If you have to choose between two types of women (rebellion vs obedience)

[Marisa]

I will not force my wife to do something ,that she could not do.

That's good to know. You should examine how what goes on in a brain this isn't your wife's could possibly be your wife's responsibility. It's one thing to hold a person of any gender responsible for what goes on in their own minds. It is quite something else to make any person of any gender responsible for what goes on in someone else's mind.

that's not condition , but if she wears sexy clothes , she may harassement boys or be haraseement .

No, you are wrong. Nothing any person of any gender wears can reasonably or rationally be considered harassment. When you interpret someone else's clothing choices as of a harassing nature to you, what you are saying is that it is unreasonable for you to be expected to be responsible for your own responses. You do NOT have the right to demand that someone dress differently to preserve your delicate nature. This is proved by the fact that you consider a woman's clothing choices as conveying some sort of unspoken message to men in your culture. Harassment is unacceptable among civilized folk whether it's of a sexual nature or not. Mature people do not harass others. Period.

this is may debatable subject .
thats natural instinct problem .
so if she be more attractive by wearing sexy clothes, she may responsible for that reactions . and she may active the lusty of others .

This is NOT debatable among intelligent and mature individuals. Unless a woman says the following words to you "I want to have sex with you" it is not permissible for you to assume that her clothing choices are conveying that message subliminally. Nothing but a spoken invitation to sex is EVER an invitation to sex. Period. When you say that a woman is ever responsible for the sexual urges of the men around her, what you are saying is that women's bodies are available for purchase and that sexual harassment or rape are only wrong because the woman who was sexually harassed or raped has already been purchased by her husband. This is what leads to women being raped to death, as happened in India. This is called "rape culture", in which women's bodies are considered public property.

I don't get this one

It means that if you lack the personal self control to not rape or harass a woman whom you deem dressed "sexy" then you will only ever be the one who is depraved. Not her.

i don't understand this too , but i guess you mean , that we abuse our wives sexual ?
how ?

I don't know if you abuse your wife sexually, but if she is not allowed to say "no" to sex with you, then yes you abuse her sexually.

who assault her ? here may women whom assault us sexually

Before I respond to this, please describe what typically happens when a woman sexually assaults a man in your culture.

seems there are many steortypes and exagerate about our women in West .

I haven't seen any stereotypes yet. I think women in your culture are oppressed, but you seem to think this is completely acceptable.

 

[Kirran]

]

English is my third language , after Arabic , French .

you said " wife could be rebellious because " her husband is powerful .

so it's in some cases wife could be rebellious , inspite that her husband is gental and kind man .

Fantastic. One more and you're an official polyglot.

No, rebellion can only take place if one is more powerful. That's the meaning of the term.

 

[Godobeyer]

That's good to know. You should examine how what goes on in a brain this isn't your wife's could possibly be your wife's responsibility. It's one thing to hold a person of any gender responsible for what goes on in their own minds. It is quite something else to make any person of any gender responsible for what goes on in someone else's mind.

the marriage it's self is reponsibility in general .

in most of cases , here the couple is divide the reponsibility , the man is go out to work , and woman reponsibility is her room or her house .

No, you are wrong. Nothing any person of any gender wears can reasonably or rationally be considered harassment. When you interpret someone else's clothing choices as of a harassing nature to you, what you are saying is that it is unreasonable for you to be expected to be responsible for your own responses. You do NOT have the right to demand that someone dress differently to preserve your delicate nature. This is proved by the fact that you consider a woman's clothing choices as conveying some sort of unspoken message to men in your culture. Harassment is unacceptable among civilized folk whether it's of a sexual nature or not. Mature people do not harass others. Period.



This is NOT debatable among intelligent and mature individuals. Unless a woman says the following words to you "I want to have sex with you" it is not permissible for you to assume that her clothing choices are conveying that message subliminally. Nothing but a spoken invitation to sex is EVER an invitation to sex. Period. When you say that a woman is ever responsible for the sexual urges of the men around her, what you are saying is that women's bodies are available for purchase and that sexual harassment or rape are only wrong because the woman who was sexually harassed or raped has already been purchased by her husband. This is what leads to women being raped to death, as happened in India. This is called "rape culture", in which women's bodies are considered public property.

It means that if you lack the personal self control to not rape or harass a woman whom you deem dressed "sexy" then you will only ever be the one who is depraved. Not her.

indeed if the woman wear sexy (nudity closes , or tight or visible ) that considere harassement against men .

and harassement of men against women , could be increased depend the sexiest of her clothes ,
inspite her clothes is not considered much in some societies .

you can't defeat natural (instinct) .

the rape and harassement is everywhere . it's not Indian issue .

I don't know if you abuse your wife sexually, but if she is not allowed to say "no" to sex with you, then yes you abuse her sexually.

btw i am single .

I am sure i will not abuse my wife sexually

Before I respond to this, please describe what typically happens when a woman sexually assaults a man in your culture.

that's was kiding , i just want to tell you that even our woman could run after the men , to marry or to make sex with them .

I haven't seen any stereotypes yet. I think women in your culture are oppressed, but you seem to think this is completely acceptable.

that's your opinion .
you need to ask Muslim woman , or visit a Muslim country to know more .

I mean experience is better than thoughts .

 

[Godobeyer]

Fantastic. One more and you're an official polyglot.

No, rebellion can only take place if one is more powerful. That's the meaning of the term.

thanks

so it's my bad , it's my lack of language then .

so i am curious why most of voters choose the rebellion ?

 

[Kirran]

thanks

so it's my bad , it's my lack of language then .

so i am curious why most of voters choose the rebellion ?

No worries.

Because they generally take it as the opposite of meek and subservient - strong-willed, independent etc.

 

[illykitty]

thanks

so it's my bad , it's my lack of language then .

so i am curious why most of voters choose the rebellion ?

I think it's because people have a different interpretation of the words. They think you mean by "obedient" a woman who is dependent, can't think for herself and never says no. And rebellion to mean a woman who thinks for herself, may say no to certain things and is independent. @Kirran made a good post.

I guess it's because people don't assume that you meant rebellion to mean someone who is disrespectful and cheats... I mean, hardly anyone would want this, but that doesn't mean rebellion to people, it means someone who is disrespectful. Rebellion isn't always meant as a bad thing here, it can be good, if you define it as saying no to something you don't want or is against your will.

Thing is though, I think most women in the west aren't one or the other, I think most of us fall somewhere in between and most of us expect to be treated equally by our partners. So there isn't anyone to obey, my husband doesn't obey me and I don't obey him. We have a respectful relationship, based on equality and we know the boundaries of what is acceptable and what isn't. We don't need to obey each other, it's just something you do without being asked to.

Do you understand? I can type some of it in French if you struggle to understand, it's my first language so if you understand French better than English, I have no problem doing this for you.

 

[Marisa]

the marriage it's self is reponsibility in general .

Yes, it is. But that does not mean that everyone who enters into a marriage is a responsible person. For example, if you expect your spouse to do as you say regardless of her opinions or objections, your are immature and irresponsible. To blame this on your culture is just and example of how you are irresponsible and immature. If you cannot come to an agreement of what needs to be done without demanding compliance regardless of her objections, then you need to examine whether or not your demands and expectations are reasonable. Reasonable people come to reasonable conclusions at pretty much the same rate, after all. I haven't heard anything from you yet that meets my bar of reasonable expectations because as far as you are concerned women have specific rolls within your culture and are not allowed to deviate from that roll, and your insistence that when a woman is harassed, it's her fault.

in most of cases , here the couple is divide the reponsibility , the man is go out to work , and woman reponsibility is her room or her house .

Okay.

indeed if the woman wear sexy (nudity closes , or tight or visible ) that considere harassement against men .

It is not harassment. She is not assaulting you with her clothing choices. YOU are assaulting her by forcing your attentions on her without being invited. As I have previously stated, nothing but an invitation to sex from the woman is an invitation to sex regardless of how she's dressed or IF she's dressed. Her body is not your possession, even if you married her. Her body belongs to her and SHE gets to decide what happens to it.

If you and the men of your culture are so weak minded that you cannot control your urge to be attentive to a woman because you feel she's dressed inappropriately, then I have nothing but pity for you. You will forever be led around by your most basic urges, and no matter how you force your women to dress, you will always find that you are unable to control yourself. And will always be because you don't expect anything of yourself. You don't expect yourself to be responsible. You don't expect yourself to be mature. You don't expect yourself to be reasonable.

and harassement of men against women , could be increased depend the sexiest of her clothes ,
inspite her clothes is not considered much in some societies .

That's not a woman's fault. That's YOUR fault because your expectations for the men in your culture are too low.

you can't defeat natural (instinct) .

Yes you can. I do it every day when I don't go out and rape a man. My husband does it every day when he doesn't go out and rape a woman. Millions of men do it every day when they don't rape someone.

the rape and harassement is everywhere . it's not Indian issue .

That's very true. Because almost every culture believes that women's bodies are public property to some extent. And the cultures which insist that if they dress a woman in a bed sheet they can control the reactions of men are delusional.

btw i am single .

I am sure i will not abuse my wife sexually


that's was kiding , i just want to tell you that even our woman could run after the men , to marry or to make sex with them .

It's interesting in it's own right that you feel you have to say that in your culture women can pursue men they are attracted to, when what I was what harassment looks like.

that's your opinion .
you need to ask Muslim woman , or visit a Muslim country to know more .

I mean experience is better than thoughts .

Yes, it is my opinion.

Tell me, what do you think of the way I talk to you. Do you feel like I overstep some boundaries of how a woman is expected to behave?

 

[Godobeyer]

I think it's because people have a different interpretation of the words. They think you mean by "obedient" a woman who is dependent, can't think for herself and never says no. And rebellion to mean a woman who thinks for herself, may say no to certain things and is independent. @Kirran made a good post.

SO i am make the marriage looks like occupation of country lol .

I guess it's because people don't assume that you meant rebellion to mean someone who is disrespectful and cheats... I mean, hardly anyone would want this, but that doesn't mean rebellion to people, it means someone who is disrespectful. Rebellion isn't always meant as a bad thing here, it can be good, if you define it as saying no to something you don't want or is against your will.

I mean when wife , disprespect her husband , and may cheat on him , always argue with him for simple issue .leave her responsibilty in with her home (if she had duty) .

Thing is though, I think most women in the west aren't one or the other, I think most of us fall somewhere in between and most of us expect to be treated equally by our partners. So there isn't anyone to obey, my husband doesn't obey me and I don't obey him. We have a respectful relationship, based on equality and we know the boundaries of what is acceptable and what isn't. We don't need to obey each other, it's just something you do without being asked to.

indeed there is difference in way of life as you know , and indeed there is steorytype about Muslims women in Western Image .

is really that husband in West (in general) , don't care about his wife clothes , or if she is in relation with her ex-friend , or if she goes alone for trip ?

Do you understand? I can type some of it in French if you struggle to understand, it's my first language so if you understand French better than English, I have no problem doing this for you.

thank you , that's kind of you .

J'ai presque le même niveau que l'anglais .

If i need help i will contact you

 

[Kirran]

is really that husband in West (in general) , don't care about his wife clothes , or if she is in relation with her ex-friend , or if she goes alone for trip ?

Pretty much.

Not that men don't care, necessarily, although they generally wouldn't on these issues you rause. Just that the Western ideal is that women can make up their own minds, and that husbands trust their wives enough not to shag the first guy they're alone in a room with.

By Western standards, your ideas of marriage are misogynist and abusive.

 

[Shad]

indeed if the woman wear sexy (nudity closes , or tight or visible ) that considere harassement against men .

and harassement of men against women , could be increased depend the sexiest of her clothes ,
inspite her clothes is not considered much in some societies .

you can't defeat natural (instinct) .

the rape and harassement is everywhere . it's not Indian issue .

This is solely a problem of how people are raise. There are two issues within this video and it's message. One is that women are responsible for others actions. The other is that men are not responsible for their own actions based on how someone dresses. This is in part due to how media uses women but it is also a hold over from patriarch based societies in which women are treated as objects. It is "victim" blaming rather than hold men accountable. It also ignore that these men were raised to not respect women as people and proper decorum. Keep in mind your video has less than 3 minutes of men harassing this women out of 5 hours. This is called sampling bias due to the 4 hours and 57 minutes we do not see. It is only counting the hits, not the misses. If you watch carefully she passes multiple men within a few seconds but at times only 1 says anything at all. For example at the 50 second mark, ish, one man says "Wow" with two others say nothing. A few seconds later there is a large group with only one man saying anything at all. Again this is sampling bias. Although harassment of women is a know fact your video is a very poor example due to it's bias representation.

I would like to point out your sources other videos such as this one

He uses this exotic flare, Arabic, to pick up women. Your sources does not seem very consistent nor reliable.

 

[Politesse]

I think all of this talk of "East vs. West" is really weird, and certainly misleading. There are many, many perspectives on gender in the West, to the point that in my country (the US) it is very likely that our next presidential election will be heavily defined by conflicting views on sex and gender relations, to a large degree. My maternal grandfather, for instance certainly would be nodding along to godobeyer's posts, and he is proud of my grandmother for being what he calls a "Proverbs wife" referring to a passage in the Bible that espouses similar values. Meanwhile, my paternal grandmother divorced her husband when I was ten, no longer willing to accept his many infidelities, and carved out a successful (and single) career for herself as a probation officer for many years. I'm proud of both parts of my heritage, and they are certainly both part of "the West" if there is a "the West". But when it comes to what I personally want and value, I clearly fell more to my paternal grandmother's way of seeing things.

And I know for a fact that the "East" is just as culturally diverse. Those terms are meaningless, and holding anyone in this conversation up as an exemplar of "Western" or "Eastern" values is nothing but stereotyping. No, being an American doesn't mean you're a "liberal", and being a Muslim doesn't mean you live in the "East" and abuse your wife. If you choose to be or do those things, you're responsible for that. You may have been raised in a certain way, but it surely was not the same way as everyone else in your society. Acknowledge the role of culture - that's a good thing - but don't make culture simpler than it really is, or use it as a screen against personal responsibility.

 

[Deathbydefault]

My brother in law married a woman half his age (he's in his 40's, she her early 20's) as best I can tell so he could get a woman not quite comfortable enough in her own skin to assert her will. I suppose after watching my marriage to his brother for nearly 2 decades, he wanted a wifey more like his mommy, who allowed her husband to **** away their life savings on a luxury service business in the middle of a recession, despite knowing her husband was a **** poor money manager. Such antics would not have occurred in my marriage.

Yikes.
I was using "obedient" in the context that my girlfriend doesn't feel the need not to do something I ask, because I'm asking and not ordering.
Your brother in law seemed to be using it in the context of, "be submissive so I can be stupid".

I feel like "obedient" is too strong of a word here, as is "rebellious".
Maybe "acquiescent" and "self-sufficient"? Not sure.

 

[Marisa]

Yikes.
I was using "obedient" in the context that my girlfriend doesn't feel the need not to do something I ask, because I'm asking and not ordering.
Your brother in law seemed to be using it in the context of, "be submissive so I can be stupid".

I feel like "obedient" is too strong of a word here, as is "rebellious".
Maybe "acquiescent" and "self-sufficient"? Not sure.

I agree. The OP and pretty much everyone else have different pictures in their heads when these words get bandied about.

 

[Godobeyer]

woman is harassed, it's her fault.

not all of time her fault .


Okay.

It is not harassment. She is not assaulting you with her clothing choices. YOU are assaulting her by forcing your attentions on her without being invited. As I have previously stated, nothing but an invitation to sex from the woman is an invitation to sex regardless of how she's dressed or IF she's dressed. Her body is not your possession, even if you married her. Her body belongs to her and SHE gets to decide what happens to it.

we seems are disagree on this , If a women wears sexy and attractive clothes that harassement against men .

If you and the men of your culture are so weak minded that you cannot control your urge to be attentive to a woman because you feel she's dressed inappropriately, then I have nothing but pity for you. You will forever be led around by your most basic urges, and no matter how you force your women to dress, you will always find that you are unable to control yourself. And will always be because you don't expect anything of yourself. You don't expect yourself to be responsible. You don't expect yourself to be mature. You don't expect yourself to be reasonable.

When there is no women harassed or raped in WEST when you would be right .

That's not a woman's fault. That's YOUR fault because your expectations for the men in your culture are too low.


Yes you can. I do it every day when I don't go out and rape a man. My husband does it every day when he doesn't go out and rape a woman. Millions of men do it every day when they don't rape someone.

rape is crime , that's other big story , i am discuss harassement of men against women ,and inverse .

It's interesting in it's own right that you feel you have to say that in your culture women can pursue men they are attracted to, when what I was what harassment looks like.

Yes some of our women are haressement us , and so inverse happened .

Yes, it is my opinion.

Tell me, what do you think of the way I talk to you. Do you feel like I overstep some boundaries of how a woman is expected to behave?

Opinion , supported by life experience is better .


this thread make me convinced that will never could marry Western woman, because our marriage will failed .

 

[Marisa]

this thread make me convinced that will never could marry Western woman, because our marriage will failed .

So long as you think women can harass you with their clothing choices and that something about what she wears gives you permission to behave inappropriately to her, then yeah, it's best you stick to women who don't expect to be allowed to have thoughts of their own and don't object too much to life at the end of your leash. You don't want a wife, you want a pet.

 

[Pudding]

Hello all


I am just want to know your opinion about if you want to marry a woman , your have just two choices ,

1- the first one : is very obedience , and calm , sensitive ( obedience )

2 -second one is rebellion , reject your requests ,she had strong personality than you ,(rebellion )


+ bonus questions : what is your type you prefer to marry ( i mean the caracteres of your futur woman in mental not body) ?

Is the obedience of that wive you mean obedience to [all/every] [order/demand/opinion] of the husband?

Is the rebellion of that wive you mean rebellion to [all/every] [order/demand/opinion] of the husband?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'll take the strong one. If I want something obedient, I'll buy a puppy. My wife is my partner, not my property.

Well...it took a while to convince my puppy that pissing on the floor was a no-no. My wife seemed to know this instinctively, so perhaps she's the more obedient of the two?

(Oh man, if she ever reads this am I gonna be in trouble...!)

 

[Father Heathen]

Godobeyer, this may have already been asked, but are you - or would you be - an obedient husband or a rebellious husband?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

some question to you Penguin

If your wife want to work in Bar until 4 am, but you disagree , what you will do, if she insisting ?

A bar until 4am?
Phhht...my wife has worked in an acute mental health ward, and did night shift.

She knew I didn't like it, and she moved on to other aspects of mental health once she'd 'done her time', but she knew the risks, dangers and industry much better than I did. That's kinda the point. Whatever my feelings, I had to trust her judgement in this matter. An assumption that I knew better than her would have been paternalistic crap, since I didn't.

 

[Godobeyer]

So long as you think women can harass you with their clothing choices and that something about what she wears gives you permission to behave inappropriately to her, then yeah, it's best you stick to women who don't expect to be allowed to have thoughts of their own and don't object too much to life at the end of your leash. You don't want a wife, you want a pet.

do you mean our women are pets !!!