I and the father are one.

[Colt]

Similar expressions are found by Imams (a).

Imams aren't able to return from the death of their body on their own volition. The Son of God incarnate returned and appeared to a number of different people before returning to heaven as sovereign Lord and God.

 

[Fool]

The following is from a Shiite brother (not me):

Salaam Aleikum,

Famous Gospel verse from John 10:30

I and the Father are one.

But it does not stop here, the most crucial part is the next verses where Jesus (عليه السلام) will clarify what does he mean by it.

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

- Jesus (عليه السلام) was referring to Psalms 82:6

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Here You are Gods and Sons of the Most High does not mean literal as Gods or that God literal Sons. Rather this means that they are agents of God, who represent the message and the commandments and the way that God have chosen for humankind. Their work/actions would be as what God want them to work/act.

I and The Father are one

This is equivalent in the Qur'an when God says:

He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. 4:80

Your friend was not misguided nor was he misled, nor does he speak out of personal desire. It is but an inspiration being inspired. 53:2-4

Another interesting to notice is the how Jews reacted on the matter. They almost right away took the stone and wanted to kill him, because they thought that he is saying that Jesus and God are One in Essence. Jesus denies it and explained them by referring the psalms 82:6 which is understood by jews clearly.

Qur'an want to clarify and make sure that Psalms 82:6 does not mean to take it literally but as in figurative:

Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. 23:91

monism is the ideal. so then the creator creates and everything is it's begotten. that isn't a leap of faith. it's like a corpuscle, cell in the body of yourself is in the universe and the universe in it.

the universe itself isn't created because it is still creating.

 

[Link]

Imams aren't able to return from the death of their body on their own volition. The Son of God incarnate returned and appeared to a number of different people before returning to heaven as sovereign Lord and God.

From what I understand, Gospels is saying while it looked like he died because of wounds he took and being buried for 3 days, Isa (a) decides when to die, and didn't die but appeared outwardly that he did and remained the light of the world till he left to heaven "I am the light of the world so long as I'm in this world". I don't think there was a 3 day break with no light or holy spirit nor that someone replaced him as the light during that time. So he was alive and never died in truth though the outward wounds look like he was crucified and killed and the burial made it appear so.

Also, while Isa (a) saying he decides in reality, he does what God wishes, which is the other side. He doesn't will unless God wills.

Also, if you didn't know, Imams (a) per hadiths are coming back.

 

[Colt]

From what I understand, Gospels is saying while it looked like he died because of wounds he took and being buried for 3 days, Isa (a) decides when to die, and didn't die but appeared outwardly that he did and remained the light of the world till he left to heaven "I am the light of the world so long as I'm in this world". I don't think there was a 3 day break with no light or holy spirit nor that someone replaced him as the light during that time. So he was alive and never died in truth though the outward wounds look like he was crucified and killed and the burial made it appear so.

Also, while Isa (a) saying he decides in reality, he does what God wishes, which is the other side. He doesn't will unless God wills.

Also, if you didn't know, Imams (a) per hadiths are coming back.

Thats not what the Gospels say at ALL! But often Muslims believe many things about Jesus but not the resurrection. So they try to explain it in a way that fits their disbelief.

 

[Link]

Thats not what the Gospels say at ALL! But often Muslims believe many things about Jesus but not the resurrection. So they try to explain it in a way that fits their disbelief.

I think Quran and Gospels are compatible in the way I explained it.

 

[Colt]

I think Quran and Gospels are compatible in the way I explained it.

The Quran and the story of the resurrection in the Bible aren't compatible. An apple isn't an orange no matter how much twisting and rationalizing an explanation can be.

 

[YoursTrue]

There are a number of places that allude to the divinity of Jesus.


Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. 11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.

This was a private conversation with his apostles. Was he misleading them?

The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”

Only the mortal body of the Son died, not the Son himself. He waited a few days a reappeared in a new form.

I have no doubt that when Jesus said whoever sees him has seen the Father, he was not saying he was the Father, but was so close to Him that as the Son he was in the closest relationship with Him and whoever rejects the son rejects the father, no matter what they say to the contrary.

 

[paradox]

Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. 23:91

When Jesus was put on the cross, among his last words was "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?"
Matthew 27:46

In fact with these words Jesus was referring to Psalms 22:2 which starts with:

My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?

and ends with Psalms 22:31 which say:

that he hath done this

God did this, it was his will and plan to take Jesus.

 

[Colt]

I have no doubt that when Jesus said whoever sees him has seen the Father, he was not saying he was the Father, but was so close to Him that as the Son he was in the closest relationship with Him and whoever rejects the son rejects the father, no matter what they say to the contrary.

As a divine being he is part of God.

 

[Link]

I have no doubt that when Jesus said whoever sees him has seen the Father, he was not saying he was the Father, but was so close to Him that as the Son he was in the closest relationship with Him and whoever rejects the son rejects the father, no matter what they say to the contrary.

It's also because he is the light of God and means to hold on to God.

 

[TreeOfLife]

T

I think it's clear, that trinity was never meant by Jesus by Jesus' own words here. People were per his own words taking his words out of context, while, they should be understood the same way Jews understood other words not to mean polytheistic things.

Is not the trinity John 14.20

 

[viole]

The following is from a Shiite brother (not me):

Salaam Aleikum,

Famous Gospel verse from John 10:30

I and the Father are one.

But it does not stop here, the most crucial part is the next verses where Jesus (عليه السلام) will clarify what does he mean by it.

Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

- Jesus (عليه السلام) was referring to Psalms 82:6

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

Here You are Gods and Sons of the Most High does not mean literal as Gods or that God literal Sons. Rather this means that they are agents of God, who represent the message and the commandments and the way that God have chosen for humankind. Their work/actions would be as what God want them to work/act.

I and The Father are one

This is equivalent in the Qur'an when God says:

He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. 4:80

Your friend was not misguided nor was he misled, nor does he speak out of personal desire. It is but an inspiration being inspired. 53:2-4

Another interesting to notice is the how Jews reacted on the matter. They almost right away took the stone and wanted to kill him, because they thought that he is saying that Jesus and God are One in Essence. Jesus denies it and explained them by referring the psalms 82:6 which is understood by jews clearly.

Qur'an want to clarify and make sure that Psalms 82:6 does not mean to take it literally but as in figurative:

Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. 23:91

Theoretically, it should be only 2/3.

ciao

- viole

 

[Link]

yes, the spirit indwelling is both The Father and Jesus, this is what I hear Christians call life "In Christ". It's still something which can be a blessing or a curse depending on the details which are omitted. People assume that life in Christ with The Father is life eternal with God. I think this assumption is a mistake.

Sure, and Moses too was possessed by a demon and got his powers from him as Pharaoh rights were trampled over.

 

[dybmh]

Sure, and Moses too was possessed by a demon and got his powers from him as Pharaoh rights were trampled over.

You're welcome to bring scriptural quotes in support of this. If you find any let me know.

 

[Link]

You're welcome to bring scriptural quotes in support of this. If you find any let me know.

Anything goes approach.

 

[dybmh]

Anything goes approach.

Exodus 3:15

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.

ט ווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:​

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is known as YHVH, not "The Father"

Exodus 7:8-10

8 The Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,

ח וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהֹוָ֔ה אֶל־משֶׁ֥ה וְאֶל־אַֽהֲרֹ֖ן לֵאמֹֽר

9"When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, 'Provide a sign for yourselves,' you shall say to Aaron, 'Take your staff, [and] cast [it] before Pharaoh; it will become a serpent.' "

ט כִּי֩ יְדַבֵּ֨ר אֲלֵכֶ֤ם פַּרְעֹה֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר תְּנ֥וּ לָכֶ֖ם מוֹפֵ֑ת וְאָֽמַרְתָּ֣ אֶל־אַֽהֲרֹ֗ן קַ֧ח אֶת־מַטְּךָ֛ וְהַשְׁלֵ֥ךְ לִפְנֵֽי־פַרְעֹ֖ה יְהִ֥י לְתַנִּֽין

10 [Thereupon,] Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and they did so, as the Lord had commanded; Aaron cast his staff before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

י וַיָּבֹ֨א משֶׁ֤ה וְאַֽהֲרֹן֙ אֶל־פַּרְעֹ֔ה וַיַּ֣עֲשׂוּ כֵ֔ן כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֖ר צִוָּ֣ה יְהֹוָ֑ה וַיַּשְׁלֵ֨ךְ אַֽהֲרֹ֜ן אֶת־מַטֵּ֗הוּ לִפְנֵ֥י פַרְעֹ֛ה וְלִפְנֵ֥י עֲבָדָ֖יו וַיְהִ֥י לְתַנִּֽין
​

Aaron and Moses confronted Pharaoh and did precisely what YHVH told them to do.

 

[Link]

Exodus 3:15

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.

ט ווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:​

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is known as YHVH, not "The Father"

Exodus 7:8-10

8 The Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,

ח וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהֹוָ֔ה אֶל־משֶׁ֥ה וְאֶל־אַֽהֲרֹ֖ן לֵאמֹֽר

9"When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, 'Provide a sign for yourselves,' you shall say to Aaron, 'Take your staff, [and] cast [it] before Pharaoh; it will become a serpent.' "

ט כִּי֩ יְדַבֵּ֨ר אֲלֵכֶ֤ם פַּרְעֹה֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר תְּנ֥וּ לָכֶ֖ם מוֹפֵ֑ת וְאָֽמַרְתָּ֣ אֶל־אַֽהֲרֹ֗ן קַ֧ח אֶת־מַטְּךָ֛ וְהַשְׁלֵ֥ךְ לִפְנֵֽי־פַרְעֹ֖ה יְהִ֥י לְתַנִּֽין

10 [Thereupon,] Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and they did so, as the Lord had commanded; Aaron cast his staff before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

י וַיָּבֹ֨א משֶׁ֤ה וְאַֽהֲרֹן֙ אֶל־פַּרְעֹ֔ה וַיַּ֣עֲשׂוּ כֵ֔ן כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֖ר צִוָּ֣ה יְהֹוָ֑ה וַיַּשְׁלֵ֨ךְ אַֽהֲרֹ֜ן אֶת־מַטֵּ֗הוּ לִפְנֵ֥י פַרְעֹ֛ה וְלִפְנֵ֥י עֲבָדָ֖יו וַיְהִ֥י לְתַנִּֽין
​

Aaron and Moses confronted Pharaoh and did precisely what YHVH told them to do.

Sure, but that God is a Demon, just like the father of Jesus is a demon. Prove me otherwise.

 

[dybmh]

Sure, but that God is a Demon, just like the father of Jesus is a demon. Prove me otherwise.

Even if it was a demon, there's no scripture that says Moses and the Demon are one.

 

[Link]

Even if it was a demon, there's no scripture that says Moses and the Demon are one.

What's your point?

 

[dybmh]

What's your point?

Post#78 & It's very difficult to claim ambiguity in the Torah regarding Moses' relationship with God.