I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things

[ppp]

That is a contradiction.

God truthfully tells me that I am going to choose red.
I decide to test my free will and attempt to choose blue.
If I cannot choose blue, then I have no free will.
If I can choose blue, then God is not omniscient.

The contradiction is the juxtaposition of omniscience and freewill. They are incompatible.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God truthfully tells me that I am going to choose red.
I decide to test my free will and attempt to choose blue.
If I cannot choose blue, then I have no free will.
If I can choose blue, then God is not omniscient.

The contradiction is the juxtaposition of omniscience and freewill. They are incompatible.

Free-will is not violated unless you are unable to choose what you want to choose.

You say "If I cannot choose blue, then I have no free will".
That is a lie. You have already said that G-d knows that you will choose red, of your own free-will.
..or are you saying that G-d knows you will choose red because "G-d says so" ?

 

[ppp]

Free-will is not violated unless you are unable to choose what you want to choose.

You say "If I cannot choose blue, then I have no free will".
That is a lie. You have already said that G-d knows that you will choose red, of your own free-will.
..or are you saying that G-d knows you will choose red because "G-d says so" ?

6:45 am: God tells me that I will choose to wear a red shirt today.
7:00 am: I ponder over breakfast if I have free will
7:15 am: I decide to test my ability to freely choose.
7:20 am: I choose to wear the blue shirt. And to destroy the red shirt.

Can I put on the the blue shirt?
Can I destroy the red shirt without ever choosing to put it on in any sense?

7:30 am: ??? What happens?

 

[Wildswanderer]

He does not because He does not want to.
If He did there would be no atheists.

If God doesn't talk to us then our faith is in vain. Because the entire Bible is the story of God's communication with man.

 

[Wildswanderer]

6:45 am: God tells me that I will choose to wear a red shirt today.
7:00 am: I ponder over breakfast if I have free will
7:15 am: I decide to test my ability to freely choose.
7:20 am: I choose to wear the blue shirt. And to destroy the red shirt.

Can I put on the the blue shirt?
Can I destroy the red shirt without ever choosing to put it on in any sense?

7:30 am: ??? What happens?

You do not understand... The possibility of choosing the other shirt exists for you, it's just that God knows which one you will choose.
God doesn't cause you to choose one or the other.

 

[ppp]

You do not understand... The possibility of choosing the other shirt exists for you, it's just that God knows which one you will choose.
God doesn't cause you to choose one or the other.

I am not talking about God _causing_ my choice. I am talking about omniscience. If God tells me (presumably truthful) that he knows I will where the red shirt, can I then exercise my free will and wear the blue shirt?

It is either yes or no.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I am not talking about God _causing_ my choice. I am talking about omniscience. If God tells me (presumably truthful) that he knows I will where the red shirt, can I then exercise my free will and wear the blue shirt?

It is either yes or no.

I doubt it. Unless it's a test. It's like Jesus saying to Peter that Peter would deny him three times, apparently that was not debatable. Peter said he would never but Jesus knew his real nature.

 

[ppp]

I doubt it. Unless it's a test. It's like Jesus saying to Peter that Peter would deny him three times, apparently that was not debatable. Peter said he would never but Jesus knew his real nature.

If the answer is no, bye-bye free will

 

[Wildswanderer]

If the answer is no, bye-bye free will

No, it just means God knows you better than you know yourself.
Again that's not saying he caused your choice.

 

[muhammad_isa]

6:45 am: God tells me that I will choose to wear a red shirt today.

Purely hypothetical.. G-d doesn't go around telling everybody what shirt they are going to wear

 

[ppp]

No, it just means God knows you better than you know yourself.
Again that's not saying he caused your choice.

Still not talking about cause. No matter how many times you say it. And knowing one's self has nothing to do with the situation. (Shrug) no worries.

 

[ppp]

Purely hypothetical.. G-d doesn't go around telling everybody what shirt they are going to wear

You have no solution to the issue, and you can't admit that omniscience and free will are incompatible, so you fall back on a little evasion through complaining about something irrelevant.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Still not talking about cause. No matter how many times you say it. And knowing one's self has nothing to do with the situation. (Shrug) no worries.

Then I don't see what your point is... If God knows without a doubt that you would do something it's because he knows you will choose that thing. That does not negate your free will to choose.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If the answer is no, bye-bye free will

That has already been explained to you.

Are you claiming that you are forced to wear the red shirt?
It is a lie. You will wear the red shirt because that is what you freely choose.

Let's say that G-d tells somebody that they are destined for heaven..
Does that mean that G-d is forcing that person to be righteous? No. It is their choice.

 

[ppp]

Then I don't see what your point is... If God knows without a doubt that you would do something it's because he knows you will choose that thing. That does not negate your free will to choose.

That's okay. I laid out the sequence of actions and the question. If you don't understand it, don't worry about it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..you can't admit that omniscience and free will are incompatible,.

No, I can't .. because it is a lie.
A lie based on deception and false logic.
..as many so-called paradoxes are.

 

[ppp]

That has already been explained to you.

Are you claiming that you are forced to wear the red shirt?
It is a lie. You will wear the red shirt because that is what you freely choose.

Let's say that G-d tells somebody that they are destined for heaven..
Does that mean that G-d is forcing that person to be righteous? No. It is their choice.

You're stuck on your notion of force. I outlined a sequence of actions and asked what the result would be. At no time have you attempted to actually answer that question. You simply start shouting about forcing people, which I have not even implied.

 

[ppp]

No, I can't .. because it is a lie.
A lie based on deception and false logic.
..as many so-called paradoxes are.

Cool. Identify the specific text where I lied.

 

[muhammad_isa]

At no time have you attempted to actually answer that question..

Another lie.
It is you that is ignoring questions..

Are you claiming that G-d forces you to wear a red shirt, because he tells you that you will?

The answers to your question is rhetorical.
It is obvious that you MUST choose the red shirt .. because you have said that that is what G-d knows you will choose.

I say "must" .. but why must?
..because G-d knows what you will choose of your own free-will.
..and not because you are not able to choose freely.
..and that is what you are doing .. implying that you MUST due to loss of free-will.
Which is false by definition. G-d knows what you WANT to choose.
..and G-d told you what you will WANT to choose.
..hence no loss of free-will.

 

[ppp]

Another lie.

Well, if I am a liar and there's no point in continuing the conversation.