"I . . . CREATE EVIL" But why?

[JustWondering]

Let me say again:
When you say 'God is evil', you are actually saying 'God is not doing (or has done) this creation thing they way I think he should (or should have), were he a good God.'

In effect, you are postulating that your view of good and evil is the right view of good and evil, and any sane person can see that...so why can't God?

To that, I again ask:
Does the clay say to the potter:
What are you making?

We are the clay. Rational, reasoning, thinking clay. We CAN tell the potter that he's doing a bad job. And you ARE telling him that. That is not the point. The question isn't asking does the clay actually talk to the potter? Can clay really do that?
It is asking whether you are putting yourself in the creation position, or the creator position.

If you wish to be the creator, then don't ask whether God is creating evil, or is evil. You are the creator, not God. If you wish to be the creation, then don't ask why God is creating evil. You do not know evil, nor do you know good, so how can you say what is being created?

One does not see a house from the foundation. Nor does one see it from the outside. Do not ask why a window is there, or why the door is here. Be in the house. That is all that is asked of the creation.
Anything else, and the creation becomes the creator.

Thats great and all but your missing the fact that we were created to be aggresively independent only so we can be punished for not being mindlessly obiendient. According to you god created us with the capability to think for ourselves but considers us thinking for ourselves as the gravest sin anyone could ever commit. Its absurd. On top of that you expect us to believe this being is kind and loving after it abandoned us and tortures us? To be a true believer in this nonsense requires turning your brain off and throwing common sense/reason out the window. No thanks.

 

[JustWondering]

Did you read this?

We are the clay. Rational, reasoning, thinking clay. We CAN tell the potter that he's doing a bad job. And you ARE telling him that. That is not the point. The question isn't asking does the clay actually talk to the potter? Can clay really do that?
It is asking whether you are putting yourself in the creation position, or the creator position.

Ever put yourself in the 'creation' position before? I'm guessing not.

So children that die of starvation and cancer had it coming to them? Just part of gods master plan I guess.

 

[Skwim]

Thats great and all but your missing the fact that we were created to be aggresively independent only so we can be punished for not being mindlessly obiendient. According to you god created us with the capability to think for ourselves but considers us thinking for ourselves as the gravest sin anyone could ever commit. Its absurd. On top of that you expect us to believe this being is kind and loving after it abandoned us and tortures us? To be a true believer in this nonsense requires turning your brain off and throwing common sense/reason out the window. No thanks.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Thats great and all but your missing the fact that we were created to be aggresively independent only so we can be punished for not being mindlessly obiendient. According to you god created us with the capability to think for ourselves but considers us thinking for ourselves as the gravest sin anyone could ever commit. Its absurd. On top of that you expect us to believe this being is kind and loving after it abandoned us and tortures us? To be a true believer in this nonsense requires turning your brain off and throwing common sense/reason out the window. No thanks.

I didn't say any of this. I said you have to put yourself in the creation position. You, having absolutely no idea what this means, have put many stereotypical labels on it, and think that these labels are the truth, when in fact, if you'd actually do it, you'd see differently.
We are aggressively independent, which is why it is very difficult for us to be in the 'creation' position. Everything about us tells us to be the creator. Control things, make things better, make things 'right'. So we try to fix the world and make it our own 'utopia'. Then we get all ****** at God when it goes all wrong, when he isn't even the one who created it in the first place. We are. We have no one to blame but ourselves. Because we are the creator. If you want to blame God, then become the creation. Let him create you. And then, if you don't like it, you can blame him all you want, and become your own creator again.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

So children that die of starvation and cancer had it coming to them? Just part of gods master plan I guess.

Irrelevant. Children dying of starvation and cancer have nothing to do with God doing or not doing something. That's just life. And the starvation part is our fault, really. How much food does the USA waste every year? How high is our obesity rate? Not enough food, please. There's plenty. It's not in the right places and that is our fault.
We have become the creators. When that happens, God is out of the picture. You're bringing God back, showing him the mess that you made and saying 'Look at what you did! You're evil and selfish'. It makes no sense. You can't have it both ways, create something and then, when it goes wrong, say God created it, so its his fault. It doesn't work like that.

 

[Ninez]

When that happens, God is out of the picture. You're bringing God back, showing him the mess that you made and saying 'Look at what you did! You're evil and selfish'.

So true, and that's EXACTLY the same thing Adam did. When he had sinned, he took no personal responsibility and instead blamed God for it. "“The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree and so I ate.” (Gen 3:12)

 

[Katzpur]

So children that die of starvation and cancer had it coming to them? Just part of gods master plan I guess.

I keep reading and re-reading strikevipreMKII's posts and trying to find where he said that. Could you help me out by actually quoting him? Thanks.

 

[JustAsking]

So true, and that's EXACTLY the same thing Adam did. When he had sinned, he took no personal responsibility and instead blamed God for it. "“The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree and so I ate.” (Gen 3:12)

So, Adam's sin was not part of God's Master Plan?

 

[PolyHedral]

So, Adam's sin was not part of God's Master Plan?

Doesn't sound like a very good Ineffable Plan, IMO.

 

[Pegg]

You're bringing God back, showing him the mess that you made and saying 'Look at what you did! You're evil and selfish'. It makes no sense. You can't have it both ways, create something and then, when it goes wrong, say God created it, so its his fault. It doesn't work like that.

When we consider that placing the blame on someone else is what Adam and Eve did when they were busted for their wrongdoing, it makes perfect sense as to why people blame God

its more evidence to me that the A&E story is not allegorical at all, but quite real.

 

[PolyHedral]

Personally, I'm blaming God (if He existed, anyway) for the fact that the world has finite resources, and thus poverty/greed/theft/starvation exists. Adam and Eve couldn't have caused that.

 

[Katzpur]

Personally, I'm blaming God (if He existed, anyway) for the fact that the world has finite resources, and thus poverty/greed/theft/starvation exists. Adam and Eve couldn't have caused that.

Honestly, how would this be God's fault? I'm not saying it's Adam's and Eve's, by the way. I'm just trying to figure our how poverty, greed, theft and starvation can be attributed to God.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

So, Adam's sin was not part of God's Master Plan?

Irrelevant. It happened. Saying it is part of a master plan, or not part of a master plan is of no consequence.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Personally, I'm blaming God (if He existed, anyway) for the fact that the world has finite resources, and thus poverty/greed/theft/starvation exists. Adam and Eve couldn't have caused that.

Who says earth's pantry has finite resources?
It is not the earth that is at fault, but distribution along with greed.

Since man can not successfully direct his step [Jeremiah 10v23]
then Rev [11v18 B] should be of comfort assuring us that God will step in and bring to ruin, not earth, but those ruining the earth.
-Ecc 1v4 B

Wasn't Adam greedy by stealing God's fruit from God's tree?
Out of all the many trees on earth, God only had one tree.
Adam had all the rest of earth's many trees.
[How many trees are on earth anyway?]

By God telling Adam not to eat from his tree, in effect God was posting a
'No Trespassing Sign' on his tree.

If you had a generous neighbor that said you can come over and take all the fruit off his fruit trees except for one tree, the neighbor would not be considered the greedy one, but rather the person disobeying the neighbor and stealing from the one forbidden tree.

Since Adam turned out to be greedy and passed down that greedy trait down to us, then Satan can capitalize on greed and tempt or lure us with materialism to also become greedy like father Adam.

 

[Skwim]

1) What's specious about it?
2) You realize this is like a Creationist demanding to know how we got here, only with "none of that specious evolution stuff," right?

It's specious because unlike evolution, which I regard as fact, free will is an illusion, with no explanatory power.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Who says earth's pantry has finite resources?
It is not the earth that is at fault, but distribution along with greed.

Um...the earth isn't growing. We have a set volume to put things in. And the density of the Earth isn't increasing. So I'd say we do have a finite amount of resources. Unless we've taken up mining asteroids or the moon.

Wasn't Adam greedy by stealing God's fruit from God's tree?
Out of all the many trees on earth, God only had one tree.
Adam had all the rest of earth's many trees.
[How many trees are on earth anyway?]

By God telling Adam not to eat from his tree, in effect God was posting a
'No Trespassing Sign' on his tree.

Greedy, no. Curious, yes. But as I said before, on other threads, taking the apple wasn't what Adam and Eve weren't corrected for, so it doesn't really matter.

If you had a generous neighbor that said you can come over and take all the fruit off his fruit trees except for one tree, the neighbor would not be considered the greedy one, but rather the person disobeying the neighbor and stealing from the one forbidden tree.

Since Adam turned out to be greedy and passed down that greedy trait down to us, then Satan can capitalize on greed and tempt or lure us with materialism to also become greedy like father Adam.

Greed is not the issue here. Blaming others, blaming things or traits or inherited characteristics is the problem. Greed is just a by-product of that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Um...the earth isn't growing. We have a set volume to put things in. And the density of the Earth isn't increasing. So I'd say we do have a finite amount of resources. Unless we've taken up mining asteroids or the moon.
Greedy, no. Curious, yes. But as I said before, on other threads, taking the apple wasn't what Adam and Eve weren't corrected for, so it doesn't really matter.
Greed is not the issue here. Blaming others, blaming things or traits or inherited characteristics is the problem. Greed is just a by-product of that.

Adam was 'corrected' for: disobedience.
Adam disobeyed God's command.
Adam becoming imperfect passed down imperfect traits or inherited characteristics to all. That is why all sin and fall short.
-Romans 5 vs12-19

During Jesus 1000-year reign over earth greed will be gone.
The root cause of greed or greedy people will be gone.
-Psalm 92v7; 37v38; Proverbs 2vs21,22; Rev 11v18 B
Jesus will have dominion from sea to sea to the ends of the earth.
-Psalm 72v8
Micah [4v4] foretold each person will have their own vine and fig tree.....
Isaiah [65v21,22] foretold each having a house and food.
Even the dessert will blossom as the rose does.
-Isa 35v1,2

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Adam was 'corrected' for: disobedience.
Adam disobeyed God's command.
Adam becoming imperfect passed down imperfect traits or inherited characteristics to all. That is why all sin and fall short.
-Romans 5 vs12-19

Then why didn't God just send Eve away the second she ate the fruit, and therefore prevent Adam becoming imperfect? And even allowing for the fact that God wanted both of them to have a choice, why didn't he just send them away the second both of them disobeyed?
Did he not know? I thought God was omniscient.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Then why didn't God just send Eve away the second she ate the fruit, and therefore prevent Adam becoming imperfect? And even allowing for the fact that God wanted both of them to have a choice, why didn't he just send them away the second both of them disobeyed?
Did he not know? I thought God was omniscient.

Adam like Eve was created as a free moral agent to choose.
With the gift of free will then God does not interfere or decide our choices.

They were told the 'day' you eat you will die.
That 'day' was not a 24hr day but a 'thousand-year day'.
In other words, no sinner could live past a thousand years.
The oldest person in the Bible died before reaching a thousand.

We can see by Jesus being perfect that when perfection and imperfection go hand in hand that perfection wins out. So if Adam would have remained obedient and retained his perfection Eve still might have been the mother of all, so to speak. Eve would have died within that thousand-year day but Adam would have continued living. Since the Bible is silent in detail the possibility exists that Adam could have been given a perfect replacement for Eve.

Remember God's purpose for A&E was to multiply and fill [not overpopulate] the earth. If God would have gotten rid of them right away we would not be here. Because of Jesus, all the damage Adam caused will be reversed during Jesus millennial reign over earth when Jesus 'as Prince of Peace' ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill starting at the time of Matthew 25vs31,32.

 

[Skwim]

I do believe in God, and I do believe evil pretty much has to exist in order for us to be able to even recognize good as "good." That's about all I'm going to say unless somebody gives me a pretty reasonable explanation of why a good God would have had to create a world in which evil was non-existant.

(Sorry about not addressing this before---I was distracted and forgot about it.)

I do believe evil pretty much has to exist in order for us to be able to even recognize good as "good."

First, as for good itself, something desirable rather than not, this arises from the simple distinction we recognize between that which is wanted and that which is unwanted. What we desire need not have a direct opposite to be good---one just as undesirable as the good is desired. Of course this would slightly alter our definition of good, freeing it from the contrast we are obligated to make in the light of all the bad that evil brings; however, I don't see this as a loss that would impact any of life's necessities.
Secondly, what would be the necessity of recognizing a good that stands in contrast to something as bad as that wrought by evil? Why would such a great good be necessary?

That's about all I'm going to say unless somebody gives me a pretty reasonable explanation of why a good God would have had to create a world in which evil was non-existant.

Perhaps because it flies in the face of what we call loving and good. If one is going to insist that this is what god is, it precludes him from doing anything that is not loving and good. Therefore, to live up to these characteristics he would have to create a world in which evil was non-existent. To not do so would disqualify him as loving and good. Of course, if you don't regard god as loving and good then there is no reason god would have had to create a world in which evil was non-existent.