If god knew.....

[strikeviperMKII]

Does anything in the Bible make any sense?

Is it supposed to?

 

[McBell]

Judge not, lest ye be Judged. For whatever standard you apply to others, the same standard will be applied to you.
This is in three of the Gospels in slightly different ways. I prefer the one from Matthew, which I paraphrased here.

But why would you refuse to judge god by his own standards instead of giving him exemption?



Wait...
That is a questions best served in it's own thread.

 

[JustWondering]

The thing is, there are many many theists who take the position that god is perfect and anything that they think paints their deity in a bad light is not gods fault.
It is either the Satans fault or mans fault.

If there is some kind of invisible sky daddy out there he has a really sick and twisted sense of humor or he could care less about us.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

And? There are plenty of people who are not my neighbor.

So if someone moves more than...what? A block away from you? If their physical residence is more than a certain distance away, a person is no longer your neighbor?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

But why would you refuse to judge god by his own standards instead of giving him exemption?



Wait...
That is a questions best served in it's own thread.

I'll make one if you want.

 

[JustWondering]

Is it supposed to?

One would think so since millions of theists hold it as the sacred word of their all-knowing, all-powerful, all-everything and the kitchen sink god.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Really?
So you are basically saying that god does not exist?
Perhaps you do not believe that god created everything?
Perhaps you agree with me that god is NOT omni-anything?

Really what?
I don't think I said that.
Do I need to believe that God created everything to believe in God?
Do I need to believe that God is omni-anything to believe in God?

 

[JustWondering]

So if someone moves more than...what? A block away from you? If their physical residence is more than a certain distance away, a person is no longer your neighbor?

More like two to three blocks.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

That makes as much sense as purposely throwing a baseball through a window and then blaming the broken window on the baseball.

You're saying God threw us at a window, and blamed the broken window on us? So if God didn't want the broken window, he shouldn't have thrown us in the first place.
I think I've followed your logic, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

One would think so since millions of theists hold it as the sacred word of their all-knowing, all-powerful, all-everything and the kitchen sink god.

I'm Roman Catholic, probably the host religion to most of the theists you're talking about. I do not hold the Bible to be the sacred word of my all-knowing, all-powerful, all-everything and the kitchen sink god.
That said, I still believe in God. Why? Because God is not any of the things listed here. The Bible does not need to be the sacred word of God for me to believe in Her.

 

[JustWondering]

You're saying God threw us at a window, and blamed the broken window on us? So if God didn't want the broken window, he shouldn't have thrown us in the first place.
I think I've followed your logic, but correct me if I'm wrong.

You got it. We did not create ourselves. We did not create the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We did not create the talking serpent. We did not convince god to leave us unattended in the presence of the tree. Even if god is not all-knowing I'm sure he knew how this scenario would play out before it happened.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

More like two to three blocks.

Oh, well that makes all the difference doesn't it? I suppose if they were a different race, ethnicity, age, social group, pay grade, job status, hair color, eye color, skin color, or anything else you want to add, that would be a problem too, wouldn't it?

 

[JustWondering]

I'm Roman Catholic, probably the host religion to most of the theists you're talking about. I do not hold the Bible to be the sacred word of my all-knowing, all-powerful, all-everything and the kitchen sink god.
That said, I still believe in God. Why? Because God is not any of the things listed here. The Bible does not need to be the sacred word of God for me to believe in Her.

Your stance is certainly more rational than that of the typical Christian, IMO. But if you do not recognize the bible as an accurate account of god and his will can you really call yourself a Christian?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

You got it. We did not create ourselves. We did not create the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We did not create the talking serpent. We did not convince god to leave us unattended in the presence of the tree. Even if god is not all-knowing I'm sure he knew how this scenario would play out before it happened.

But we did eat the fruit, didn't we? After we did that, what else did we do? We hid. Then, when we were found, what else did we do? The man blamed it on the woman, the woman blamed it on the snake. Doesn't that sound like blaming the broken window on the baseball?
No, wait a second. God created that tree, didn't he? And the snake, too. He wasn't around, and wasn't there to tell us it was bad to eat from the tree. He wasn't around to stop us.
So let's not blame everything else, let's blame God. It was his fault. He started this whole charade.
Yet, we are still the ones who ate from the tree, even though we were told not to. Whether God really wanted us not to eat from it, or whether the snake did...what does that matter. We ate the fruit from the tree. We were told not to, but we did.
So who is at fault here? Does that even matter? Let's not blame the broken window on the baseball, shall we? God didn't throw the baseball. The snake didn't throw the baseball, the tree didn't either. We did. We threw the baseball by eating the fruit.

 

[JustWondering]

Oh, well that makes all the difference doesn't it? I suppose if they were a different race, ethnicity, age, social group, pay grade, job status, hair color, eye color, skin color, or anything else you want to add, that would be a problem too, wouldn't it?

I think the wording is confusing. Why didn't they just say love your fellow man as you love yourself? This came up before in another thread and someone said that in the orginal Hebrew text neighbor referred to Hebrews not everyone. I don't know if that is true or not.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Your stance is certainly more rational than that of the typical Christian, IMO. But if you do not recognize the bible as an accurate account of god and his will can you really call yourself a Christian?

By christian, do you mean that I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ? (The one portrayed in the Bible, at least.)
Is that is your definition, then I do consider myself a christian.

 

[JustWondering]

But we did eat the fruit, didn't we?

Would it be realistic to bring a puppy home with you, leave it alone in a room with a nice juicy steak left out where it can get to it and honestly expect the puppy to leave the steak alone? Can the puppy really be considered having free will and the choice not to eat the steak? Perhaps the steak should not have been left out? Perhaps the puppy should have been trained first? If the first Humans did not behave as the creator intended them to behave is it really the creations fault? Even if humanity is at fault the god that put them in that situation bears some of the responsibility since he/she/it allowed it to happen in the first place.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Would it be realistic to bring a puppy home with you, leave it alone in a room with a nice juicy steak left out where it can get to it and honestly expect the puppy to leave the steak alone? Can the puppy really be considered having free will and the choice not to eat the steak? Perhaps the steak should not have been left out? Perhaps the puppy should have been trained first? If the first Humans did not behave as the creator intended them to behave is it really the creations fault? Even if humanity is at fault the god that put them in that situation bears some of the responsibility since he/she/it allowed it to happen in the first place.

Is it realistic? Is it within the realm of possibility, of course it is. The puppy could chose not to eat the steak. Is the possibility slim? Yes. But still, it could happen.
Did God really intend us to obey him? If that were so, we would not have eaten the fruit. Are you honestly suggesting that God didn't know what he was doing?
Oh, damn, they ate the fruit. I guess I got those neurotransmitter levels wrong. Was it seratonin that was supposed to be higher? Melatonin? I forget.
Yeah, that's possible for an all-knowing being.
No, the creation behaved exactly as the creation should have behaved. Because the creation chose to behave that way. Did you miss that part? We chose to eat the fruit. Not because we were hungry, not because instinct compelled us to do so. But because we chose to eat it. Free will. We could have chosen not to eat it. But we didn't.
So, let's stop blaming the steak for making the puppy hungry. Let's stop blaming the baseball for the broken window.
We chose to eat the fruit. Can we blame God, yes. Can we blame the snake, yes. Can we blame the fruit, yes. Should we? Should we blame even ourselves?

 

[Blackdog22]

Is it realistic? Is it within the realm of possibility, of course it is. The puppy could chose not to eat the steak. Is the possibility slim? Yes. But still, it could happen.

The fact is the puppy doesn't understand english. Much as Adam and Eve didn't understand the difference between right and wrong "before" eating the apple. Did we decide to create ourselves without the ability to understand what was right or wrong? Think about the implications of that and what that means. Before you respond.... Really.... Think about it...

Did God really intend us to obey him? If that were so, we would not have eaten the fruit. Are you honestly suggesting that God didn't know what he was doing?
Oh, damn, they ate the fruit. I guess I got those neurotransmitter levels wrong. Was it seratonin that was supposed to be higher? Melatonin? I forget.

Yeah exactly. God wouldn't of messed up. So he did throw the baseball. He knew fully well how we would respond to the surrounding environment and he had preplanned a punishment for us that is the equivalent of the US nuking the entire world for some guy named Bill killing an Eagle in Asia somewhere. This is rational to you? :clap

No, the creation behaved exactly as the creation should have behaved. Because the creation chose to behave that way. Did you miss that part? We chose to eat the fruit. Not because we were hungry, not because instinct compelled us to do so. But because we chose to eat it. Free will. We could have chosen not to eat it. But we didn't.
So, let's stop blaming the steak for making the puppy hungry. Let's stop blaming the baseball for the broken window.

Choice comes from knowledge. We had no knowledge of what was right or wrong. God made the Earth, God made 2 brainless humans, God made the snake, God ran away, God created the tree, God created us with the ability to succomb to temptation, God created man with an inherent weakness to succomb to a womans desire. Yet because we were just there responding to our environment in the only way we knew how you think were at fault? Brainwashed much? Going to a meeting that tells you were in the wrong 1 to 2 times a week would imply you are in fact brainwashed and therefore unable to hold any logical conversation. Drop the Church and the Bible for 5 years, start thinking for yourself, make up your mind, then come talk to us.

Of course seeing as I am talking to a guy that believes in talking snakes and powerful apples, but thinks the Bible isn't really Gods word, makes your arguments pretty ignorable by both sides Christian and Atheist alike.

 

[search the scriptures]

justwondering: " We did not create ourselves. We did not create the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We did not create the talking serpent."

" We did not create ourselves"
True

"We did not create the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
God did not force anyone to eat the fruit thereof but rather laid down the law against such a thing..

"We did not create the talking serpent."
True.. god did not make him to deceive, nor did he force him to deceive man.

just wondering: "We did not convince god to leave us unattended in the presence of the tree."

when you break a law is the cop supposed to stop you beforehand or catch you after/during the fact? he would have messed with our freewill... he already told adam he would die for sure if he eats... and adam did as he willed

juswondering: " Even if god is not all-knowing I'm sure he knew how this scenario would play out before it happened."

He did.. with freewill and law there will always be some to break the law. if there was no law than the there would be more chaos due to no consequences for actions.

you have been under law your whole life... do you want god to force you to do everything? especially if you desire to do otherwise? talk about robots in slavery