Is ISIS a disaster for all muslims?

[Smart_Guy]

You should review the PEW research poll conducted a few years ago. A large amount of Muslim responders sympathized with extremists and an even larger group were quite non-committal. About the same number of people were strongly against the extremists as there were who sympathized. All in all, it painted a troubling picture.

What about those who don't? Why can't you look at them?

No need to review it, I believe you. But large does not mean even close to most. Even if it does, it still does not stand for Islam and all Muslims. Please look at Muslims like Tashan and me instead of those radicals.

And oops, I mean "I'm not pointing fingers". Sorry for the typo.

Please explain this statement – I often hear Moslems say this yet never see them offer anything to back it up.

It is self explanatory. Sorry, I dunno how to explain it further.

As for me and so many others I know, there are many things we can't speak of or we put ourselves on the line for it. Some organizations take such speeches politically and that is something dangerous to get involved in, in the major Muslim countries. Even as we communicate here, we are under surveillance.

 

[TashaN]

Comparing the actions of fallible men to those of Gods and prophets is completely nonsensical. You seem to have conveniently forgot that Muhammad was being divinely guided by Allah – so the fact that his murderous actions occurred 1400 years ago is completely irrelevant. God’s morality does not change and his notion of right and wrong isn’t governed by timelines and so if the God of Islam allowed/commanded Muhammad to carry out beheading’s in the name and defence of Islam in 650 AD he’d sure as hell allow him to do it now – wouldn’t he!

What ISIS are doing is no different to what Muhammad did – you can try and obscurant as much as you want but this is just a plain fact. (I must add that Moslems who try to claim beheadings has nothing to with Islam display astonishing duplictiousness – their own prophet did it, the Koran clearly references and mandates it and so it has been that this savagery has been the Modus Operandi of slaughter by Moslems throughout its entire history).

How do you explain the wide condemnation of ISIS throughout the Muslim world? why don't we simply join them?

 

[ZooGirl02]

I am not sure if I would say that ISIS is a disaster for all Muslims but it definitely makes Islam in general look bad and although that is not just. Thankfully the vast majority of Muslims are good and peaceful people. However, ISIS is probably affecting the public image of Muslims and I find that to be sad.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I am not sure if I would say that ISIS is a disaster for all Muslims but it definitely makes Islam in general look bad and although that is not just. Thankfully the vast majority of Muslims are good and peaceful people. However, ISIS is probably affecting the public image of Muslims and I find that to be sad.

Agreed.

And ma'am, thank you for your open mindedness and rational thinking.

 

[Chev Chelios]

How do you explain the wide condemnation of ISIS throughout the Muslim world? why don't we simply join them?

You completely ignored my point and have dramatically changed topics. Why is that Tashan? You said we can’t compare the actions of ISIS in 2014 to those which clearly inspired them as conducted by Muhammad in the 7th Century. I would like you to address this please because I am quite certain that in 2014 the god of Islam would be more than happy for Muhammad, and by extension Moslems, to behead non Moslems in defence of the faith.

Now, I will briefly address your point about Worldwide Moslem condemnation.

I do sincerely hope that you are not suggesting that Moslems worldwide are up in arms about ISIS? If so then by all means please do point me in the direction of all the outpouring of moral outrage by Moslems the world over which is akin to what we saw when a certain Youtube video was made, or some cartoons were drawn, or a teddy bear was named Muhammad or Israel defended itself etc etc. I seemed to have missed it Tashan. Indeed, Moslems do not appear to deem the acts carried out by ISIS in the name of Islam as a violation of their faith in quite the same way they do a Katy Perry video (which was pulled before the real carnage began).

Therefore, I can only assume you refer to ‘statements’ made by ‘prominent’ Moslems such as Iyad Bin Amin Madani, secretary general of the OIC, who released a condemning statement (that was actually a lot less condemning when in read its entirety) and was typical of the self serving empty platitudes we see served up by Moslem clerics and community leaders here in Britain in order to protect Islam’s self proclaimed title of ‘the religion of peace’ and deflect any of the oh so needed enquiry it needs.

I can say empty platitudes because good ole Iyad Bin Amin Madani is a very important Saudi Cleric (hint hint – he is secretary general of the OIC) and in his statement he talks about how ISIS have nothing to do with Islam’s virtues of fairness, tolerance, freedom of faith, co-existence, and kindness. So does this mean we will see Iyad Madani championing for the rights of Christians, Jews and Hindus to practice their faith freely in Saudi Arabia then? Will we see him help build Churches and Synagogues which are thus far banned from existence in a land shaped by the religion of peace and fairness, and tolerance and kindness? Will we see the wholesale emancipation of 50% of its population (i.e. women) any time soon???

So, we can see then that the standards by what this particularly important Moslem judges to be kindness and tolerance to be rather dubious. Furthermore, when viewed through a prism of Islamic theology we see that the meaning of fairness, tolerance, freedom of faith, co-existence and kindness may also be somewhat different to that held by the non Moslem at a more general level. You see - in Islam’s perfect book Allah is deemed to be merciful for prescribing for the Non Moslem two options – convert to Islam or die OR pay an additional poll tax. Not very merciful if you ask me. Shall we discuss what the islamically inspired Shariah Law has to say about fairness, tolerance, freedom of faith, co-existence and kindness??? We could just look to all 47 Moslem majority countries couldn’t we Tashan.

As for your puerile point about why don’t all Moslems join ISIS – well firstly we can exclude all Moslems but the Sunni denomination in this. Of the Sunni’s which remain - well ….erm….noone said all Moslems are blood thirsty Jihadi’s wishing or willing to maim and behead have they? Nor does this pedantic point take into account all that would be involved to leave your job, family and life to take up arms and go risk your life for this particular cause (there is a reason most foreign Jihadi's in Syria/ISIS are 18-31 years old). I’d love to visit Australia – a big dream of mine, but making it happen is easier said than done but because I haven’t done it tells you nothing about my dream to do it nor does the fact that I haven't done it preclude that I don't want to do it does it Tashan.

Now – the fact that most Moslems subscribe to baseline human behaviour of not actually wishing to kill or join Islamic militia does not mean that most Moslems do not hold the desire to live under or indeed to see the world come under the rule of Islam – a goal which funnily enough is the end point of ISIS. To get an idea of the attitudes of societies forged by Islam’s doctrine we could just look to how minorities are treated in all Moslem majority countries as already mentioned

 

[Smart_Guy]

You completely ignored my point and have dramatically changed topics. Why is that Tashan?

Come on man, no need to say it like that. We should give each other the benefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Chev Chelios]

It is self explanatory. Sorry, I dunno how to explain it further.

As for me and so many others I know, there are many things we can't speak of or we put ourselves on the line for it. Some organizations take such speeches politically and that is something dangerous to get involved in, in the major Muslim countries. Even as we communicate here, we are under surveillance.

So you are happy to make statements about how the actions of ISIS directly contravene the teachings of Islam but cannot offer up any proof to support it? That is quite dissapointing.

I do not doubt your sincerity or kindness on a personal level but I am sure you can appreciate that as a Non Moslem watching the actions of ISIS et al - I need a bit more than soundbites to convince me Islam does not say what ISIS say it does.

 

[Chev Chelios]

Come on man, no need to say it like that. We should give each other the benefit of the doubt before jumping to conclusions.

Fair enough. I give the benefit of the doubt and so now hope to see a response to what I believe is a fair point.

 

[YmirGF]

So you are happy to make statements about how the actions of ISIS directly contravene the teachings of Islam but cannot offer up any proof to support it? That is quite dissapointing.

I do not doubt your sincerity or kindness on a personal level but I am sure you can appreciate that as a Non Moslem watching the actions of ISIS et al - I need a bit more than soundbites to convince me Islam does not say what ISIS say it does.

The sad reality is that virtually any interpretation is correct. If one does not like what one Imam says, go find one that is closer to your thinking. Muslims are not obliged to follow any particular interpretation.

 

[MD]

If anything ISIS should make people more aware about how diverse the Islamic world is. Most people fighting and dying to protect minorities are Muslims. The Kurds, Assad's army and the Iraqi army are the main folks fighting ISIS and the other Jihadist armies, and they are Muslim. Each region has its own regional political and Islamic outlook. It also shows that while the Gulf States and Saudis want to create proxy armies, they do not want those very same proxy armies overthrowing them, meaning they do not want a large Islamist Caliphate. So ISIS has shown me that the Muslim world is a lot more complex, and a good deal of what the state actors do is political, rather than religious. For example Iran has a growing irreligious population, and many Iranians are more secular than Islamic, but the leaders make the country seem like it's some Shi'a fortress.

Europe should take a good hard look at itself as it allows fundamentalism to grow at a higher pace than other more unfortunate areas of the Muslim world, like Gaza. Two recent polls found that ISIS had a higher level of support in France and the UK than Gaza. What does that say about Western Europe? Logic dictates that in fact a place like Gaza should be much more pro ISIS than France. I would blame liberalism for this, as it aligns itself with fundamentalism. In Canada dozens of Canadians have joined ISIS, most of them are White converts.

One in six French people say they support ISIS - Vox

 

[Smart_Guy]

So you are happy to make statements about how the actions of ISIS directly contravene the teachings of Islam but cannot offer up any proof to support it? That is quite dissapointing.

I do not doubt your sincerity or kindness on a personal level but I am sure you can appreciate that as a Non Moslem watching the actions of ISIS et al - I need a bit more than soundbites to convince me Islam does not say what ISIS say it does.

Quote by me:
"Islam forbids those atrocities they are doing."

I honestly can't explain this further. I also told you about the critical position I'm in. One wrong word here can bring me and my family serious troubles. Your disappointment is not in the right place. Please understand.

So many Muslims are in my position, let alone lack of language control and education that they can't come out to public and tell that they are against some political movement. We do not freedom of speech here. Please understand.

 

[YmirGF]

Quote by me:
"Islam forbids those atrocities they are doing."

I honestly can't explain this further. I also told you about the critical position I'm in. One wrong word here can bring me and my family serious troubles. Your disappointment is not in the right place. Please understand.

So many Muslims are in my position, let alone lack of language control and education that they can't come out to public and tell that they are against some political movement. We do not freedom of speech here. Please understand.

Do not place yourself in jeopardy, Smart_Guy. It's not worth it.

 

[metis]

Quote by me:
"Islam forbids those atrocities they are doing."...

Ya gotta be careful with statements like this since much in Islam is based on interpretation, and that varies.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Do not place yourself in jeopardy, Smart_Guy. It's not worth it.

Ya gotta be careful with statements like this since much in Islam is based on interpretation, and that varies.

You might make jokes about it (I'm not saying that you necessarily are) or not take it seriously, but believe me, you have no idea what would happen to those speak freely, or even gives hints, of politics or anything related to it here.

 

[metis]

You might make jokes about it (I'm not saying that you necessarily are) or not take it seriously, but believe me, you have no idea what would happen to those speak freely, or even gives hints, of politics or anything related to it here.

Oh trust me, I do understand that.

 

[Chev Chelios]

If anything ISIS should make people more aware about how diverse the Islamic world is. Most people fighting and dying to protect minorities are Muslims. The Kurds, Assad's army and the Iraqi army are the main folks fighting ISIS and the other Jihadist armies, and they are Muslim.

This isn't really true. The Kurds are fighting ISIS in order to protect their territory - if they do not fight back they will be wiped out by the coming caliphate. They know this and so have no choice but to defend themselves. The Kurds are a persecuted people who finally have a home land and they understandably are not prepared to meekly give it up. Assad is certainly not fighting for minority rights but his own - the only reason minorities are not wiped out under such dictatorship rule is because dictators are sure to keep a lid on Islamic fundamentalists.

Sorry, but if the peaceful Moslem majority that you allude to were so interested in minority rights please explain the persecution of religious minorities in pretty much all Moslem majority lands. Please tell me how this 99.9% peaceful faction fail to stop the persecution and or slaughter in North Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt, Pakistan, Iraq, Indonesia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, Malaysia etc etc etc.

 

[paarsurrey]

Them atrocities being committed by ISIS and similar groups are horrifying the non-muslim world.

People will now be suspicious of their muslim neighbours: would they do such things if they thought they could get away with them?

Young muslims leaving peaceful places like Canada to join such groups reinforces the negative impression of islam that the jihadis are producing.

Will things be worse for muslims than they would be without the jihadist groups?

It is a political group; it is not a representative of Quran/Islam/Muhammad.
Quran/Islam/Muhammad are peaceful; movements like these hamper spread of Islam. Quran/Islam/Muhammad do not support them.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Seeing that Muslims are the primary target for groups like ISIS (for the time being at least), yes.

It is simply politics in the name of Islam.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Only if they lose.
If they win, it's Allah's will.
The victorious write history.
Like the killing of the Canaanites...

That was simply politics in the name of Judaism; Torah was misused to do that.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I am not sure if I would say that ISIS is a disaster for all Muslims but it definitely makes Islam in general look bad and although that is not just. Thankfully the vast majority of Muslims are good and peaceful people. However, ISIS is probably affecting the public image of Muslims and I find that to be sad.

I agree with you.

Thanks and regards