I'm now a vegetarian!!!

[UnTheist]

The universe is hostile, so impersonal.
Devour to survive.
So it is, so it's always been...

 

[Jaymes]

I don't see the point in causing unnecessary suffering because I think something tastes yummy when I'm perfectly capable of an alternative where that doesn't happen.

 

[darkpenguin]

I don't see the point in causing unnecessary suffering because I think something tastes yummy when I'm perfectly capable of an alternative where that doesn't happen.

My point exactly!
At the end of te day it's animals being slaughtered for our unnecessary consumption all because it 'tastes nice'.
The woman in the video made me cringe when it sounded like she was trying to convince herself that the process is humane!
To me the pig got the worse deal, they have to wait a good 5 minutes before there heads are removed, who on earth is that woman to say what or what not a pig can feel after being stunned?

And in answer to an earlier question, no I would not eat meat again even if there was a more 'humane' way of killing an animal for consumption!

 

[Radio Frequency X]

True, there are no rights and wrongs on the subject it's all down to preferance.

I just think the videos are a good eduacational tool for any meat eater, for me it had such an imapact that I have changed my view on meat and the process but I would be kidding myself if I thought that everyone should agree with me!

The videos simply don't make an impression on me. Have you ever seen the way a lion rips its prey apart? Or a bear? Or a bunch of Hyenas? Killing is savage. Getting food is savage. Vegetarians prefer killing plants because plants don't have "feelings". Its a well-intended choice I suppose, I just don't appreciate the difference.

 

[Mr. Hair]

I don't see the point in causing unnecessary suffering because I think something tastes yummy when I'm perfectly capable of an alternative where that doesn't happen.

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. After all, if no one ate meat then none of those animals killed would have ever existed in the first place, and I'm guessing that for at least some aspects of their lives most weren't experiencing undue suffering or anguish.

So it's a little more complex then meat eating = bad. Indeed, under certain circumstances one could theoretically hold and maintain the argument that eating meat is in fact the more compassionate option, should the positive experiences outweigh the negative over the entirety of the average animal's life. (As, after all, the average animal in question would have experienced nothing had it not been destined to be killed for human consumption)

Sadly, I doubt that such circumstances are widely held and practiced in a goodly amount of farms, abattoirs and whatnot's in this day and age.

(Finally, it is important to note that many of the animals death throes under the scenarios we're witnessed will, whilst rather disturbing at first glance, have been carried out with no conscious action or reaction on behalf of the animals themselves)

I'm certainly glad that I watched those videos, as I'm now more motivated to continue and extend various caveats I already held on my consumption of animal meat. (Which mainly constituted the gradual phasing in of meat products of which I can reasonably conclude the above theory in place of those which I can not)

By the by, if anyone is interested in finding out more about the other side of the coin on these matters, I recommend reading up on the field of plant neurobiology. Given it's relative... Well, new-ness, I'm not entirely sure how much of it I can assume is authoritative, but it certainly throws up some interesting perspectives on the whole debate.

 

[darkpenguin]

The videos simply don't make an impression on me. Have you ever seen the way a lion rips its prey apart? Or a bear? Or a bunch of Hyenas? Killing is savage. Getting food is savage. Vegetarians prefer killing plants because plants don't have "feelings". Its a well-intended choice I suppose, I just don't appreciate the difference.

You seem to be missing the point that the animals you have noted need meat to survive, survive being the operative word here!
We really don't!

 

[Hema]

You seem to be missing the point that the animals you have noted need meat to survive, survive being the operative word here!
We really don't!

Exactly!!! Our bodies are even designed differently. See my previous post.

A lion's digestive tract is three times shorter than ours. They eliminate the meat before it becomes petrified. When we eat it meat it rots in the system and becomes petrified. Our blood feeds off this toxicity. If you leave a tomato and a piece of raw meat on your kitchen counter overnight and check them both the next morning, the meat will already be decaying.

In addition, predators such as lions naturally salivate when they see their prey walking by. We don't salivate when we say a live lamb walking by. Most of us will say, "Oh how cute!" If you give a little child an apple and a rabbit, the child will eat the apple and play with the rabbit. A lion has claws designed to rip an animal's flesh and fangs designed to tear apart the meat apart. Of course all the animals who feast on other animals eat the meat raw. Human's are the only species who kill the animals with weapons and must cook the meat before it is eaten. So what about prehistoric people? They could not have eaten meat before fire was discoverd. Unless they ate it raw. I don't think that there are many people who will salivate at the sight of raw bloody flesh. Unless you're a vampire of course.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

You seem to be missing the point that the animals you have noted need meat to survive, survive being the operative word here!
We really don't!

I need a healthy mix of fruits, vegetables, and meats to be healthy. I want to do more than merely survive. I want to be healthy. So I eat a variety of foods and everything in moderation.

 

[Hema]

I need a healthy mix of fruits, vegetables, and meats to be healthy. I want to do more than merely survive. I want to be healthy. So I eat a variety of foods and everything in moderation.

Of couse you can eat everything in moderation. However, I am a vegetarian and very healthy. I'm 25 and look like seventeen (which is not good for me at all times). My dad is fifty but looks like thirty-something. Vegetarians are very healthy, probably more so. The antioxidants in fruits and veggies protect us against cancer. Plus they have fiber. Meat does not have these two things. Meat has the bad LDL cholesterol. LDL cholesterol only comes from animal and dairy products. I'm not saying that if you eat meat in moderation you can't still be healthy. You can. I'm saying that vegetarians are very healthy people.

 

[James the Persian]

I'm not a vegetarian, I've killed things myself, and even I think it matters how the animal died. Even if you don't care about the animal for itself - though you might want to consider how you'd prefer to die - an animal that dies in pain makes for really bad meat. Tough as boots. The more stress, the higher the chew factor.

This I agree with entirely. I was once a vegetarian until I realised that it didn't do the animals any good at all. Now I'm vegan over 50% of the year for religious reasons and the rest of time I source my meat very carefully indeed. In my opinion the way to improve animal welfare is to increase demand for humanely produced meat and, much as I sympathise with vegetarians, vegatarianism and veganism simply don't do that. (Oh and I've killed and been present at the killing of animals, too, just as an aside).

James

 

[James the Persian]

I don't see the point in causing unnecessary suffering because I think something tastes yummy when I'm perfectly capable of an alternative where that doesn't happen.

But do you think that the alternative doesn't involve death and suffering? You have the use of pesticides and fertilizers, the clearing of land for farming, draining of wetlands, loss of natural variance in the environment, meaning reductions of foodstuffs and habitats. Just because consuming only vegetables doesn't directly harm animals doesn't mean that it doesn't cause a great deal of harm indirectly. Of course you could advocate a return to hunter gatherer lifestyle, but then you'd pretty much have to eat meat. There really is no way, short of suicide, to avoid harming animals.

James

 

[Hema]

This I agree with entirely. I was once a vegetarian until I realised that it didn't do the animals any good at all. Now I'm vegan over 50% of the year for religious reasons and the rest of time I source my meat very carefully indeed. In my opinion the way to improve animal welfare is to increase demand for humanely produced meat and, much as I sympathise with vegetarians, vegatarianism and veganism simply don't do that. (Oh and I've killed and been present at the killing of animals, too, just as an aside).

James

I understand but it makes a difference to me. I can sit and enjoy my meal without thinking about how much suffering my meal went through when it was alive. If all the vegetarians became meat eaters the demand would increase and the supply will increase to meet that demand. Even if vegetarians make a small difference, I am happy with that. Even if it's one animal - that one animal will be greatful for its life. Just like if many people are buried under a collapsed building - say all of them died except for one. The rescue team will do all they can to save that one person because that one person's life is valuable. There is a story I remember. Hundreds of starfish had washed up on a beach. One boy started taking them up one by one and threw them back into the sea. Someone passing asked him what he was doing. There were so many on the beach and there was no way that he alone could make a difference. The boy picked up a starfish and threw it into the sea. He said, "You see that starfish? I just made a difference to that starfish."

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Of couse you can eat everything in moderation. However, I am a vegetarian and very healthy. I'm 25 and look like seventeen (which is not good for me at all times). My dad is fifty but looks like thirty-something. Vegetarians are very healthy, probably more so. The antioxidants in fruits and veggies protect us against cancer. Plus they have fiber. Meat does not have these two things. Meat has the bad LDL cholesterol. LDL cholesterol only comes from animal and dairy products. I'm not saying that if you eat meat in moderation you can't still be healthy. You can. I'm saying that vegetarians are very healthy people.

Many of the vegetarians I know are sickly because they don't get all the vitamins and minerals that they need from what they eat. Its not that vegetarians can't be healthy, its just that it takes them a lot more effort to get all the nutrients they need to be healthy, and if they don't take the time to figure out how to get those nutrients, they'll look sickly. Just as someone who eats nothing but McDonald's burgers will become obese.

 

[Hema]

But do you think that the alternative doesn't involve death and suffering? You have the use of pesticides and fertilizers, the clearing of land for farming, draining of wetlands, loss of natural variance in the environment, meaning reductions of foodstuffs and habitats. Just because consuming only vegetables doesn't directly harm animals doesn't mean that it doesn't cause a great deal of harm indirectly. Of course you could advocate a return to hunter gatherer lifestyle, but then you'd pretty much have to eat meat. There really is no way, short of suicide, to avoid harming animals.

James

He just wants to cause them as little pain as possible. It's like if someone has cancer and is undergoing chemo. Say the person might not survive. The person's family wouldn't say - let's not bother he/she is going to die anyway. Let's give him/her euthanasia.

 

[Hema]

Many of the vegetarians I know are sickly because they don't get all the vitamins and minerals that they need from what they eat. Its not that vegetarians can't be healthy, its just that it takes them a lot more effort to get all the nutrients they need to be healthy, and if they don't take the time to figure out how to get those nutrients, they'll look sickly. Just as someone who eats nothing but McDonald's burgers will become obese.

Strange, I'm not sickly. At my previous place of employment, everyone caught the flu but me. This is because fruits and veggies have antioxidants that build the immune system. I know many vegetarians who are perfectly healthy.

 

[James the Persian]

I understand but it makes a difference to me. I can sit and enjoy my meal without thinking about how much suffering my meal went through when it was alive. If all the vegetarians became meat eaters the demand would increase and the supply will increase to meet that demand. Even if vegetarians make a small difference, I am happy with that. Even if it's one animal - that one animal will be greatful for its life. Just like if many people are buried under a collapsed building - say all of them died except for one. The rescue team will do all they can to save that one person because that one person's life is valuable. There is a story I remember. Hundreds of starfish had washed up on a beach. One boy started taking them up one by one and threw them back into the sea. Someone passing asked him what he was doing. There were so many on the beach and there was no way that he alone could make a difference. The boy picked up a starfish and threw it into the sea. He said, "You see that starfish? I just made a difference to that starfish."

Fair enough. I said that I sympathise and I really do but don't kid yourself that producing your meal involved no suffering. It didn't. Similarly, don't kid yourself that modern farming methods notice that someone isn't eating meat - all that happens is the price of meat goes down so that others buy more of it and the contribution of vegetarians to animal welfare effectively becomes nil. I'm not saying this to be mean, that's just how the meat business works. I am certain that by my relatively low consumption of meat and insistance on knowing exactly where what I do eat comes from I make much more of a difference than I did as a vegetarian. People being willing to pay more (much more) for humanely produced meat is something that modern farming does take note of - because at the heart of it it's all about money. Of course, in order to be able to pay so much extra for what you do eat you have to eat far less, but I do that in any case due to my faith. And it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that our dietary practices are extremely healthy indeed.

James

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Strange, I'm not sickly. At my previous place of employment, everyone caught the flu but me. This is because fruits and veggies have antioxidants that build the immune system. I know many vegetarians who are perfectly healthy.

It's just that there is nothing vegetarians get in their diet that people who eat a balanced diet don't receive from theirs. I get tons of antioxidants, all the vitamins I need, all the minerals I need, all the fiber, and all the water my body needs to be healthy. I don't go to doctors and I don't get sick as often as everyone else. When I do get sick, I heal faster.

 

[James the Persian]

Strange, I'm not sickly. At my previous place of employment, everyone caught the flu but me. This is because fruits and veggies have antioxidants that build the immune system. I know many vegetarians who are perfectly healthy.

I do too. Incidentally, they are almost all from Buddhist or Hindu cultures where vegetarianism is ingrained in long tradition. Westerners very frequently fare less well because they attempt to eat 'normal' food but without the meat (often with substitutes like soya). Unfortunately that's nowhere near as healthy as more traditional vegetarian diets and many do end up needing supplements as a result, so I can associate with what he said, whilst seeing that it's only a limited part of the whole picture.

James

 

[Radio Frequency X]

I am certain that by my relatively low consumption of meat and insistance on knowing exactly where what I do eat comes from I make much more of a difference than I did as a vegetarian. People being willing to pay more (much more) for humanely produced meat is something that modern farming does take note of - because at the heart of it it's all about money.

ugh - I've got to spread so more frubals around, but you've got more coming. Excellent points.

 

[Hema]

I do too. Incidentally, they are almost all from Buddhist or Hindu cultures where vegetarianism is ingrained in long tradition. Westerners very frequently fare less well because they attempt to eat 'normal' food but without the meat (often with substitutes like soya). Unfortunately that's nowhere near as healthy as more traditional vegetarian diets and many do end up needing supplements as a result, so I can associate with what he said, whilst seeing that it's only a limited part of the whole picture.

James

You could make a great....wait a minute.....you ARE a moderator. (I knew that).