If you have to choose between two types of women (rebellion vs obedience)

[Godobeyer]

I know a lot of algerian women (arab and berbere) and they have strong personality most of time.

I meant stronger than her husband , you know , even if she had stronger personality (she take control) on him , she may don't represent that to people .

but for sure you know that our women are mostly obedients , and they don't feel no harm in that ?

 

[Godobeyer]

My ex-husband was the controlling type of man, and I fell into an obedient woman role. He would get angry if I went out with my friends (even female friends) and assumed I flirted with men and would leave him for someone else.

thanks for share your experience here M Treks .
so there are jealous men too in West !

did you mean by friends " male" ?

it's seems your ex-husband , one that type of care and jealous man .

so you accept to be obedient wife ? is that hurt your feeling sometimes , and may enjoying his controlling sometimes ?

It did not take long before I started to resent him. I couldn't go out with friends, yet he could get a lift home with a female colleague, and I was supposed to be OK with that. I had to work to bring in the money, because he didn't, and yet if I had to work back late he would get angry and suggest I was seeing a man instead.

I did end up leaving him.

And now I'm much more aware and will not let a man control me like that again, and I will not surrender my freedom to make someone else happy at my own expense.

so he ask you to leave your friends , and he stay a friend to female !!!!

btw , in most of the cases in my country (Algeria) or in Muslim world, the husband who suppose to work and and get money , this is his duty , the duty of wife is to care about house and prepare the lunch and take care for her babies .

so we divide the duties .

@Godobeyer , when your wife asks you not to go somewhere, do you obey her?

that's depend her request, in most of time I will not obey my wife .

can you give an exemple ?

If she is jealous of you speaking to another woman, do you stop speaking to her?

of course i will stop .

If not... why not?

In our community , because of "religion,culture,tradition" we don't suppose to speak to woman in personal , except in emergency cases , like in work (for fonction issues), study (eduction issues),doctor,trade (buy and sell) or help her for exemple , she drive and her car get broke .....etc

And why is it OK to expect something of one person when you wouldn't tolerate it for yourself?

I don' get your question , can you elaborate it by giving an exemple ?

 

[Pastek]

I meant stronger than her husband , you know , even if she had stronger personality (she take control) on him , she may don't represent that to people .

I've seen that a lot

You should define what means obedient and rebellious for you in the first place.

 

[LuisDantas]

(Forgive me for jumping midway through your conversation, please)

thanks for share your experience here M Treks .
so there are jealous men too in West !

Oh, not many. Just a few hundred millions. Or a few billions, perhaps.

If there is a significant difference in this matter, it will be IMO mostly because there is so much more opportunity to choose less traditional ways to deal with that jealousy.

Among the most well reputed of those ways I could mention acceptance. Most well-married couples somewhat enjoy a bit of jealousy (from both partners, usually) as a spice of sorts and learn to trust the quality of their own interactions instead, hoping (not always succesfully, I must admit) to nurture such good communication and intimacy that potential troubles can be detected and corrected before they materialize.

Husbands often make an effort to surprise their wives with "escapes" from routine tasks for, say, a weekend away from home in exotic, romantic places. Or to present themselves as attractive, well-perfumed, well-dressed, and if at all possible in good physical shape in order to care for their wives interest on them. Or to be attentive, receptive to and accepting of their wives subtlest fantasies and desires in order to address them in their intimacy. Or even simply to develop a good rapport with them, to be trusted and understanding partners so that both of them will have good reason to value their relationship and make the effort to keep, care for and protect it simply because it is so much worthy.

Admitedly, these is a lot of variation in those approaches. Not all of them will be useful or even healthy for all people under any circunstances. Mistakes happen, not rarely tragically so, out of arrogance, foolishness, honest ignorance or even simple lack of good fortune.

In a nutshell, in the last 100-120 years or so the roles that married people fulfill to each other and to larger society have become a lot less anchored in tradition and a lot more in whatever the couple itself and the people they interact with directly (immediate familty, close friends) decides to value.

That leads to considerable potential for aimlessness and even tragedy, and to a not inconsiderable amount of people who are very much scared out of their minds with uncertainty.

But many of us, when we learn about it and consider the options, also end up welcoming the improved opportunities for finding out what actually works for the happiness of each and every specific couple.

Some of the most succesfull and happiest marriages I have seen, marriages that I make a point of witnessing whenever I have the chance simply because they are so magnificiently inspiring and heartwarming, involve couples that have strayed away from the perception that the woman should be quiet, obedient and submissive and are all the better for it. Men are not really all that often happy dealing with a consistently submissive, obedient partner.

Obedience has specific advantages and disadvantages. It is invaluable for goals of planning for the future - if it can be sustained without too much sacrifice and self-denial. And it turns out that a healthy relationship does not really work with too much sacrifice and self-denial, particularly when the sacrifice is not well split between the two. Perhaps even more significant is that obedience is unexciting except for people with a strong controlling tendency, which are not too many nor particularly desirable. A bit of unpredictability, of a rebellious streak, is both valuable and exciting. Among other reasons, because it shows that one's partner is fully capable of walking away and living without us... but she would rather remain at one's side.

 

[Godobeyer]

I've seen that a lot

You should define what means obedient and rebellious for you in the first place.

obedient : which care about her husband , and take care of him and his house and his kids , and do his normal requests , and informe him about her movements (for exemple If she want to go out to visit her family , she inform him) , she respect and value that he goes out to work and suffered for make her live better life .

rebellious : opposite which above , and plus rebellious woman for me , is once which had no problem to cheat on or seduce others , or disrespect her husband , and argue for everything " trouble maker" , which the marriage for her is worth ZERO ,i mean the couple relation for her is like , log in , log out .

 

[Marisa]

but for sure you know that our women are mostly obedients , and they don't feel no harm in that ?

Is that really true, that they are okay with being obedient? Or is disobedience not tolerated? How could you test that women enjoy being repressed and considered an ornament in her husband's house? You can't, can you?

 

[Marisa]

obedient : which care about her husband , and take care of him and his house and his kids , and do his normal requests , and informe him about her movements (for exemple If she want to go out to visit her family , she inform him) , she respect and value that he goes out to work and suffered for make her live better life .

rebellious : opposite which above , and plus rebellious woman for me , is once which had no problem to cheat on or seduce others , or disrespect her husband , and argue for everything " trouble maker" , which the marriage for her is worth ZERO ,i mean the couple relation for her is like , log in , log out .

That's not obedience or disobedience, that's basic respect. Of course I care about my husband and to the extent that I can take care of him. But he's a grown man and I expect him to take care of himself for the most part. And of course I inform him when I'm travelling because the police get really pissed off when you file a missing person's report and it turns out I was just on a short vacation.

I have a question, if your wife felt like your marriage was worth zero to her, does she have the option to leave you and get a divorce? And by "have the option" I mean if she does will she be shunned by her family and/or the rest of your society? Can she obtain a job and support herself? If you have kids, can she argue in court for custody of them? In other words, how does you culture view a woman who chooses to no longer be married and prefers to be responsible for herself?

 

[Godobeyer]

Is that really true, that they are okay with being obedient? Or is disobedience not tolerated? How could you test that women enjoy being repressed and considered an ornament in her husband's house? You can't, can you?

Most are obedient , that's true , it's not very strick issue like army orders.

disobedience , that's

that's question , refered to them more than me , i can't answser for them in perfect .

but for sure because our way of life is different than yours ,so , you (women) in West is mostly its obligation for women to go out for work to live ,in general our women don't obligated to go out to work , except in some nessecery case : "widom", "poverity " or help her husband .

 

[Godobeyer]

That's not obedience or disobedience, that's basic respect. Of course I care about my husband and to the extent that I can take care of him. But he's a grown man and I expect him to take care of himself for the most part. And of course I inform him when I'm travelling because the police get really pissed off when you file a missing person's report and it turns out I was just on a short vacation.

SO you care about being reported to police , let's suppose there is not report ? you will inform him ?

btw i meant by inform , short trip , neighborhood , family , friends

I have a question, if you felt like your marriage was worth zero to her, does she have the option to leave you and get a divorce?

of course there is a divorce .
indeed some women and even some men the marriage is worth zero .

And by "have the option" I mean if she does will she be shunned by her family and/or the rest of your society?

maybe , that's depend on her acts and the mentality of her family and society .

Can she obtain a job and support herself?

of course she can

If you have kids, can she argue in court for custody of them?

i am talking about my country (Algeria ) here the Husband if he divorce his wife , he should give her a home to live with her/his kids , he should not kick her out the house .
and he should pay for them a monthly expense .

In other words, how does you culture view a woman who chooses to no longer be married and prefers to be responsible for herself?

it's ok , there is no obligation to force woman to marry or not to work .

and if she get married she manage this issue with her husband , "work or stay home"

millions of women are working as teachers and doctors ....etc

 

[Marisa]

Most are obedient , that's true , it's not very strick issue like army orders.

disobedience , that's

that's question , refered to them more than me , i can't answser for them in perfect .

but for sure because our way of life is different than yours ,so , you (women) in West is mostly its obligation for women to go out for work to live ,in general our women don't obligated to go out to work , except in some nessecery case : "widom", "poverity " or help her husband .

Women aren't "obligated" over here. We have a plethora of old white men sitting in our highest offices who would love for US women to be confined to their kitchens, pregnant and raising their husband's children. What we have that it doesn't appear that you have is many more people, women included, who want to be seen as equals of men, not ornaments of men. I don't exist to raise children and screw my husband, pick up his laundry, cook his meals and do nothing he doesn't give me permission to do. I have my own goals, and I happen to live in a society where that is encouraged. The simple fact of the matter is that your culture probably will never know what women want because you don't think it's relevant to ask them. Ever. You geared this thread toward men, after all, to find out what kind of women they prefer. A better question would have been "what kind of woman do you want to be?" But that thought process is foreign to you. So long as your culture defines female value as what they need to feel "obligated" to do, you're always going to only achieve half of your potential. Because half of your population is sitting at home cooking, cleaning, and raising the next generation of men to suppress the next generation of women.

 

[Marisa]

There's no response to me in your post #89. And by the way, I made a typo in my original comment, which I've corrected. It may help if understanding was an issue.

 

[Godobeyer]

There's no response to me in your post #89. And by the way, I made a typo in my original comment, which I've corrected. It may help if understanding was an issue.

sorry i quote it before i reply , now i fixed it

 

[Godobeyer]

Women aren't "obligated" over here. We have a plethora of old white men sitting in our highest offices who would love for US women to be confined to their kitchens, pregnant and raising their husband's children.

I don't mean by "obligation" by force , i meant the hard of life which let most women in West to go out to work .

then Where is problem if women stay home to be in kitchen or be pregnant or raising her kids , if her husband is could work instead ?

What we have that it doesn't appear that you have is many more people, women included, who want to be seen as equals of men, not ornaments of men. I don't exist to raise children and screw my husband, pick up his laundry, cook his meals and do nothing he doesn't give me permission to do. I have my own goals, and I happen to live in a society where that is encouraged. The simple fact of the matter is that your culture probably will never know what women want because you don't think it's relevant to ask them. Ever. You geared this thread toward men, after all, to find out what kind of women they prefer. A better question would have been "what kind of woman do you want to be?" But that thought process is foreign to you. So long as your culture defines female value as what they need to feel "obligated" to do, you're always going to only achieve half of your potential. Because half of your population is sitting at home cooking, cleaning, and raising the next generation of men to suppress the next generation of women.

i don't mean to geared this thread toward men , i just discuss to know Western opinions about this issue , that's it

let's suppose that woman goes out to work and her boss order her a job , so she will accept with big smile (cos of money) , maybe she cooked or serve in Hotel , so when she back at home, she don't cook or serve for her home ?

 

[Marisa]

SO you care about being reported to police , let's suppose there is not report ? you will inform him ?

I'm not sure I understand your response, or that you understand mine in the first place. If a person simply disappears without telling anyone, a loved one will take out a "missing person's report" with the police. This is usually done when the missing person leaves their home but doesn't show up to wherever it is they were heading, like work or school. The person filing the reports assumes that the missing person has been kidnapped, or possibly killed. Because even over here in the west, if we go on vacation, we tell the people in our lives.

btw i meant by inform , short trip , neighborhood , family , friends[/quote
Do you mean to the grocery store, in which case no I generally don't report those movements to my husband, or to Las Vegas for a weekend of drinking and gambling, in which case yes, I'd let my husband know I'll be gone for 48 hours?

of course there is a divorce .
indeed some women and even some men the marriage is worth zero .

maybe , that's depend on her acts and the mentality of her family and society .

of course she can

That's good to know. Though even if your wife divorced you after cheating on you, I'd think her family was crap if they shunned her. She's their family, after all.

i am talking about my country (Algeria ) here the Husband if he divorce his wife , he should give her a home to live with her/his kids , he should not kick her out the house .
and he should pay for them a monthly expense .

That is much the same as it is here.

it's ok , there is no obligation to force woman to marry or not to work .

and if she get married she manage this issue with her husband , "work or stay home"

millions of women are working as teachers and doctors ....etc

Cool!

I think at the end of the day what we have is a different opinion as to what the words "obedience" and "rebellious" mean, and it sounds to me like what you want in a wife is someone who won't challenge what you perceive as your authority as head of the household. Maybe you feel like this is the way it should be for religious reasons, I don't know because you haven't said. Here, many christians believe devoutly in a bible that tells them women are to be "submissive" and should not hold positions of authority over men, but most of them overlook those passages. Some of the most devoutly religious women over here will kick a man to the curb who doesn't value her objections and goes ahead and does what he wants anyway. We consider that to be a sign of immaturity, when you don't value your partner's input, and most women over here won't tolerate holding a subordinate position in their marriages for very long.

 

[Marisa]

I don't mean by "obligation" by force , i meant the hard of life which let most women in West to go out to work .

Yes, unfortunately we have economic conditions over here which almost necessitate a dual income family. Still, many women (such as myself) choose to work because we want to. I don't need to have a job, but I work because I like to.

then Where is problem if women stay home to be in kitchen or be pregnant or raising her kids , if her husband is could work instead ?

It's not a problem, as long as that's truly her choice. I did it for a long time, until my daughter entered middle school. Now I work.

i don't mean to geared this thread toward men , i just discuss to know Western opinions about this issue , that's it

Don't misunderstand, it's not a problem that your question was geared toward men, I just wanted to point out that it didn't occur to you to ask how women feel about these things.

let's suppose that woman goes out to work and her boss order her a job , so she will accept with big smile (cos of money) , maybe she cooked or serve in Hotel , so when she back at home, she don't cook or serve for her home ?

If you spent 8-10 hours a day bent over a hot stove for your job would you want to come home and do it some more? That question betrays that you think a woman's role is to serve, either people or you. What if that woman is an astronaut, and she's just spent 8-10 hours working in a space suit at the bottom of a pool training for her next mission in space? Would she still be expected to get your damn dinner on the table by 5pm?

 

[Godobeyer]

I'm not sure I understand your response, or that you understand mine in the first place. If a person simply disappears without telling anyone, a loved one will take out a "missing person's report" with the police. This is usually done when the missing person leaves their home but doesn't show up to wherever it is they were heading, like work or school. The person filing the reports assumes that the missing person has been kidnapped, or possibly killed. Because even over here in the west, if we go on vacation, we tell the people in our lives.

I know about police reports , i understood you

I meant if there is no police report , so you probably would not tell him for every trip ?

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, unfortunately we have economic conditions over here which almost necessitate a dual income family. Still, many women (such as myself) choose to work because we want to. I don't need to have a job, but I work because I like to.


It's not a problem, as long as that's truly her choice. I did it for a long time, until my daughter entered middle school. Now I work.

But some women prefer that man who take reponsibality , and they take reponsibality to manage home too .

I mean some work for her , do you know what i mean .

inspite ecnomic conditions in West is better than us , you goes to work , because you need to work to live .

what happened here , the husband or son (grown) worked for him self and his family .

Don't misunderstand, it's not a problem that your question was geared toward men, I just wanted to point out that it didn't occur to you to ask how women feel about these things.

ok

just maybe in chat we will expand more in other things of this subject .

If you spent 8-10 hours a day bent over a hot stove for your job would you want to come home and do it some more?
That question betrays that you think a woman's role is to serve, either people or you. What if that woman is an astronaut, and she's just spent 8-10 hours working in a space suit at the bottom of a pool training for her next mission in space? Would she still be expected to get your damn dinner on the table by 5pm?

IF my wife was tired or sick, i will not hesite to help her and care about her , this is steorytype about Muslims men is completely wrong .

 

[Marisa]

I know about police reports , i understood you

I meant if there is no police report , so you probably would not tell him for every trip ?

If I plan to be gone for an extended period of time, such as on a vacation, yes I let my family know. This is not obedience, this is basic respect. I do not want them to worry that I have been kidnapped or murdered. In the course of my day, I generally do not tell my husband everywhere I'm going unless it's somewhere out of my general routine. If I'm going out with friends, I'll let him know I won't be home at my usual time. What I don't do is ask his permission. What he doesn't do is presume permission is his to give or not give as he sees fit.

 

[Marisa]

IF my wife was tired or sick, i will not hesite to help her and care about her , this is steorytype about Muslims men is completely wrong .

That's good to know but that's not called obedience, it's called basic respect. There are many couples in the west who order their lives differently. In some families, the wife earns more than the husband and their lives tend to revolve around her job. Sometimes to the point of the husband staying home and taking care of the house and kids.

There are a lot of stereotypes about eastern and western cultures that could stand to be corrected. Like your assumption that jealously doesn't exist in the west.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So you though obedient wife is like a Robot ?

so we all just as robots to our boss during job time ?!!!

if you think that a man is the boss of his wife, then I pity your wife.