If money is the root of all evil.............

[McBell]

Agreeing with Honest Joe, the actual quote says the love of money is the root of evil.

As an ex-conservative I have a few thoughts on this:

Conservatives seem to generally feel that generosity is very good, but that it should be done individually or via non-governmental groups. If I recall correctly, a study somewhere at sometime showed that conservatives give either a higher percentage of money or more money on average than liberals. I forget which. And I'm too lazy to google it at the moment. I realize this is the equivalent of offering chocolate pudding cups as evidence. Okay, that's not even closely equivalent. But I'm staring at a pudding cup my cat knocked over, and I'm a little irritated at how far the pudding splattered, so you get to read the inane contents of my brain at 3:38 p.m. CT.

Of course, there are myriad problems with hoping people will be individually generous....but that's another discussion.

Yes, it is most interesting how they are all for giving money on an individual claim it on taxes way and not in a governmental way.

 

[McBell]

I'm assuming you think you're referring to a biblical teaching. If you are, you're wrong. The Bible never says that money is the root of all evil. It says the love of money is the root of all evil.

And I still disagree with it.
The best example is Adam and Eve.

 

[Revoltingest]

The top rated TV show in Revoltistan....

[youtube]sor9GzivGbk[/youtube]
YouTube - The Money Song

 

[Riverwolf]

Money doesn't cause your discomfort, but rather the disparity between what you earn & what you want. Even a barter system would find you wanting.

You're not telling me things I don't already know. Money is the face of that disparity.

BTW, I'm not supporting the barter system, either, and like I keep telling you, I'm not against money in general. I'm apathetic about it, and wondering why you praise it so.

Business failure isn't caused by money. Since money is a measure of economic resource, failure is the result of mismanagement of resources...as measured in monetary units.

In this case, the strong desire for it causing them to completely forget about worker and customer satisfaction. This happens all too often in the gaming world.

And remember, many other shlock games come out, for 60 dollars. Even if you have enough money, imagine paying 60 dollars on something they promise is going to be revolutionary and awesome, and then you find you that it's just trash.

Money is what allows astronomers to buy telescopes, instead of having to barter their services to an optical company which doesn't need astronomical observation.

Seriously, why do you keep bringing up the barter system? That's not the only other alternative.

But, anyway, that doesn't really address my point, it just restates yours. The money part of it pales in comparison to the glory found in the heavens.

Overcharging is not the fault of money.

Okay, stop that. I KNOW!! Money as it stands can never be the fault of anything, for it's just an arbitrary term for inanimate objects that people decide have value. I'm just apathetic about money and don't see it as worthy of praise or worship. I see it as necessary considering we're not in the Star Trek universe yet.

Flattery will get you nowhere with me.....well....maybe a little.

How is that flattery? I just said that your post was on the same level of a bad New-Age book.

But imagine an economy where you had to barter your video game design
skills to a farmer for some bacon....or to a miller for flour...or to your dentist for a filling. Money begins to look pretty convenient, eh?

Again, why do you think I'm defending the barter system, as if it were the only other possible alternative, when I haven't even brought it up?

Services also look pretty convenient... and more socially healthy.

Greed existed long before money. But greed is not the problem either...tis dishonesty, stupidity, sloth, meanness & predation which cause societal ills.

Greed is among those, actually. Those are problems, yes, and I'd imagine the list is longer, with certain things being more true than others in certain situations and areas.

When greed is just rational self interest, it is a great force for good.

Greed is never rational. It is such a strong desire that it overrides all rationality to the point where the one feeling it will do just about anything to get what is obtained. "Rational self-interest" is simply rational desire.

 

[Revoltingest]

You're not telling me things I don't already know. Money is the face of that disparity.
BTW, I'm not supporting the barter system, either, and like I keep telling you, I'm not against money in general. I'm apathetic about it, and wondering why you praise it so.

Because it's wonderful!

In this case, the strong desire for it causing them to completely forget about worker and customer satisfaction. This happens all too often in the gaming world.

That is an inherent fault in the person, & the money is blameless.

And remember, many other shlock games come out, for 60 dollars. Even if you have enough money, imagine paying 60 dollars on something they promise is going to be revolutionary and awesome, and then you find you that it's just trash.

Again, money itself is not to blame for low quality & hucksterism.

Seriously, why do you keep bringing up the barter system? That's not the only other alternative.

Because barter is the only true practicable alternative. Other alternatives, such as some form of credit,
are really money by another name. I apologize if leaving this premise unstated was vexing.

But, anyway, that doesn't really address my point, it just restates yours. The money part of it pales in comparison to the glory found in the heavens.

Glory, like beauty, is where one finds it. I can find it many places.

Okay, stop that. I KNOW!! Money as it stands can never be the fault of anything, for it's just an arbitrary term for inanimate objects that people decide have value. I'm just apathetic about money and don't see it as worthy of praise or worship. I see it as necessary considering we're not in the Star Trek universe yet.

It's fine for you to feel that way about money. I hope I don't sound argumentative, for I wish only offer my reasons for appreciating it as I do.

How is that flattery? I just said that your post was on the same level of a bad New-Age book.

Are there good new-age books? Anyway, I'm an engineer...brilliant prose is beyond me.

Again, why do you think I'm defending the barter system, as if it were the only other possible alternative, when I haven't even brought it up?

See above.

Services also look pretty convenient... and more socially healthy.

But their exchange for goods requires proximate need by both parties....not very convenient compared to money.

Greed is among those, actually. Those are problems, yes, and I'd imagine the list is longer, with certain things being more true than others in certain situations and areas.

No argument.

Greed is never rational. It is such a strong desire that it overrides all rationality to the point where the one feeling it will do just about anything to get what is obtained. "Rational self-interest" is simply rational desire.

That's a matter of definition & perspective. Greed certainly has negative connotations, but I find it useful to seek good in it.

 

[Riverwolf]

Because it's wonderful!

You haven't really given any reason for that.

That is an inherent fault in the person, & innocent money is blameless.

Again, money itself is not to blame for low quality & hucksterism.

Greed for it is the problem, and that's what the aphorism claims. I'm not arguing that money is the inherent cause of problems.

Because barter is the only true practicable alternative. Other alternatives, such as some form of credit,
are really money by another name. I apologize if leaving this premise unstated was vexing.

Plus, kinda not true. On a local level, services offer a very personal alternative that has other benefits like social dialogue and understanding.

Glory, like beauty, is where one finds it. I can find it many places.

So can I. Money is not one of those places.

It's fine for you to feel that way about money. I hope I don't sound argumentative, for I wish only offer my reasons for appreciating it as I do.

And I wish to read them. If only I'd been given any.

Are there good new-age books?

Good point. lol

But their exchange for goods requires proximate need by both parties....not very convenient compared to money.

In many cases, I'd think it preferable. After all, it'd help strengthen social bonds that seem to be seriously lacking in modern America.

Sure, when getting something from a corporation, it makes no sense. But one service for another seems reasonable.

I also believe that in an ideal world, necessities would be absolutely free, given out of the heart's goodness.

That's a matter of definition & perspective. Greed certainly has negative connotations, but I find it useful to seek good in it.

I prefer not to seek good in something that's akin to deception and selfishness at the expense of others.

 

[Revoltingest]

You haven't really given any reason for that.

Oh, but I have. To reiterate, it's a powerful system for facilitating easy & quantifiable exchange of goods & services;
it has universality in application, it allows lending & borrowing with precision & simplicity; it is the most fungible
thing ever traded; & it's an elegant system, simultaneously both complex & simple (as long as it's not abused by
governmental mischief with monetary policy). Tis a complex well oiled machine.

Greed for it is the problem...

Were there no money, the greed would still exist. People only want the money because of greed for
material things & services: food, cars, houses, health care, lap dances, furniture, toys, etc, etc.

Plus, kinda not true. On a local level, services offer a very personal alternative that has other benefits like social dialogue and understanding.

Au contraire.....even with money, I can & do barter for services with acquaintances. I just don't want to be
limited to barter only. Without money, how would I finance buying a building? How would I support the building
or roads or the transmission of electricity? I've nothing to offer taxing authorities or utilities that they need.

So can I. Money is not one of those places.

If everyone found beauty in exactly the same places, how boring would that be?

In many cases, I'd think it preferable. After all, it'd help strengthen social bonds that seem to be seriously lacking in modern America.

Isn't it great to have the freedom to use both money & barter?

Sure, when getting something from a corporation, it makes no sense. But one service for another seems reasonable.
I also believe that in an ideal world, necessities would be absolutely free, given out of the heart's goodness.

I don't believe in ideal worlds....I'm forced to deal with humans.

I prefer not to seek good in something that's akin to deception and selfishness at the expense of others.

But you're seeing moral faults in something which intrinsically has none.
We humans are the ones bringing our peccadillos into the economy.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Money's the root of all evil? I didn't realize pedophile priests who molest children do it for the cash.

 

[Revoltingest]

Money's the root of all evil? I didn't realize pedophile priests who molest children do it for the cash.

They do every Penny & Benjamin it in the privacy of their quarters.

 

[Riverwolf]

Oh, but I have. To reiterate, it's a powerful system for facilitating easy & quantifiable exchange of goods & services;
it has universality in application, it allows lending & borrowing with precision & simplicity; it is the most fungible
thing ever traded; & it's an elegant system, simultaneously both complex & simple (as long as it's not abused by
governmental mischief with monetary policy). Tis a complex well oiled machine.

It would be if it weren't so easy to exploit. It's abused by corporations, governments, individuals, mafias...

Nothing that you've listed makes it deserve the lauding you give it.

Were there no money, the greed would still exist. People only want the money because of greed for
material things & services: food, cars, houses, health care, lap dances, furniture, toys, etc, etc.

I'm aware of that, thank you.

Au contraire.....even with money, I can & do barter for services with acquaintances. I just don't want to be
limited to barter only. Without money, how would I finance buying a building?

Help build it? Help support it?

How would I support the building
or roads or the transmission of electricity? I've nothing to offer taxing authorities or utilities that they need.

Sure, if you're many miles away from the one who is providing you with service, money is the preferred method. But my experience with money has primarily been with buying things from store clerks. Theoretically, that can also be done with service.

Isn't it great to have the freedom to use both money & barter?

I'd much prefer it if the kindness of hearts was used.

Besides, barter isn't used at all, except between friends. Are you aware of how much you'll get if you sell a game at Gamestop and they'll sell it for, say, $25?

You get about 50 cents. Not exactly an equal trade, no?

I don't believe in ideal worlds....I'm forced to deal with humans.

Well, the way you laud money seems quite idealisitc.

But you're seeing moral faults in something which intrinsically has none.

Yeah, it does. I've described it. Greed is such a strong desire for something that anything, even at others' expenses, will be done for it. How is that not intrinsically morally wrong?

 

[Revoltingest]

It would be if it weren't so easy to exploit. It's abused by corporations, governments, individuals, mafias...
Nothing that you've listed makes it deserve the lauding you give it.

I just see it differently. But then I've been playing with money far longer than you've even been alive.
I understand it much better than when I was your age.

Help build it? Help support it?

How would I help construct a commercial building? I'm not an electrician, plumber, painter or other
tradesman...plus, I'm not as spry as I once was. About all I'm qualified to do for a building contractor
is remove debris....how many years would I have to do that to buy a $2million building? Besides, I'm
already busy managing what I have. Hmmm....let me guess....you don't invest in commercial real estate?
To handle larger amounts of money generally means borrowing. And to do that, you need a track record
of success at playing the game, so that you earn the trust of lenders. It takes a while to be fully engaged
in an economy to appreciate the elegance, beauty, subtleties, goodness & power of money.

Sure, if you're many miles away from the one who is providing you with service, money is the preferred method. But my experience with money has primarily been with buying things from store clerks. Theoretically, that can also be done with service.

Have you tried bartering with them? How did it go?

I'd much prefer it if the kindness of hearts was used.

I've never found anyone willing to work for me out of kindness. They usually have compelling needs
like feeding the family. I don't grow food, so other than money, what should I give them?

Besides, barter isn't used at all, except between friends. Are you aware of how much you'll get if you sell a game at Gamestop and they'll sell it for, say, $25?
You get about 50 cents. Not exactly an equal trade, no?

Don't blame the money if they place a low value on what you sell.
Have you tried bartering for a different game? How did that go?

Well, the way you laud money seems quite idealisitc.

Money does embody high ideals, but it's also downright practical.

Yeah, it does. I've described it. Greed is such a strong desire for something that anything, even at others' expenses, will be done for it. How is that not intrinsically morally wrong?

I see other definitions of greed too, not as evil as the one you use.
One need not abandon ethics just cuz one feels greed.

 

[Numinous]

Money's the root of all evil? I didn't realize pedophile priests who molest children do it for the cash.

The quote is being portrayed incorrectly.

The real quote is for the love of money is the root of all evil.

And yes, priests are in the position they are in in large part because of the Roman Catholic organization's sensational dependence on power and greed. Go back to the beginning, and you will see these pedophiles, although may have become pedophiles anyway, are in a system that is twisted from top to bottom, and wholly dependent on large sums of money.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The quote is being portrayed incorrectly.

The real quote is for the love of money is the root of all evil.

And yes, priests are in the position they are in in large part because of the Roman Catholic organization's sensational dependence on power and greed. Go back to the beginning, and you will see these pedophiles, although may have become pedophiles anyway, are in a system that is twisted from top to bottom, and wholly dependent on large sums of money.

Ah, so these priests rape children because they love money?

I'm sure the psychological community will be very interested to find this out.

 

[Numinous]

Ah, so these priests rape children because they love money?

I'm sure the psychological community will be very interested to find this out.

Nice twist, but no.
They are in an environment that has been lenient and sometimes appears to have condoned pedophelia. In order for that environment to exist in the first place, there had to be a love of money right?
Were discussing the root, not every evil action. The root denotes a beginning or foundation.

There is also the possibility, that if a humans brain is defective in the sense it can't determine if rape, murder, or such acts are bad, can we call it evil? I'm not so sure about that.
To some degree, I would try to define evil acts as those acts we know are deemed wrong, but do them anyway. If one is sick, though I still condemn the acts and the person, I don't call it evil.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sure, if you're many miles away from the one who is providing you with service, money is the preferred method. But my experience with money has primarily been with buying things from store clerks. Theoretically, that can also be done with service.

I do traffic engineering and transportation planning. While department stores do need traffic impact studies done occasionally (though usually before the store is even built, which makes it hard to shop there, even by barter), I've yet to find one that will accept my services in exchange for merchandise.

Also, since the going rate for a traffic impact study is in the thousands of dollars, if I was to pay for, say, a television with a traffic impact study, I'd be overpaying massively.

Besides, barter isn't used at all, except between friends.

You'd be surprised. Maybe it's something weird about the motorsport community (though there are many weird things about the motorsport community), but I've seen no shortage of classified ads that end with something like "$8000 or best offer - interesting trades considered".

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Nice twist, but no.
They are in an environment that has been lenient and sometimes appears to have condoned pedophelia. In order for that environment to exist in the first place, there had to be a love of money right?

This makes no sense.

Were discussing the root, not every evil action. The root denotes a beginning or foundation.

Right, money has nothing to do with sexually molesting children.

There is also the possibility, that if a humans brain is defective in the sense it can't determine if rape, murder, or such acts are bad, can we call it evil? I'm not so sure about that.

Ask the kid who has been raped repeatedly over a period of years whether it is evil or not.

To some degree, I would try to define evil acts as those acts we know are deemed wrong, but do them anyway. If one is sick, though I still condemn the acts and the person, I don't call it evil.

By this rationale, greed can be just as much of a sickness as anything else. I suppose it's not evil in that then?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You'd be surprised. Maybe it's something weird about the motorsport community (though there are many weird things about the motorsport community), but I've seen no shortage of classified ads that end with something like "$8000 or best offer - interesting trades considered".

Seems to be common among gearheads of all varieties. Probably has something to do with more interest in the gear than money.

 

[Numinous]

Right, money has nothing to do with sexually molesting children.

and you would know this how exactly?

Ask the kid who has been raped repeatedly over a period of years whether it is evil or not.

I have, and he actually forgave and was sympathetic to the one doing it to him. Really bizarre as far as I can tell, but what was your point?

Let me ask you this. Can you say there would be rape if money was not the prime mover of our world? I was kinda joking with you earlier, but now that I think about this...

If the world lived in a way that nothing was for sale, and for the most part everything was equal, would individuals feel these compulsory urges to do things that are so out of the ordinary? Of course I know you or I couldn't answer that, but it is interesting.

So no, money has nothing directly to do with a boy getting raped, but would that rape be happening if money was not so important in our world?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

and you would know this how exactly?

I can only assume you have absolutely no idea why an adult would sexually molest a child if you have to ask this.

I have, and he actually forgave and was sympathetic to the one doing it to him. Really bizarre as far as I can tell, but what was your point?

Yeah, a lot of children are so psychologically damaged by their experiences that they identify with their abuser. It's a common phenomenon. My point is that raping kids is an evil act. If you disagree, I hope you're not around kids.

Let me ask you this. Can you say there would be rape if money was not the prime mover of our world? I was kinda joking with you earlier, but now that I think about this...

Yes, there was rape before money.

If the world lived in a way that nothing was for sale, and for the most part everything was equal, would individuals feel these compulsory urges to do things that are so out of the ordinary? Of course I know you or I couldn't answer that, but it is interesting.

Yes, I can answer it. Rape has nothing to do with money.

So no, money has nothing directly to do with a boy getting raped, but would that rape be happening if money was not so important in our world?

Yes, even children got raped before money. Perhaps you need to learn more about human sexuality, psychology, and disorders.

 

[Numinous]

Yes, there was rape before money.

When was there a time recorded there wasn't some sort of money, and where can I learn about the rape in that civilization. Of course only if you are kind enough to educate me. Maybe refer a book to me, or reputable website? Intriguing subject.

I do also resent your suggestion about me being a rapist if I didn't find rape evil. Uncalled for.

You asked me to ask a kid who has been repeatedly raped if it was evil. I said I did and he didn't find it evil. I simply answered your question. I have no problem with you moving the goal post, but I answered your question and never said it was evil from my point of view in that post.