How much does the Christian God really love us?

[waitasec]

Yes because the believer is fully assured that death is not the end. Olso a true believer can rationalise the possible difficulties in a relationship knowing that he or she is not to blame, and if he or she was to blame, he will say sorry a thousand time, in other words he or she knows how to repent. It becomes the unforgiving party lack of grace for the ongoing turmoil. Therefore giving him more peace and happiness.

thats what i consider delusional. how in the world can you say that?
all you can speak of is from your own experience. you don't know me, for example, and what i have had to overcome in my life, so to say that you have MORE peace and you're happier than i is making you look as though you believe you are superior, and i'm sorry bud, i can't take that seriously.
you can say you are happier than before but it's impossible to compare that to someone else's experience.

 

[free spirit]

thats what i consider delusional. how in the world can you say that?
all you can speak of is from your own experience. you don't know me, for example, and what i have had to overcome in my life, so to say that you have MORE peace and you're happier than i is making you look as though you believe you are superior, and i'm sorry bud, i can't take that seriously.
you can say you are happier than before but it's impossible to compare that to someone else's experience.

No what I am saing is, that I as a believer have the tools to deal with the adversity of life, But God's grace is also extended to umbelievers, however it is more prevalent in believers: For we believers can repent of our errors without regrets.
So we are at peace with ourselves, with God and with the world.

 

[Blackheart]

Exactly, if a person does half of what God does, they would be put in prison for the rest of their, or worse. But, because he sets rules and offers something fairly good at the end of it - he's a brilliant, perfect loving God. Not in my opinion.

I really struggle to see this 'love'. If I said to my child do this and you will have a brilliant life with all you have ever wanted, but if you don't you'll suffer for the rest of your life - I would be done for and never see the outside world again!

Dude its a selection process. Who wants to progress to a place full of evil people? Surely you know that..if not then maybe you need to do some studying of what is actually expalined in the bible before condeming God.

 

[free spirit]

Nothing you wrote demonstrates that your belief in the Christian god is not self-delusion.

All you've done is present a theological discussion to support your own point of view. It doesn't mean that this point of view is not delusional. Your point of view is still not based in reality but purely in scripture.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

I have asked you to judge logically because logic seams to be your forte and spiritually because I did not want to escape your critisims, your answer is spiritual and I expected that. So logically which is the one that makes more sense? My rendering or what is written in bibles.

 

[Enoughie]

I have asked you to judge logically because logic seams to be your forte and spiritually because I did not want to escape your critisims, your answer is spiritual and I expected that. So logically which is the one that makes more sense? My rendering or what is written in bibles.

I think when you're dealing with fiction, such as in this case, you can interpret the text in whichever way you see fit.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[Luminous]

members of my club excel at many things, we are not the deluded ones .

no, not deluded... JUST LIARS

excel?
Karl Marx said "[Religion] is the opium of the people". Marx also stated: "Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism"

some people agree with Marx... I personally don't...

im sure at one point in his life he said, goo goo ga ga... i personally don't care.

deluded?
Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt -- Dervic et al. 161 (12): 2303 -- Am J Psychiatry
http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html
etc. etc. etc....

"Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder. "

Rats have significantly less lifetime suicide attempts than people.and have far more offspring, and more contact with family members.

.... you're more than welcome to come join us over here - the water's great!

you are drowning in your filth.

 

[Luminous]

No what I am saing is, that I as a believer have the tools to deal with the adversity of life, But God's grace is also extended to umbelievers, however it is more prevalent in believers: For we believers can repent of our errors without regrets.
So we are at peace with ourselves, with God and with the world.

I think living without regrets is purely evil and sociopathic...after all, you are guilty of all the good you didn't do. ...how can you repent, if you do not regret?
We must also endevour to be at peace with the tooth fairy and Santa Claus - peace can only be found in truth, which is only found in understanding of agnosticism, or in shear ignorant re-definition.

 

[waitasec]

No what I am saing is, that I as a believer have the tools to deal with the adversity of life, But God's grace is also extended to umbelievers, however it is more prevalent in believers: For we believers can repent of our errors without regrets.
So we are at peace with ourselves, with God and with the world.

you don't even know what you're saying...
"it is more prevalent in believers" is saying that you are more peaceful and happier than unbelievers
it's impossible to compare that to someone else's experience...your faith would have you believe you are more peaceful and happier, but if that were the case
what can you do that i cannot? i have the ability to forgive. i have the ability to give and to feel empathy, i have the ability to help those in need just as you do...
why do you feel you are superior than i? if you are capable of doing something that i cannot let me know, thus far you're only showing you are giving yourself
an undue sense of importance because you don't regret. either you're a sociopath, as luminous pointed out, or you're giving yourself too much credit because of your faith.

 

[free spirit]

I think when you're dealing with fiction, such as in this case, you can interpret the text in whichever way you see fit.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

I can only draw from your answer that you are unwilling to make a positive logical comment, not even on the good or bad English expression used.

 

[free spirit]

you don't even know what you're saying...
"it is more prevalent in believers" is saying that you are more peaceful and happier than unbelievers
it's impossible to compare that to someone else's experience...your faith would have you believe you are more peaceful and happier, but if that were the case
what can you do that i cannot? i have the ability to forgive. i have the ability to give and to feel empathy, i have the ability to help those in need just as you do...
why do you feel you are superior than i? if you are capable of doing something that i cannot let me know, thus far you're only showing you are giving yourself
an undue sense of importance because you don't regret. either you're a sociopath, as luminous pointed out, or you're giving yourself too much credit because of your faith.

You can do all things maybe better than anyone else can
I do not feel that I am superior to you in any shape or form, in actual fact my faith makes me a servant to you, I have the hope of eternal life, you have not. therefore I go out of my way to bring that hope to you olso. But if you want to remain hopeless that is your choise, and if in the process you verbally abuse me, I must forgive you and hold no grudges.
By the tone of your voice you must be a very unhappy lady

 

[free spirit]

would it be fair to say you believe faith in god would allow for the believer to feel MORE peace, MORE happier than someone without faith in god?

In the long term yes because
1) My lustful youth will cease, therefore I am content with my wife
2) I do not seek accessive worldly possessions therefore I am content with what I have and happy to share with those less fortunate.
3) I have the hope of eternal life
3) I have a Holy lifestile to fulfil, therefore I do good to those that I come in contact with.
4) I have a purpose for my life even after the children have left home
All of that I believe helps in making us MORE HAPPIER, MORE PEACEFULL, yes MORE CONTENTED is the right word here.

 

[waitasec]

You can do all things maybe better than anyone else can

i never said that i could, i said you and i are just as capable of doing the same things.

I do not feel that I am superior to you in any shape or form, in actual fact my faith makes me a servant to you, I have the hope of eternal life, you have not. therefore I go out of my way to bring that hope to you olso.

i understand that mindset having been on the other side of the fence,
the only problem i have is that in this servitude, there are believers who think they have the right to infringe on my inalienable right to marry whomever i want to marry...

But if you want to remain hopeless that is your choise,

for you information i am not hopeless...
again with the judgement call, how can you say that? it's an absurd preconceived notion you have and you don't even know me...

and if in the process you verbally abuse me, I must forgive you and hold no grudges.
By the tone of your voice you must be a very unhappy lady

i have shown nothing but respect for you. i never belittled you in anyway.
if you can show me where i did, i would greatly appreciate it.
perhaps it's the honesty you find abusive, but that was never my intention.

 

[waitasec]

In the long term yes because
1) My lustful youth will cease, therefore I am content with my wife
2) I do not seek accessive worldly possessions therefore I am content with what I have and happy to share with those less fortunate.
3) I have the hope of eternal life
3) I have a Holy lifestile to fulfil, therefore I do good to those that I come in contact with.
4) I have a purpose for my life even after the children have left home
All of that I believe helps in making us MORE HAPPIER, MORE PEACEFULL, yes MORE CONTENTED is the right word here.

are you suggesting that my life has no purpose?

i would agree that your life now can be happier and peaceful and more content than before, but you cannot say your life is happier and more peaceful and content than mine, that is impossible for you to say.
because there is nothing you can do that i cannot...we both have the same abilities. is saying that being abusive?

 

[free spirit]

i never said that i could, i said you and i are just as capable of doing the same things.
Yes



i understand that mindset having been on the other side of the fence,
the only problem i have is that in this servitude, there are believers who think they have the right to infringe on my inalienable right to marry whomever i want to marry...
Yes many denominations discourage marreing outside their denominations, that is unfortunate, so you can join your husband's to-be denomination if he has one.



for you information i am not hopeless...
again with the judgement call, how can you say that? it's an absurd preconceived notion you have and you don't even know me...
With hopeless I mean you have no hope of eternal life.
1 thessalonians 4:13-14 we read
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.



i have shown nothing but respect for you. i never belittled you in anyway.
if you can show me where i did, i would greatly appreciate it.
perhaps it's the honesty you find abusive, but that was never my intention.

Maybe you can speak to me, not at me.

 

[free spirit]

are you suggesting that my life has no purpose?

i would agree that your life now can be happier and peaceful and more content than before, but you cannot say your life is happier and more peaceful and content than mine, that is impossible for you to say.
because there is nothing you can do that i cannot...we both have the same abilities. is saying that being abusive?

You have to look of what I said in context of our discussion, I am not speaking about you in particular but in general in the case of most people: like most people would be more contented if they had 1 million dollars in the bank, even so most people would be more contented if they had the gift of the Holy Spirit in their heart.
Love you sister, you make the best of me come out.

 

[waitasec]

You have to look of what I said in context of our discussion, I am not speaking about you in particular but in general in the case of most people:

i understand that in a way, but when these things are said it is ultimately about me as an unbeliever, is it not? i make no apology for my point in saying that it is impossible for you to calibrate in your understanding that you can be MORE happier and at peace than an unbeliever because of your faith.
i'm not saying you don't have it, i'm saying there is no way for you to actually reason with any logical conclusion you can be more at peace than i.
if i can say there is no way i can have more peace than you, how could you say you have more peace then me...?

like most people would be more contented if they had 1 million dollars in the bank, even so most people would be more contented if they had the gift of the Holy Spirit in their heart.
Love you sister, you make the best of me come out.

maybe you have overlooked the eastern philosophy's of enlightenment and the search for inner peace...all without the assistance from the god in the bible. i don't believe money can give anyone inner peace...
and there are plenty of other non believers who would say the same thing.
life experience has brought me to that conclusion.



this is what i was responding to...

I would like to demostrate to you that belief in God is not a self-delusion

would it be fair to say you believe faith in god would allow for the believer to feel MORE peace, MORE happier than someone without faith in god?

Yes because the believer is fully assured that death is not the end. Olso a true believer can rationalise the possible difficulties in a relationship knowing that he or she is not to blame, and if he or she was to blame, he will say sorry a thousand time, in other words he or she knows how to repent. It becomes the unforgiving party lack of grace for the ongoing turmoil. Therefore giving him more peace and happiness.

No what I am saing is, that I as a believer have the tools to deal with the adversity of life, But God's grace is also extended to umbelievers, however it is more prevalent in believers: For we believers can repent of our errors without regrets.
So we are at peace with ourselves, with God and with the world.

With hopeless I mean you have no hope of eternal life.

hope for eternal life. if i may be so bold and i do not mean to disrespect you in any way nor am i insinuating you are capable of doing this.
but what is the difference between this line of thinking and that of a suicide bomber?
you did say..

For we believers can repent of our errors without regrets.
So we are at peace with ourselves, with God and with the world.

if that were true and a person with such a strong conviction, as in the case of a suicide bomber, believing their faith was the right faith, what's to stop someone from doing such a horrendous act?

you do realize that in the name of religion people do things they would not normally had they figured it out for themselves.
my own mom stayed married to an abusive man, mentally not physically, for 52 yrs thinking that god will change him. she is 74 and is now finally getting what i have been saying for years...divorce him. the bible, her upbringing, her faith all pointed towards the wrongness of divorce...
i'm not only blaming her faith in god for wasting her life, because he actually controlled her with the use of fear mongering...she comes from an old way of life in cuba where women were nothing unless they were married and had children...
i could go on and on about her, but think of the amount of fear she understood as faith in god for this hope her husband would change.

listen brother, i get your compassion. i know you want to show me the light, and i appreciate it, really i do. i just wanted to make a case for the reason unbelievers understand believers as those who are morally superior, when all along in the here and now we are just that- brothers and sisters.

 

[free spirit]

i understand that in a way, but when these things are said it is ultimately about me as an unbeliever, is it not? i make no apology for my point in saying that it is impossible for you to calibrate in your understanding that you can be MORE happier and at peace than an unbeliever because of your faith.
i'm not saying you don't have it, i'm saying there is no way for you to actually reason with any logical conclusion you can be more at peace than i.
if i can say there is no way i can have more peace than you, how could you say you have more peace then me...?



maybe you have overlooked the eastern philosophy's of enlightenment and the search for inner peace...all without the assistance from the god in the bible. i don't believe money can give anyone inner peace...
and there are plenty of other non believers who would say the same thing.
life experience has brought me to that conclusion.



this is what i was responding to...













hope for eternal life. if i may be so bold and i do not mean to disrespect you in any way nor am i insinuating you are capable of doing this.
but what is the difference between this line of thinking and that of a suicide bomber?
you did say..

if that were true and a person with such a strong conviction, as in the case of a suicide bomber, believing their faith was the right faith, what's to stop someone from doing such a horrendous act?

you do realize that in the name of religion people do things they would not normally had they figured it out for themselves.
my own mom stayed married to an abusive man, mentally not physically, for 52 yrs thinking that god will change him. she is 74 and is now finally getting what i have been saying for years...divorce him. the bible, her upbringing, her faith all pointed towards the wrongness of divorce...
i'm not only blaming her faith in god for wasting her life, because he actually controlled her with the use of fear mongering...she comes from an old way of life in cuba where women were nothing unless they were married and had children...
i could go on and on about her, but think of the amount of fear she understood as faith in god for this hope her husband would change.

listen brother, i get your compassion. i know you want to show me the light, and i appreciate it, really i do. i just wanted to make a case for the reason unbelievers understand believers as those who are morally superior, when all along in the here and now we are just that- brothers and sisters.

I get your point, yes even umbelievers can be at peace, or suicide bomber can be at peace, even a hit man can be at peace, we all have an ability to justify our actions and to condition our mind that what we are doing is correct.

Yes you are correct, faith is also a conditioner of the mind. But faith in God does no harm to anyone so I stay with that.

 

[look3467]

Very well written explanation, free spirit.

I fully understand what you're saying. My take on seeing the kingdom is as like yours in that seeing Jesus prior to His resurrection was in deed seeing the kingdom of God in the flesh.

As it were, no one prior to the resurrection could enter into the Kingdom, for the Jesus had not yet descended into hell to receive the kingdom.

Now, it sounds by the way I said it that hell somehow is the kingdom, but not so, for it was there that Jesus' kingdom was born.

Ref: MAT 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

That day is the day Jesus was crucified and upon which after, we could now enter into His kingdom, while yet in the flesh.

Having Jesus come into our lives is drinking again with Him in His kingdom, for then are we entered with Him in His death, burial and resurrection.

As you said and of which I like the way you presented it quote "when we are born our spirit is agnostic.", is precisely the way it is.
We are born in the darkness of knowledge and must be drawn by the light of knowledge.
That is why as long as we remain in the darkness, we may see the light a ways off, but to enter into the light of knowledge, one must make a move towards it.
ISA 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

The glory of God's light shown upon Him, bring light into the world but:JOH 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

By necessity? A rebirth!

Blessings, AJ

 

[Enoughie]

I can only draw from your answer that you are unwilling to make a positive logical comment, not even on the good or bad English expression used.

I'm sorry if I come off as insolent, but that is how I see it, and that is my opinion.

When you have a literary text, that does not present clear logical arguments, but rather relies a lot on metaphors and assertions that cannot be verified, you can conclude from this text almost anything you want.

You can say that this is what a passage literally says, and therefore you have to do X. But you can also say that metaphorically the same passage actually says the opposite of X. This means that you can draw absolutely any conclusion from the Bible, since the claims are not subjected to reason, and are not verifiable.

Therefore, your conclusion is just as good as any other conclusion that might be in direct contradiction to your own.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[astarath]

Enough to die for us.