If there is a life after death.....

[Bird123]

Your whole argument is based upon false premises.
No messenger ever told me to jump off a bridge so it is not a message from a Messenger of God.
Since no messenger ever said it, it cannot be something I don't want to hear.

I'm all in with what the Messengers actually say. I don't pick and choose.

What I am asking is could your believing and accepting ever lead you to the point you would jump off that bridge? That is the knowledge I am seeking from you. There have been many who were convinced to die for God. At what point does believing what one wants to be true disconnect a believer from reality that they would jump? Could that ever be you?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

No, I do not try to prove the unprovable. God is unprovable. Messengers of God are unprovable. A spiritual world is unprovable.

Is it really? I would say you are very wrong. On the other hand, these are things one can only prove for oneself. One can point others where the proof exists, however it is a journey each can only take for themselves.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

Then you do not seek? Worry not. In time someone will.

We're where we always are ─ seek WHAT, exactly?

Clearly you don't have anything real, anything with objective existence, in mind, simply some or other particular concept or thing imagined.

 

[Trailblazer]

Enemy ' death ' will come to a final end - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26

1 Corinthians 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

When the perishable (physical body) has been clothed with the imperishable (spiritual body), then the mortal human will become immortal.
At that time physical death will be destroyed, swallowed up in victory.

Physical death is not the enemy and it will always exist on earth.

32: O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?
The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

In the Bible all the people Jesus resurrected were brought back to healthy physical life on Earth.

That is not what is going to happen. Nobody is going to be raised in a physical body to live on Earth forever.

44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The Resurrection Body​

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - New International Version

The Resurrection of Christ - Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you really think one can go through life and learn nothing? Everybody learns something. Because others do not learn as quickly as you want them too, does not mean there is no learning going on. Remember, there is no time limit on learning..

I don't know..
What about a person who does not repent upon committing a serious crime..
Would you trust them amongst your own family?

Some people get "locked up", and never released..
I see that the "devils" cannot be part of society .. it is not straightforward, as you suggest.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That is not what is going to happen. Nobody is going to be raised in a physical body to live on Earth forever..

It makes little difference, really..
The point is, that our souls do not cease at death.
How we actually find ourselves aware once more, is not in our hands.

G-d does what He wills .. He creates whatever universe He wills.
We know this present universe, but have little knowledge of what is hidden.
This universe is finite, I would agree .. but cosmic consciousness is not.

 

[Link]

In my experience as a psychic medium, there are spirit guides who assist human spirits in communicating with the living and crossing over into the spirit world. I've encountered and conversed with spirit guides that I would describe as angelic, as well as with human spirits that I perceived to have attained a higher plane of existence on the other side. I've often worked with both of these spirit guides when I've had difficulty understanding a spirit's message or convincing a lost and confused spirit to cross over. As a medium, I feel as though I have a spiritual connection with these spirit guides whenever I am with them and conversing with them. I feel as if I know them. It's similar to the feeling I get when I personally know a good friend. I trust my guides to help me.

What is a confused spirit confused about and why?

 

[Link]

There is an assumption that the physical world exists. This is not true. Body parts are really spiritual beings. It appears they don't talk or have a spirit but everything talks and has a spirit.

There are two deaths, and two lives for humans, we were "dead" before coming to this world when we were spirits, but not moving about on earth, just conscious. And then, live on earth. Then we die and become without a body, and the trials therein are of a different type. The trials are very important for souls who who were neither believers nor disbelievers, and how they pick between good beautiful souls and evil ugly souls therein, and whether they accept God's Mastery or Satan's Mastery, is a heavy trial after death. God will assist who he can to over come those trials, but it's not a guarantee except for believers who are righteous. The disbelievers will of course see the Angels (a) and God's forces as evil, and pick Satan and his forces as the righteous just as they were blind to the beauty and denied in in this world, they will deny it when they die.

Whatever "hell" "punishment from Angels" dead people face pales in comparison when the the signs of God will be fully manifested. It is said in a Ziyarat to Imam Ali (a) that Imam Ali (a) is himself the torment of the people of hell. He won't be punishing them actively, but his light will burn a lot more the darkness and be more painful then any physical pain can amount to.

All souls even without day of judgment eventually return to God, and so will awaken to reality in time. If evil, they will burn to it, and if good they will benefit by it and enjoy it.

However, God wanted to prove it to all souls at once, has set up a day and appointment when they all will be raised. This is also to establish the proof for everyone so no soul in heaven will say, "why is so and so being punished" and no soul in hell, will think unjustly of the order of the universe.

He promised physical pains even though they pale comparison to the light burning darkness pain, to make us avoid it. I believe if God could've reformed souls in a way that he knew possible he would've. Of course, there is the possibility that he could've guided us all in the same way he will reveal the truth on the day of judgment from the start and could've made sure truth is clear to all without trial. However, the intention to worship God would have little meaning. For example, Angels (a) thought highly of themselves and so God to remove pride and self-admiration, and to make them sincerely worship him in an honorable way, tried them with Adam (a). He could've made Adam (a) light being that his light was so bright and every Angel (a) would witness it and not doubt including Iblis. But he created a nature that Angels (a) originally thought was a bad idea as it had potential of causing mischief and bloodshed.

The humans were not always meant to be. Humans are created as a trial for Jinn, to choose between good and evil. The saints and followers of the chosen ones are Angels, and there is chosen or close Angels from those Angels.

Also, everything is tried similarly. There are things that submit to order of the universe and believe in God, there is other things aside from Jinn and humans, even can be a pebble, that feel forced to play the role they are playing in the universe. The things that are averse to submission to God are disbelievers and evil, and think of God as a Jinn subduing all others with greatest power. They don't believe in his oneness or legitimacy or uniqueness.

Iblis once believed in God but no one will believe in God and think God is wrong. He disbelieved and so thinks of "Allah" as a powerful Jinn like himself that is wrong.

He being an idiot thinks he can overwhelm heaven one day and beat God and Angels, if he gets enough forces and they become powerful to face them. But these beings who were taken as gods by people never came to help when the moment of destruction of cities came about.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That is not what is going to happen. Nobody is going to be raised in a physical body to live on Earth forever.

Reading your post here, as well as your other posts in this thread, reminded me of the "Where are the dead?" thread that we once participated in. I found two previous posts of mine from that thread (posts #66 and #82) that I think would be fitting in response to your posts. I'd also like to say that, as a Baha'i, you appear to understand the afterlife better than the majority of Christians and some other Abrahamic theists I've met over the years. It's not surprising to me to have encountered so many Christians who have misleading beliefs about what will happen to them after they die. It's also not surprising to me the vast number of earthbound spirits, who were Christians, that didn't understand why they weren't in heaven yet or sleeping in their graves as they expected.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What is a confused spirit confused about and why?

Based on my knowledge and personal experience as a medium, I believe that the following factors contribute to why there are earthbound spirits: (1) There are spirits who don’t realize that they are dead because they died unexpectedly and are now confused and don't understand what is happening to them; (2) They are upset and scared about dying unexpectedly and are in denial; (3) They have unfinished business, such as wanting to let their loved ones know that they are okay or feeling obligated to watch over their loved ones; (4) They are angry and are seeking justice or retribution; and (5) They prefer to be around the living because they miss being alive or because they "feed on" the negative emotions of the living. The last four reasons I listed above are why I believe that a human spirit's experience is often primarily determined by them and can be either positive or negative depending on how they handle their death and even what kind of person they were in life. I've been directly speaking to and interacting with earthbound human spirits for several years, and these experiences have demonstrated to me that a person's character in this life can carry over into the afterlife and determine their fate. My experiences have also shown me that some spirits will refuse to crossover because they feel remorse for how they lived their lives and will often seek forgiveness and reconciliation with their living loved ones. And finally, I've discovered that some earthbound human spirits can even attach themselves to a person or a specific object, or they will remain in the location where they died (such as their home or a hospital) or in another familiar location that they frequently visited while they were still alive, and they will even stay near their grave or at the side of a highway if they died there in a vehicle accident.

As a psychic medium and a former Christian, it truly saddens me to encounter the earthbound spirits of Christians because their belief in the Bible misled them. Not only are they scared and confused, but many of them feel as if they were betrayed, and they are angry about that. In my experience, these angry spirits are the hardest to cross over because they think that they were lied to and have a right to feel betrayed. But it is also very difficult to convince a scared and confused spirit to cross over as well, such as the spirit of the young girl that I mentioned several months ago in a previous post (see here). Many of these poor souls were stuck for years until either I or other mediums guided them to cross over, and sadly, some are still stuck because they are too afraid or too angry to cross over into the spirit world. Many of them have asked me, "Where is God?" or "Where is Jesus?" and "Why am I not in heaven yet?" I've had to explain what's happening to them. I think that it's very sad that these spirits are so confused and upset because they aren't asleep in their graves or in heaven as they expected and believed they would be after death. To be honest, I can't blame them for being so confused and upset. This is why I believe the Bible's teachings on the afterlife are very inaccurate and misleading. I can't emphasize enough how unfortunate I believe it is that the Bible's teachings on the afterlife have resulted in many human spirits being earthbound and stuck in the physical world. In my opinion, Christians shouldn't rely on the Bible for learning about the afterlife, but I realize that is quite unlikely. Unfortunately, what these Christians believe about the afterlife as taught in the Bible has resulted in my encounters with many lost and confused earthbound spirits of Christians who don't understand what is happening to them.

I will say that it is truly an honor for me to assist these earthbound spirits in crossing over into the spirit world, but the experience can be quite sad for me at times. I am sad to say that there are times when I can't convince one of these spirits to cross over. It saddens me to think about how these spirits are lost and are either wandering aimlessly or staying at their grave, where they died, or in a place where they felt welcome and safe. I try to help these spirits, but they don't always want to be helped. My beliefs about earthbound spirits and the afterlife are founded on my 44 years of personal experience as a psychic medium, the last 16 of which I have spent as a practicing medium and as an experienced paranormal investigator. In my opinion, the kind of evidence of paranormal phenomena that I have recorded or that other paranormal investigators (whom I know and trust) have recorded validates my experiences.

 

[Trailblazer]

What I am asking is could your believing and accepting ever lead you to the point you would jump off that bridge? That is the knowledge I am seeking from you.

No, I would not do that.

There have been many who were convinced to die for God. At what point does believing what one wants to be true disconnect a believer from reality that they would jump? Could that ever be you?

People simply believe what they believe for various reasons. Why are you assuming people believe what they want to be true?

No, that could never be me because I would never belong to a religion that told me to die for God.

 

[Link]

Based on my knowledge and personal experience as a medium, I believe that the following factors contribute to why there are earthbound spirits: (1) There are spirits who don’t realize that they are dead because they died unexpectedly and are now confused and don't understand what is happening to them; (2) They are upset and scared about dying unexpectedly and are in denial; (3) They have unfinished business, such as wanting to let their loved ones know that they are okay or feeling obligated to watch over their loved ones; (4) They are angry and are seeking justice or retribution; and (5) They prefer to be around the living because they miss being alive or because they "feed on" the negative emotions of the living. The last four reasons I listed above are why I believe that a human spirit's experience is often primarily determined by them and can be either positive or negative depending on how they handle their death and even what kind of person they were in life. I've been directly speaking to and interacting with earthbound human spirits for several years, and these experiences have demonstrated to me that a person's character in this life can carry over into the afterlife and determine their fate. My experiences have also shown me that some spirits will refuse to crossover because they feel remorse for how they lived their lives and will often seek forgiveness and reconciliation with their living loved ones. And finally, I've discovered that some earthbound human spirits can even attach themselves to a person or a specific object, or they will remain in the location where they died (such as their home or a hospital) or in another familiar location that they frequently visited while they were still alive, and they will even stay near their grave or at the side of a highway if they died there in a vehicle accident.

As a medium and a former Christian, it truly saddens me to encounter the earthbound spirits of Christians because their belief in the Bible misled them. Not only are they scared and confused, but many of them feel as if they were betrayed, and they are angry about that. In my experience, these angry spirits are the hardest to cross over because they think that they were lied to and have a right to feel betrayed. But it's also very difficult to convince a scared and confused spirit to cross over as well, such as the spirit of the young girl that I mentioned several months ago in a previous post (see here). Many of these poor souls were stuck for years until either I or other mediums guided them to cross over, and sadly, some are still stuck because they are too afraid or too angry to cross over into the spirit world. Many of them have asked me, "Where is God?" or "Where is Jesus?" and "Why am I not in heaven yet?" I've had to to explain what's happening to them. I think that it's very sad that these spirits are so confused and very upset because they aren't asleep in their graves or in heaven as they expected and believed they would be after death. To be honest, I can't blame them for being so confused and upset. This is why I believe the Bible's teachings on the afterlife are very inaccurate and misleading. I can't emphasize enough how unfortunate I believe it is that the Bible's teachings on the afterlife have resulted in many human spirits being earthbound and stuck in the physical world. In my opinion, Christians shouldn't rely on the Bible for learning about the afterlife, but I realize that is quite unlikely. Unfortunately, what these Christians believe about the afterlife as taught in the Bible has resulted in my encounters with so many lost and confused earthbound human spirits of Christians who don't understand what is happening to them.

I will say that it is truly an honor for me to assist these earthbound spirits in crossing over into the spirit world, but the experience can be quite sad for me at times. I am sad to say that there are times when I can't convince one of these spirits to cross over. It saddens me to think about how these spirits are lost and are either wandering aimlessly or staying at their grave, where they died, or in a place where they felt welcome and safe. I try to help these spirits, but they don't always want to be helped. My beliefs about earthbound spirits and the afterlife are founded on my 44 years of personal experience as a psychic medium, the last 16 of which I have spent as a practicing medium and as an experienced paranormal investigator. In my opinion, the kind of evidence of paranormal phenomena that I have recorded or that other paranormal investigators (whom I know and trust to be honest) have recorded validates my experiences as a medium.

Spiritual organs (sight, taste, eating spiritually) to me have to cultivated in this world or we won't be ready for after death. If we recognized beauty for what it truly is, we can incline to the truly beautiful spirits from both human and Angels, after death. Otherwise, if we saw the best people on earth as evil and saw the evil as good, I believe we will be truly confused where to go, who to trust, and what is happening, after death.

The full proof of who was right and what will happen, of heaven and hell full reality, does not occur at death. It occurs on the day of judgment, and so whatever light we have of certainty going in this life, will be necessary to continue to spiritually journey after death.

Also to believe the light and God in name, while not inclining to the light by the heart, will leave souls confused. Doctrines are important as guideposts, but we are meant to believe in reality with actions and light of actions reinforce light of insight and love.

Souls who relied on doctrines or religions, but didn't fill their souls with the good actions they claimed to believe in, will not benefit from their doctrine even if it correct.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is it really? I would say you are very wrong. On the other hand, these are things one can only prove for oneself. One can point others where the proof exists, however it is a journey each can only take for themselves.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Well, for once I agree!
We can prove these things to ourselves but not to others. We can point them to where the proof exists but it is a journey each can only take for themselves.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Spiritual organs (sight, taste, eating spiritually) to me have to cultivated in this world or we won't be ready for after death. If we recognized beauty for what it truly is, we can incline to the truly beautiful spirits from both human and Angels, after death. Otherwise, if we saw the best people on earth as evil and saw the evil as good, I believe we will be truly confused where to go, who to trust, and what is happening, after death.

The full proof of who was right and what will happen, of heaven and hell full reality, does not occur at death. It occurs on the day of judgment, and so whatever light we have of certainty going in this life, will be necessary to continue to spiritually journey after death.

Also to believe the light and God in name, while not inclining to the light by the heart, will leave souls confused. Doctrines are important as guideposts, but we are meant to believe in reality with actions and light of actions reinforce light of insight and love.

Souls who relied on doctrines or religions, but didn't fill their souls with the good actions they claimed to believe in, will not benefit from their doctrine even if it correct.

As a medium, spiritualist, Wiccan, and druid, I don't believe in a judgment day or in the biblical god rewarding or punishing spirits in the afterlife. It is my belief that the spirit realm is an everlasting existence that is neither bound by space nor time, nor is it limited to heaven or hell. As a matter of fact, I don't believe that there is a heaven or hell, so I don't believe that human spirits are or will be imprisoned in either one for eternity. I don't believe in heaven or hell because I staunchly disagree with what the Bible teaches about the afterlife and what it says will happen to people after they die. On the contrary, I believe that human spirits can generally choose whether to cross over into the spirit realm or remain earthbound, but there are some spirits who become trapped in the physical world and require the assistance of a medium to cross over. I also believe that there are spirit portals (such as mirrors, windows, and doorways) and spiritual vortexes (see here) that serve as gateways for spirits to travel between the spiritual realm and the physical world.

 

[Link]

As a medium, spiritualist, Wiccan, and druid, I do not believe in a judgment day or in the biblical god rewarding or punishing spirits in the afterlife. It is my belief that the spirit realm is an everlasting existence that is neither bound by space nor time, nor is it limited to heaven or hell. As a matter of fact, I don't believe that there is a heaven or hell, so I don't believe that human spirits are or will be imprisoned in either one for eternity. I don't believe in heaven or hell because I staunchly disagree with what the Bible teaches about the afterlife and what it says will happen to people after they die. On the contrary, I believe that human spirits can generally choose whether to cross over or remain earthbound, but there are some spirits who become trapped in the physical world and require the assistance of a psychic medium to cross over. I also believe that there are spirit portals (such as mirrors, windows, and doorways) or spiritual vortexes (read about them here) that serve as gateways for human spirits and nonhuman entities to travel between the spiritual realm and the physical world.

I understand. Thanks for sharing. I think your experiences show heaven and hell are not after death right away like some people believe. Whether there will be a finality where they are judged eventually, I don't think dead souls all know it. The Quran for example shows they will be surprised when risen and realize the sent ones told the truth but before that where in their "restful places".

 

[Bird123]

We're where we always are ─ seek WHAT, exactly?

Clearly you don't have anything real, anything with objective existence, in mind, simply some or other particular concept or thing imagined.

Oh, but I do. It stares you in the face. It must be imagined is the excuse you use that limits you from Discovering anything at all.

The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that! If one is not open to all possibilities, how much knowledge will not be Discovered? Do you really think that all existence falls within that simple little box you want it to?

Worry not! There will come a time you will be with God. Since everyone judges themselves, do not feel foolish. It's just lessons you need to live.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[blü 2]

Oh, but I do. It stares you in the face. It must be imagined is the excuse you use that limits you from Discovering anything at all.

No, you're at best mistaken.

If your claim were true, you could describe this real non-imaginary non-notional thing to me, to us, so that we'll know it when we see it ─ but once again you can't.

This is where we always end up.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is where we always end up.

You, along with the rest is us.

 

[Bird123]

I don't know..
What about a person who does not repent upon committing a serious crime..
Would you trust them amongst your own family?

Some people get "locked up", and never released..
I see that the "devils" cannot be part of society .. it is not straightforward, as you suggest.

Are you just finding an excuse to Hate?
You do not understand. Each chooses their lessons. Our actions will return, in time, not as punishment, but to teach us what our actions really mean. What will be learned when that serious crime returns to that person? What will be learned when that serious crime returns to the one they love the most? When one understands all sides, Intelligence will pick the Best choices.

Sure, protect yourself, however must you hate and condemn others on their journey to Discover what the Best choices really are? In a multilevel classroom, one sees others learning lessons one has already learned. Is this the time to hate. punish, condemn and seek pay back? What are you teaching your children? This is the time to work at fixing the problem and guiding them along toward the path to resolution and the best choices that everyone seeks. If you hate, it teaches hate. That is what you will get.

Mankind always seeks easy, but does that really solve the problem? It's easy to lock someone up and throw away the key, however what is being done to Discover the underlying causes of crime? Not much!! The problem will never go away until it is solved. How is mankind doing in the solved department? Not much from what I see. When the adversity is great enough, it will point to where people will see solving the problem will bring much better results than sweeping it under the carpet by simply locking it away.

There was a lady whose pastor told her who she could be around. He said by being around these so called evil people they will make you evil. My question: If everyone shuns away from people labeled evil, how can evil people see there is a better way?

It looks like a long journey before mankind will find the solution. They value and do not understand the petty things they value. Lessons and time will deliver the answers. It's a good thing there is no time limit on learning.

It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. A person's actions and choices show God and the world what one knows and what one needs to learn. A person's actions and choices determine our lessons. Should one really every want to choose Hate, Blame,Condemning, Wrath, Pay Back , Revenge or any of the other petty things mankind holds so dear? I see it much better to work at Solving the problems instead.

Oh, let's not forget the Love and Kindness. The good actions will return as well and often when one needs it the worst!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!