How we know that there was no Flood of Noah.

[whirlingmerc]

You are going to run into a host of problems with a worldwide flood. Even the flood that @Shaul mentioned suffers from most of these problems. The icecaps have been in place for longer than man has been on the Earth. Why did they not float and get destroyed? There is no universal population bottleneck. There is no physical evidence of an event that would have definitely left physical evidence. Depending upon one's timing for the flood it was somehow ignored by quite a few civilizations.

And of course there is the problem of cooking Noah with almost any source of water.

I think the flood had a bit to do with the ice age and ice caps.
Warm waters after a MABOOL catastrophic flood even around the world plus a cooling planet would lead to a snow machine at the poles particularly the north pole. And we see the ice age heaviest near the north pole with living creatures up to the edges of the water like mastodons and mammoths which would be possible if the water was warm and land cool and covered with tons of snow. When the arctic sea did freeze over the ice age would end as the warm water at the poles cooled and the snow source would end

 

[Subduction Zone]

Again, not so fast. “Under the whole heavens” could be only referring to those particular mountains. As in “the highest [spiritual] mountains [which] are under the whole heavens”. Migration would be irrelevant because the antediluvian people had not dispersed yet. According to Genesis that happened later, after the Tower of Babel.

Read it again. Genesis says that people were dispersed before Babel. Babel was merely one settlement.

But then it is a story book and story books are not known for their consistency.

 

[whirlingmerc]

The rainbow is another problem. There are fossilized raindrops that tell us that rain always existed on the Earth. Rain means rainbows.

Fossils made during the flood prove the point.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Read it again. Genesis says that people were dispersed before Babel. Babel was merely one settlement.

But then it is a story book and story books are not known for their consistency.

People were not dispersed before Babel

from Bible.org
quote
This leads right into the Tower of Babel account in 11:1-9. In 11:1, Moses writes, “Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words.” After the flood, the whole earth spoke the same language. But man’s habitual sin brought about the language barrier.

In 11:2, we read these fateful words: “It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there.” The word “east” is intentionally alluded to in the Scriptures, to let us know that a person or group is moving contrary to God’s will. In the Genesis narratives, when man goes “east,” he leaves the land of blessing (Eden and the Promised Land) and goes to a land where the greatest of his hopes will turn to ruin (Babylon and Sodom).19
unquote

In 11:8-9, Moses writes, “So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city

Babel” means “confusion” in Hebrew, and “the gate of gods” in Babylonian
Shinar shows up later in the book of Daniel where a King is making everyone bow down before an idol

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think the flood had a bit to do with the ice age and ice caps.
Warm waters after a MABOOL catastrophic flood even around the world plus a cooling planet would lead to a snow machine at the poles particularly the north pole. And we see the ice age heaviest near the north pole with living creatures up to the edges of the water like mastodons and mammoths which would be possible if the water was warm and land cool and covered with tons of snow. When the arctic sea did freeze over the ice age would end as the warm water at the poles cooled and the snow source would end

A wild grasping at straws. We know how old the icecaps are. They can be dated by several means that reinforce each other. They are not just a few thousand years old:

Ice core - Wikipedia

 

[Subduction Zone]

Fossils made during the flood prove the point.

No, fossils prove that there was no flood. You do not know enough of fossils to make this claim.

Must run for now. More details later.

 

[Subduction Zone]

People were not dispersed before Babel

from Bible.org
quote
This leads right into the Tower of Babel account in 11:1-9. In 11:1, Moses writes, “Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words.” After the flood, the whole earth spoke the same language. But man’s habitual sin brought about the language barrier.

First off Moses was another mythical figure, but even taken literally that does not support your claim. In fact if anything it supports mine. Please note the use of the words "whole earth" that you earlier used to say meant the entire Earth was flooded.

In 11:2, we read these fateful words: “It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there.” The word “east” is intentionally alluded to in the Scriptures, to let us know that a person or group is moving contrary to God’s will. In the Genesis narratives, when man goes “east,” he leaves the land of blessing (Eden and the Promised Land) and goes to a land where the greatest of his hopes will turn to ruin (Babylon and Sodom).19
unquote

In 11:8-9, Moses writes, “So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city

Bible means confusion and fits scattering
Shinar shows up later in the book of Daniel

And that is after the split up of the three brothers mentioned earlier. Again, must run. Bye.

 

[whirlingmerc]

First off Moses was another mythical figure, but even taken literally that does not support your claim. In fact if anything it supports mine. Please note the use of the words "whole earth" that you earlier used to say meant the entire Earth was flooded.



And that is after the split up of the three brothers mentioned earlier. Again, must run. Bye.

Babel was in the plain of Shinar
not a problem
They came to a plain called Shinar and then built a city called Babel there

 

[whirlingmerc]

No, fossils prove that there was no flood. You do not know enough of fossils to make this claim.

Must run for now. More details later.

Actually the flood is the perfect way to make fossils
To make a fossil you need dead things, lots of water and lots of mud

fossil hat made in a tasmania mine over 50 years

 

[Shaul]

That is a lame excuse at best. One can analyze claims using the sciences to see if there is any merit to them or not. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt of setting the details of the flood. You may believe that it happened, but you should really try to see why we know that it did not happen.

One question, can your version of God lie?

I think you misunderstood. There is no problem with analyzing Torah using science. But do so without coming to it with preconceived notions and insisting on your own interpretations of it. That would be unscientific.

I could expand on why interpretating the “highest mountains” applies to those the land of Israel (the highest spiritually) instead of the highest physically, if you would like.

I do get it that if this interpretation is correct it does great damage to the argument that the Flood didn’t happen because it didn’t cover the highest physical mountains of the world. Nonetheless it is a valid alternative interpretation.

I don’t have a version of G-d. There is only one G-d. No, He doesn’t lie. But science is certainly fallible.

 

[Skwim]

Correct!
A local flood was not claimed in the account and would not work as the waters covered“all the high hills under the whole heaven.” You might expect from the data 'billions of dead things buried in rock layers played down by water all over the earth" and what do we see? 'billions of dead things buried in rock layers played down by water all over the earth"

Errr. . . . . 84% of the 51 Bible checked say "mountains."

.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Errr. . . . . 84% of the 51 Bible checked say "mountains."

.

The waters were about Goliath's height above the highest 'hill' so if Goliath was standing on one he was still fish food

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The waters were about Goliath's height above the highest 'hill' so if Goliath was standing on one he was still fish food

I find Genesis 7:19-20 says ' mountains '......
In the Hebrew at verse 19 it reads ' mountains'. 15 cubits above the ' mountains '.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I find Genesis 7:19-20 says ' mountains '......
In the Hebrew at verse 19 it reads ' mountains'. 15 cubits above the ' mountains '.

I looked it up on net bible
greek - 'har' could be either hill, mount or mountain
hebrew - google translate says mountains (and the word is qualified by high

I think mount of Olives might use that word or Mount Zion might but they would not be high mountains or all the high mountains under heaven
so I lean toward all the high mountains under the
whole heaven' being more inclusive than
just 'the land' of Israel

also even the birds needed saving suggesting flying away to safety wouldn't cut it

 

[whirlingmerc]

No, fossils prove that there was no flood. You do not know enough of fossils to make this claim.

Must run for now. More details later.

I do have 4 degrees in engineering and heard the cases from both sides and frankly
flood geology, flood made fossils, flood cause short ice age all make sense

Soft tissues fossils like fossil jellyfish or fossils of animals eating each other or fossils of animals giving birth or even fossils of both plant and animal cutting across so called 'millions of years' of geological layers suggest rapid burial in a flood event the better explaination.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I think the flood had a bit to do with the ice age and ice caps.
Warm waters after a MABOOL catastrophic flood even around the world plus a cooling planet would lead to a snow machine at the poles particularly the north pole. And we see the ice age heaviest near the north pole with living creatures up to the edges of the water like mastodons and mammoths which would be possible if the water was warm and land cool and covered with tons of snow. When the arctic sea did freeze over the ice age would end as the warm water at the poles cooled and the snow source would end

Ironically the people of Noah's day didn't believe it either.

Isn't it interesting many scientist believe in a worldwide flood on Mars where there is hardly any water
and only some believe in one on earth where there is enough water to cover the planet to 2 miles if smoothed

 

[Jose Fly]

Not really... mountains could''ve been lower and during the catastrophic motion of the plates at the time, parts of the plates could ram another plate and life mountains higher

Really? How long ago and over what approximate time period (e.g., 1 month, 1 year, 10 years)?

 

[whirlingmerc]

Really? How long ago and over what approximate time period (e.g., 1 month, 1 year, 10 years)?

The flood was about 1 year in the Bible

Plate movements catastrophically fast then. Kind of like a ball hitting the racked pool balls... they move fast at fist and then slow down to what they are now

 

[Jose Fly]

The flood was about 1 year in the Bible

So being an engineer, surely you appreciate the problems with moving entire continental plates over large distances in such a short time, right? Also, batholith mountain ranges are igneous, which means they need to both form and cool/harden all in that year.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[gnostic]

What makes you think that the water needs to cover the whole earth?

For instance, the water may concentrate in one place first then another and another. Humans don't know all kinds of catastrophes to tell. What Noah saw is the place near him.

You really don’t have concept of sea level.

For it to cover the highest mountains, it would change the sea level for millennia. Much of the earth would still be underwater today, if it reach the height of Everest.

Even if the Genesis Flood covered much shorter mountains, like Ararat (Greater Ararat is currently over 5000 metres, Lesser Ararat, just 4000 metres), the Egypt and the Levant would still be completely covered today.

Sea level can change over periods of time, these changes would be over some tens of metres, not thousands of metres, which would be required to cover these high mountains.

Some have argue that the Flood was the result of the melting ice sheets from the last Ice Age, but that’s not true. There are lot of misconceptions about the ice age, and most of it come from creationist camp, attempting distort the evidences.

Unlike more ancient Ice Ages than the Quaternary Glaciation, the Quaternary Glaciation was as severe as previous glaciations, because only certainly regions of northern of Europe, Asia and North America were covered in ice sheets, but larger regions saw no ice sheets throughout the Quaternary Glaciation. There were pockets of ice sheets covering some mountain ranges (Alps, Caucasus, Hindu Kush, Himalayas, Andes, etc), but that’s only because of the high altitudes in these regions. Regions like the Italy (except the Alps), France, Spain, Hungary, the Balkan, Egypt, the Levant, Mesopotamia, etc, saw absolutely no ice sheets.

The last maximum extent of the Quaternary Glaciation, occurred 20,000 years ago. The amount of ice melted since then to the present, have only caused the net sea level to rise only 125 metres.

That rise is certainly not high enough to cover mountains let alone Ararat’s 2nd highest peak (Lesser Ararat).

And the Genesis Flood, supposedly took place between 2400 and 2100 BCE, depending on the estimates of years indicated in the Old Testament (eg Genesis genealogy, Exodus 12:40-41 and 1 Kings 6:1).

But the things the Levantine, Egyptian and Sumerian-Akkadian civilisations saw no such destruction as described in Genesis, and all archaeological evidences showed none of their cities swallowed by water, at the same time.

Byblos for instance, was a small town built in the coast 5000 BCE, and later became thriving and growing city since the start of Bronze Age in 3000 BCE, and remained inhabited today.

Not once has Byblos being destroyed and lay abandoned. At no point in time, have Byblos being destroyed in the 3rd millennium BCE.

If Everest, or even just Ararat were covered by the Flood, then Byblos would remain underwater today.

Sea levels don’t changed by kilometres, because that what it would take for Noah’s Ark to land on and disembark from Ararat.

Genesis clearly stated that it took 150 days to covered the highest mountains, and around another 150 days before Noah left the ark.

But as I stated about 125 metres rise, since the last maximum extent of glaciation, there are clearly not enough water for Genesis Flood to occur as it claim.

Where did all that water come from? Where did it disappear?

Creationists cannot answer that, except that God did it, is not really logical, nor realistic answers, and certainly not scientific ones.