imagine...

[waitasec]

There are a lot of qualities that can be used for both good and evil. I believe that faith in one's beliefs has to be measured against civility, respect and tolerance for our differences. That's why my faith has led me to become involved in compassionate acts towards people of various belief systems. For instance, as Mormons, my husband and I first sponsored an Eastern Orthodox family from Azerbaijan, who fled for their lives from their Muslim persecutors. A few years later, we sponsored a Bosnian family whose peaceful lives had been completely distroyed by their Christian enemies. Trust me, having been closely acquainted with both of these families, I know the acts of violence than people commit because of their faith. I sincerely hope I was able to show them what my faith means to me and that is was my strong belief in God that motivated me. We hope to sponsor another refugee family this coming spring. We won't know anything about them until perhaps two days before we meet them. If the time were to come when an atheistic family were to have been driven from their homes because of their lack of belief, we would do the same thing.

let me ask you this, would you have been able to do these awesome things without faith? correct me if i'm wrong, but people do good things for goodness sake.

Actually, I think He wants us to learn to get along. We just don't seem to be doing a very good job of it. When it gets right down to it, there is not one living soul who knows for sure that he has picked the right religion (if he is religious) or that he is right in denying the existance of God.

which means we are only human and we are always trying to progress. otherwise we women wouldn't be able to be doing what we are doing now...

Most of the time I am. When I'm pushed over the edge, though, try not to be around.

i consider myself warned

Actually, I think that the founders of most of the world's religions were pretty peaceable people. It's their followers who seem to be messed up.

hmmm...not so sure if that can be applied to the monotheistic religions...

 

[Penumbra]

Of course I take ownership of it. Why wouldn't I?

Because I've observed that since my objection, you've gone on various tangents.

This isn't about what you believe and what I believe. It's about pointing out bad methodology and how many religions have a bad habit of showcasing belief without proper reason as a good thing.

All I've done is to ask why in any stretch of the imagination it would make sense to say that people who believe without "seeing" or without "scientific evidence" would be blessed. It's not a statement about how there are multiple ways of figuring stuff out, it's a statement about how people who use less reasonable methods are somehow rewarded for their inability to justify their reasons for belief. This type of mindset is simply not a healthy one.

It's not so much an objection to you as it as an objection to that whole situation which you seem to endorse by bringing it up. So I'm not trying to make this personal; I'm just trying to get to the core of the matter.

I'll tell you what... When you get to Heaven (which I believe you will), take it up with God. I honestly don't have an answer that would satisfy you and I'm really getting tired of doing my best and continuing to fail.

So what are you actually suggesting that we believers do -- simply stop believing? I'm afraid is just isn't that simple. How about we continue to believe and you continue to disbelieve? Is either one of us hurting the other one?

Again, this particular objection of mine isn't about belief; it's about methodology.

Would you say that telling me to take it up with god is taking ownership of what you've presented?

 

[Katzpur]

let me ask you this, would you have been able to do these awesome things without faith?

Honestly, it's hard for me to say. I don't consider them particularly "awesome" because we got a lot out of the associations and have maintained contact with the family from Azerbaijan, even though they have since moved out of state. I will say that my faith in God was a factor. I feel as if He has given me so much that I pretty much have an obligation to do what I can for people with less.

correct me if i'm wrong, but people do good things for goodness sake.

Undoubtedly.

which means we are only human and we are always trying to progress. otherwise we women wouldn't be able to be doing what we are doing now...

Right on!

i consider myself warned

hmmm...not so sure if that can be applied to the monotheistic religions...

I think you're wrong...

Christianity: All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:1)

Islam: No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself. (Sunnah)

Judaism: What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow man. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary. (Talmud, Shabbat 3id)

 

[waitasec]

Christianity: All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:1)

Islam: No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself. (Sunnah)

Judaism: What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow man. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary. (Talmud, Shabbat 3id)

confucius said the same thing...this is not an exclusive idea of monotheism
however, this is absolutely the most important message

which is why i wonder why would anyone that follows this belief--do unto others..., would vote on the inalienable rights of others? would you want someone voting against your innate preference of using your left hand?

this is where the lines get blurred, agreed?

 

[Katzpur]

Because I've observed that since my objection, you've gone on various tangents.

Sorry, that hasn't been my intention.

This isn't about what you believe and what I believe.

I disagree. You appear to believe that scientific evidence is the only evidence that we should trust on any topic. I don't believe that's the case.

All I've done is to ask why in any stretch of the imagination it would make sense to say that people who believe without "seeing" or without "scientific evidence" would be blessed. It's not a statement about how there are multiple ways of figuring stuff out, it's a statement about how people who use less reasonable methods are somehow rewarded for their inability to justify their reasons for belief. This type of mindset is simply not a healthy one.

First of all, I do not believe that there are multiple methods of coming to spiritual knowledge. That's where we differ and will continue to differ, probably indefinitely.

So I'm not trying to make this personal; I'm just trying to get to the core of the matter.

By implying that your mindset is healthy and mine is not, you have indeed made it personal.

Again, this particular objection of mine isn't about belief; it's about methodology.

I agree that it's about methodology, and certain methodologies, however reliable they may be to prove some things, are not reliable to prove other things.

Would you say that telling me to take it up with god is taking ownership of what you've presented?

That comment had absolutely nothing to do with my taking ownership or not taking ownership of what I've presented. It had to do with my frustration in trying to communicate with you. Clearly, you are going to have the last word in this dialogue, so please, be my guest. I have tried my best to explain my point of view. I am incapable of doing any better than I've already done. I'm sorry.

 

[Katzpur]

confucius said the same thing...this is not an exclusive idea of monotheism

So did most of the founders of all of the world's religions, but since I thought you were stating that it was not the case within the monotheistic religions (such as Christianity, Islam and Judaism), those were the only ones I cited as examples.

which is why i wonder why would anyone that follows this belief--do unto others..., would vote on the inalienable rights of others? would you want someone voting against your innate preference of using your left hand?

How do you think I'd feel?

this is where the lines get blurred, agreed?

Agreed.

 

[waitasec]

So did most of the founders of all of the world's religions, but since I thought you were stating that it was not the case within the monotheistic religions (such as Christianity, Islam and Judaism), those were the only ones I cited as examples.

but when you said the followers were messed up, i seem to recall god showing favoritism.
do you see the circular logic?


btw, i gotta go for now....
thanks for being great
until next time

 

[Katzpur]

but when you said the followers were messed up, i seem to recall god showing favoritism.
do you see the circular logic?

Okay, you lost me. You'll have to explain when you get back.

btw, i gotta go for now....
thanks for being great
until next time

Likewise.

 

[Penumbra]

Sorry, that hasn't been my intention.

I disagree. You appear to believe that scientific evidence is the only evidence that we should trust on any topic. I don't believe that's the case.

First of all, I do not believe that there are multiple methods of coming to spiritual knowledge. That's where we differ and will continue to differ, probably indefinitely.

By implying that my mindset is unhealthy, you have indeed made it personal.

I agree that it's about methodology, and certain methodologies, however reliable they may be to prove some things, are not reliable to prove other things.

That comment had absolutely nothing to do with my taking ownership or not taking ownership of what I've presented. It had to do with my frustration in trying to communicate with you. Clearly, you are going to have the last word in this dialogue, so please, be my guest. I have tried my best to explain my point of view. I am incapable of doing any better than I've already done. I'm sorry.

If you want to explain your method for coming to spiritual knowledge, I've got a thread on that specific topic.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...9-process-determining-metaphysical-truth.html

 

[David M]

So you don't believe in God?....and your cause for naysaying is...what?
Scripture?...your fellowman?.....or your own logic?....

I'd guess it would be the lack of evidence outside the self-contradictory bible.

 

[Father Heathen]

Faith would become unnecessary.

Why should it be? Why would god give us the ability to reason and then expect us to forgo its use?

 

[Katzpur]

Why should it be? Why would god give us the ability to reason and then expect us to forgo its use?

I don't think we need to dispense with reason in order to have faith. If something were unreasonable to me, I wouldn't have faith in it. If we had proof for everything we believe, we wouldn't need faith, but from my perspective faith and reason go hand in hand.

For instance, when I compare LDS doctrines to most of the traditional Christian doctrines (concerning everything from the nature of God to salvation), I find LDS doctrines to be more internally consistent and therefore more reasonable. That's one of the main reasons I that I put my faith in LDS doctrines. I'm not dispensing with reason at all; I'm using it to guide the direction of my faith.

 

[waitasec]

Okay, you lost me. You'll have to explain when you get back.

i think this was our discourse;

Actually, I think that the founders of most of the world's religions were pretty peaceable people. It's their followers who seem to be messed up.

hmmm...not so sure if that can be applied to the monotheistic religions...

i should have said, "applied exclusively" to monotheistic religions
my bad...

I think you're wrong...

Christianity: All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:1)

Islam: No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself. (Sunnah)

Judaism: What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow man. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary. (Talmud, Shabbat 3id)

confucius said the same thing...this is not an exclusive idea of monotheism

So did most of the founders of all of the world's religions, but since I thought you were stating that it was not the case within the monotheistic religions (such as Christianity, Islam and Judaism), those were the only ones I cited as examples.

but when you said the followers were messed up, i seem to recall god showing favoritism.
do you see the circular logic?

and what makes up religion? imo, peoples ideals. in which case are always faulty.
why else would god show favoritism? wouldn't everyone be included as gods children or are his children the ones that believe a certain way?

 

[Katzpur]

wouldn't everyone be included as gods children or are his children the ones that believe a certain way?

According to LDS theology, everyone who has ever lived is a son or daughter of God. In that sense, we are all brothers and sisters. (But you know how siblings fight! )

 

[waitasec]

According to LDS theology, everyone who has ever lived is a son or daughter of God. In that sense, we are all brothers and sisters. (But you know how siblings fight! )

good morning
ok,
so...how do you or the LDS doctrine interpret the tower of babel?

 

[Katzpur]

good morning
ok,
so...how do you or the LDS doctrine interpret the tower of babel?

It's your thread, waitasec, but are you sure you want to take it that far off-topic?

 

[waitasec]

It's your thread, waitasec, but are you sure you want to take it that far off-topic?

i guess it's the ADD in me

all kidding aside, i think it has something to do with the thread...and i'll tell you why.

the bible story of the tower of babel is a story where...

"the whole world had one language and a common speech. they wanted to build a tower that would reach up into the heavens...
Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

these people didn't want to be scattered, they wanted to stick together.
but for some reason god thought that to be threatening, why?
you and i both know that the tower would really go nowhere, people have gone to the moon.
so what was god really afraid of? why did he cause confusion?
he wasn't a fan of team work or of unity...he created a system of chaos to keep people from being able to accomplish what they were set out to do by working together.
what sticks out to me as being a very interesting is what god as says;

"If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."

here i see god wants division because he feels threatened, he wants chaos and confusion and for misunderstandings between races causing prejudices...
if we are all gods children, wouldn't god want us to be unified?
isn't that against the ideal of democracy?

so bringing this back to the thread...if god were to be discovered, now that we have been purposefully scattered...would that be the cause for unity or division?

 

[Thief]

i guess it's the ADD in me

all kidding aside, i think it has something to do with the thread...and i'll tell you why.

the bible story of the tower of babel is a story where...

"the whole world had one language and a common speech. they wanted to build a tower that would reach up into the heavens...
Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

these people didn't want to be scattered, they wanted to stick together.
but for some reason god thought that to be threatening, why?
you and i both know that the tower would really go nowhere, people have gone to the moon.
so what was god really afraid of? why did he cause confusion?
he wasn't a fan of team work or of unity...he created a system of chaos to keep people from being able to accomplish what they were set out to do by working together.
what sticks out to me as being a very interesting is what god as says;

"If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."

here i see god wants division because he feels threatened, he wants chaos and confusion and for misunderstandings between races causing prejudices...
if we are all gods children, wouldn't god want us to be unified?
isn't that against the ideal of democracy?

so bringing this back to the thread...if god were to be discovered, now that we have been purposefully scattered...would that be the cause for unity or division?

You just like to run around in circles....don't you?

 

[waitasec]

You just like to run around in circles....don't you?

that's what one gets when they take the bible literally....

 

[Thief]

that's what one gets when they take the bible literally....

Well I for one...make a practice of discernment.

Not that I pick and choose what I like...some things are severe.