet Coke every day I will live forever. Do you think this is a reasonable and realistic thing to believe in? It has the same "spiritual" basis as your beliefs.


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Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom