Is ISIS a disaster for all muslims?

[outhouse]

Ok, I do see that you have a point, TashaN. I was never comfortable with the expression "War on Terror" as it is such a vague term, however, defining the actions of the West as a "crusade" was extremely poor usage of the word from Bush. I'm fairly confident that the average Brit, Canadian or American never saw it as a "crusade" regardless of what George Bush said in his ill-conceived comment.

Agreed.

And we are still at war against terrorism.


There was never a crusade, the only reason religion is being mentioned is that islam and its members around the world, hold the largest amount of terrorist, and since members of that religion used its religious faith to kill Americans, you will have no choice in enjoying our company in the middle east, since that religion does nothing at all to very little, to control its minority.


The question has to be asked, my does islam breed terrorist, and what has islam done to stop this? They have done nothing, and fight the possible problems that breed terrorism, as it lies at the core of the religion.

 

[Chev Chelios]

Who is the one dodging the points now? You are changing your position now?

Didn't you just said earlier which i quoted in my previous post that you want to liberate me and that i should be grateful for it?

I dodge nothing. But I am truly worried about your state of mind Tashan because you continuously attribute quotes to me that I have never said – this is incredibly tiresome, un-ethical but very typical of my debates with Moslems who need to inject deception to support their arguments. I never said I want to liberate you – please show me the quote. When you fail to do this I want an apology for your lies.

It is funny, because I was actually opposed to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, not least because, having lived under Islam and having paid attention to previous Western interventions to help Moslems, I knew it would be nothing doing.

Now - I did say that a huge part of the poorly named 'War on Terror' was to liberate Moslems from oppression and that Western lives were lost in doing so – this fact is deserving of gratitude – that you don’t shows an attitude in accordance with Islamist propaganda for they say what you say – that the West are at war with Moslems! And like you they offer absolutely no evidence at all either. Oh – wait - you did say that Bush had used the word ‘crusade’!! Oh, well that is just irrefutable proof of an insidious anti-Islamic sentiment within teh West which drives foreign policy isn’t it! Good grief.

Wiki pages have sources at the bottom and you could check on them. So, I don't care whether you like links or not. I'm not going to spoon-feed you. You have to do your own homework before coming here to represent the mighty Holy West.

Homework nothing - I am having a debate with you – NOT wikipaedia. If you want to fight your corner then do it – do not expect me to trawl around the internet to corroborate your claims. If you want to take me on then put forward your argument for why you think the West are specifically going after innocent Moslems and I guarantee you I will respond in my own words to the case you put forward. That you don’t shows you are now running from what I know you cannot back up. You like to give nifty little sound bites but you do not have anything to substantiate them.

I was quite puzzled on whether to call that statement an arrogant one, or a representative of white supremacy. You know what, maybe all of it.

By saying all of this, you are proving that the West is not special in anyway, and not civilized at all. How can they dare call themselves the free world if this is how they think?!

How can they teach me as a backward illiterate ungrateful ignorant barbaric Muslim how to behave, how to think, and how to be civilized?

I don't see how what you believe in would be any different than the crusaders during Spain Reconquista who treated my ancestors badly through torture, forced conversion, killing, and expulsion of many other Muslims and Jews from Spain for not being Christians like them. I bet those uncivilized Jews and Muslims were being *liberated* from their own ignorance, and they too should be grateful for what the crusaders have done. We need to send them a letter of appreciation, kiss their hand, bow down, and praise the lord for they have cleaned us from our sins!

I am struggling to get my head around how you gleamed any of what you just said from my comment but never mind, I am becoming used to your incoherence with each comment. Regardless, here we see you doing what those who cannot argue do – try and hide under the race card – astonishing that it took you so long. Well, you will have to explain your cries of white supremacist because I am not White.

Second – I see you didn’t respond to the points raised did you. If the West are targeting Moslems why would they risk Western lives by coming to their aid in Bosnia or Kuwait for example? It was the West that halted the slaughter of Moslems – not Moslem majority countries who were nowhere to be seen when all tehse Moslems were dying - as per usual. If the West is so bad for Moslems as you say then why does it open its borders to Moslems (who so willingly come here) and rightly affords them equal status and provides complete freedom to worship? So yes – in doing these things that the Moslem majority world can’t and won’t we do indeed see that the West is very special indeed.

It is truly laughable that you’d dare try and take the moral high ground here when only earlier today you explicitly showed that you think it is wrong for Christians and Jews to be able to have Churches or Synagogues built in Saudi Arabia (you do realise Mosques are built all over the anti-Moslem UK don’t you?? I think that is the right thing to do by the way – respect and allow people the freedom to worship. Shame you do not.)

 

[Chev Chelios]

Again, I have to admit that this is a bit over the top, even by my standards. IN OUR ARROGANCE, we largely assumed that people the world over wanted what we wanted. It was a very great shock to us to find out that many of them did not. For example, the Taliban may not have been what the people in the cities were keen to have governing them, but in the rural areas of Afghanistan, the Taliban was pretty much the normal way of life and have been for centuries. In our terms, it is very hard to expect a people to be grateful for giving them a life they never had, that was foreign to everything they knew.

Please state what you find over the top about what I said.

I never supported the intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan but nonetheless we should not accept the lies of Moslems or others who try and dress it up as an attack on Moslems. No it wasn't. It was a war waged against terrorism and one which came with the liberation of many Moslems from oppression. These are empirical facts which if looked at objectively cannot be argued with. I completely agree with the argument that trying to provide these oppressed people with the freedom and democracy we enjoy in the West was completely naive and more than just a tad misguided but just because it didn't work out doesn't change the facts.

 

[YmirGF]

Please state what you find over the top about what I said.

I never supported the intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan but nonetheless we should not accept the lies of Moslems or others who try and dress it up as an attack on Moslems. No it wasn't. It was a war waged against terrorism and one which came with the liberation of many Moslems from oppression. These are empirical facts which if looked at objectively cannot be argued with. I completely agree with the argument that trying to provide these oppressed people with the freedom and democracy we enjoy in the West was completely naive and more than just a tad misguided but just because it didn't work out doesn't change the facts.

It was more about the tone of how dare they be so ungrateful that rankled me a tad. I can only imagine how TashaN, an old friend, may have taken it. In my view, Saddam's occupation of Kuwait and the ecological nightmare that ensued after the destruction of the oil rigs warranted taking him out of power. Or his gassing of the Kurds... or... Likewise, one can hardly say that present day Iraq is "liberated" from oppression. The thing is, when you remove a dictator from power, who has been in power for a long time, there is always a political void to be filled. Chaos ensues and those left to govern are rarely ever up to the task.

As any Muslim on RF will likely attest, I am not a big fan of Islam, however, by going into these countries is it so hard to understand why they feel that they themselves are under attack? The reality is that we are not out to get Muslims, but from the man on the ground perspective, it may not be quite so clear.

 

[TashaN]

Ok, I do see that you have a point, TashaN. I was never comfortable with the expression "War on Terror" as it is such a vague term, however, defining the actions of the West as a "crusade" was extremely poor usage of the word from Bush. I'm fairly confident that the average Brit, Canadian or American never saw it as a "crusade" regardless of what George Bush said in his ill-conceived comment.

This comment came from the one who held the most powerful position in the world!!! it's not like it was said by an insignificant person.

Again, I have to admit that this is a bit over the top, even by my standards. IN OUR ARROGANCE, we largely assumed that people the world over wanted what we wanted. It was a very great shock to us to find out that many of them did not. For example, the Taliban may not have been what the people in the cities were keen to have governing them, but in the rural areas of Afghanistan, the Taliban was pretty much the normal way of life and have been for centuries. In our terms, it is very hard to expect a people to be grateful for giving them a life they never had, that was foreign to everything they knew.

It's not whether it was foreign to them or not, but it's about the concept itself of pushing and proselytizing for a specific version of imposed so called freedom and civilization. You can't shove American values down people's throat.

 

[YmirGF]

This comment came from the one who held the most powerful position in the world!!! it's not like it was said by an insignificant person.

True, but it was still an ill-conceived comment, regardless. No one, not one single person, I have EVER spoken with on these matters has ever said it had anything to do with religion (from our standpoint, that is). It was about getting the "bad guys".

It's not whether it was foreign to them or not, but it's about the concept itself of pushing and proselytizing for a specific version of imposed so called freedom and civilization. You can't shove American values down people's throat.

Well, we found that out the hard way, didn't we. Our arrogance is based in the perception that we enjoy the best of everything in this world and that we assume that others would want to have a taste too. We didn't understand that some folks are happy living with a 7th century ideology, abject poverty and religious oppression.

 

[TashaN]

I dodge nothing. But I am truly worried about your state of mind Tashan because you continuously attribute quotes to me that I have never said – this is incredibly tiresome, un-ethical but very typical of my debates with Moslems who need to inject deception to support their arguments. I never said I want to liberate you – please show me the quote. When you fail to do this I want an apology for your lies.

Hmmmm, let's see!

Now - I did say that a huge part of the poorly named 'War on Terror' was to liberate Moslems from oppression and that Western lives were lost in doing so – this fact is deserving of gratitude

:faint:

Oh – wait - you did say that Bush had used the word ‘crusade’!! Oh, well that is just irrefutable proof of an insidious anti-Islamic sentiment within teh West which drives foreign policy isn’t it!

I agree that it's anti-Islamic sentiment caused by islamophobia.

Homework nothing - I am having a debate with you – NOT wikipaedia. If you want to fight your corner then do it – do not expect me to trawl around the internet to corroborate your claims. If you want to take me on then put forward your argument for why you think the West are specifically going after innocent Moslems and I guarantee you I will respond in my own words to the case you put forward. That you don’t shows you are now running from what I know you cannot back up. You like to give nifty little sound bites but you do not have anything to substantiate them.

Fine, so you want unbacked arguments with no resources at all! just my own words? Ok cool. Let's start with this interesting fact.

Your country kill Muslims everyday. Therefore, they are terrorists and should be held accountable for their criminal acts. Refute it please!

I am struggling to get my head around how you gleamed any of what you just said from my comment but never mind, I am becoming used to your incoherence with each comment. Regardless, here we see you doing what those who cannot argue do – try and hide under the race card – astonishing that it took you so long. Well, you will have to explain your cries of white supremacist because I am not White.

Definition:
Supremacism is the belief, or promotion of the belief, that white people are superior to people of other racial backgrounds and that therefore whites should politically, economically and socially dominate non-whites.

Your country "White government" vs Muslim countries "non-White government".

Got it?

Hmmm, how about imperialism? it's way cooler than the White Supremacy card which might come as a cliché.

I see you didn’t respond to the points raised did you. If the West are targeting Moslems why would they risk Western lives by coming to their aid in Bosnia or Kuwait for example?

Because they are getting paid, not because they love them and want to *liberate* them.

A shocking fact right? I know!

It is truly laughable that you’d dare try and take the moral high ground here when only earlier today you explicitly showed that you think it is wrong for Christians and Jews to be able to have Churches or Synagogues built in Saudi Arabia (you do realise Mosques are built all over the anti-Moslem UK don’t you?? I think that is the right thing to do by the way – respect and allow people the freedom to worship. Shame you do not.)

Yes, only Muslims should be allowed to practice their religion in our holy places. In the same manner that i have no right to build a mosque in Vatican City.

Oh wait, this is coming to me as a Déjà vu. I recall i have said this to you before but you may have forgotten to address it?!

 

[outhouse]

pushing and proselytizing for a specific version of imposed so called freedom and civilization.

.

Because we all know that a free democratic society is so much worse then brutal primitive tyrants running a country


And it has nothing to do with a setting up a specific type of government, just not a barbaric primitive one.


Run any government you want, if it is peaceful, you will never see us.

 

[outhouse]

I agree that it's anti-Islamic sentiment caused by islamophobia.

Not for me, most of mine is from direct interactions here.

The terrorist do cause stereotypes, but I always took that as minority fringe groups. But after being involved with how islam thinks and works on a day to day basis, im starting to see how easy it is for these groups to go rogue.

The more fanatical and fundamental beliefs required for a religion, the easier these fringe groups are born.


I honestly wish I would have ignored this Abrahamic religion longer then I did.


To give you an example, imagine if all americans were YEC with the power we hold, the earth would be a safer or more dangerous place?

Ponder that.

 

[outhouse]

What if I am factually right? Does all of islam force all of its people to follow pseudo history? Or just keep attacking credible knowledge?


Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the beginning of the 21st century, and despite sporadic attempts by more conservative scholars such as Kenneth Kitchen to save the patriarchal narratives as history, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'".


The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Exodus recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence.


A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel's Canaanite origins.



Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The tradition of Moses as a lawgiver and culture hero of the Israelites can be traced to the Deuteronomist source,


This means literary creation


That means an exodus of the scale described in the Torah would have been impossible.


While the general narrative of the Exodus and the conquest of the Promised Land may be remotely rooted in historical events, the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated

 

[Chev Chelios]

Hmmmm, let's see!

:faint:

Wow. So – when discussing the liberation of Moslems in Afghanistan and Iraq from oppressive regimes you somehow take this to mean I am directing the comment directly at you? You also fail to note that I never once said I WANTED to liberate Afghanistan or Iraq – I merely referenced that the Allied forces DID liberate them. So stop lying and stick to what I say. I will point out yet again that I was personally against the intervention – but being against it does not mean I will accept lies about much of the reasons behind it.

I agree that it's anti-Islamic sentiment caused by islamophobia.

Wow. So Bush was definitely displaying his clear affliction with Islamophobia by making that statement was he? Well then tell me - was Bush also displaying his virile Islamophobia when he said “Islam means peace” then??

Hey – all this talk of Islamophobia has got me thinking – what exactly on Earth does it mean? Can you explain Islamophobia for me because I haven’t got a clue?

Fine, so you want unbacked arguments with no resources at all! just my own words? Ok cool. Let's start with this interesting fact.

Your country kill Muslims everyday. Therefore, they are terrorists and should be held accountable for their criminal acts. Refute it please!

So we are 10 years old now? Making claims is not the same as making an argument – dance around this all you want but I am cringing at your blatant in-ability to make an argument here. There is nothing wrong with referencing to support your argument but you need to make that argument – not post youtube videos and wikipaedia links and expect that to be it. If you are unwilling to make your argument for this absurd claim of yours then I suggest you stop making this ‘claim’.

As for the facts - no, my country (UK) does not kill Moslems everyday and nor is it akin to a terrorist outfit either. But hey - Moslems DO kill Moslems everyday - thousands of them every couple of days in-fact. Does this bother you? Were you bothered when the Taliban were beheading Moslems and raping Moslem women wholesale or when they were throwing acid into teh faces of Moslem women if it was uncovered or tried to blow little girls brains out for trying to get an education?? Was you angry at the persecution in Iraq only when the West entered to intervene I wonder???

I also wonder - do you think the West should intervene with ISIS or just sit back and allow the slaughter to continue??

Definition:
Supremacism is the belief, or promotion of the belief, that white people are superior to people of other racial backgrounds and that therefore whites should politically, economically and socially dominate non-whites.

Your country "White government" vs Muslim countries "non-White government".

Got it?

Hmmm, how about imperialism? it's way cooler than the White Supremacy card which might come as a cliché.

Wow. This just keeps getting worse. No, I haven’t got it but I do hope people actually are paying attention to what you just wrote and the false logic you used to write it. So, by me pointing out that the West liberated Moslems from oppression in Afghanistan and Iraq (which they did) somehow can be taken to mean that I am trying to push a white supremacist narrative and that the West should dominate Moslem majority countries politically, economically or whatever. These misquotations and down right lies are weird, beyond a joke and are now actually just disgusting.

Mixed into the crazyness is now the idea of denoting the ethos of nations and their governments by skin colour – so the US (Black President) and UK are really just white governments pushing a white agenda?? I honestly do not know what to say to this lunacy. Maybe your premise is that the West (White government) are trying to kill innocent Moslems (brown governments) in order to push some conspiritol White supremacist agenda?? Yes – ok, but then why are these White people freely letting in so many immigrants so that these white people are starting to rapidly dwindle in number??

Because they are getting paid, not because they love them and want to *liberate* them.

A shocking fact right? I know!

No – not shocking. What is shocking is that they would have risked their lives saving Moslems whilst getting paid when in-fact, they could have simply stayed at home and still got paid!! So, now we have dealt with your bizarre wage idea can you please now explain why the West would send in its own people to save Moslems being slaughtered in Bosnia and Kuwait if the West are so anti-Moslem?? This is a gaping hole in your argument and it didn'tt require much thought either.

Yes, only Muslims should be allowed to practice their religion in our holy places. In the same manner that i have no right to build a mosque in Vatican City.

Oh wait, this is coming to me as a Déjà vu. I recall i have said this to you before but you may have forgotten to address it?!

No – I didn’t forget to address it - learn to read.

In any case – let’s get this straight. You obviously think it is ok for Moslems in Saudi Arabia to not recognise or protect religious freedom by banishing any public practice by or places of worships for non-Moslems to ensure all its citizens are under Islam – but somehow you try and qualify this fact by comparing it to the Vatican??? Can you please explain to me how Saudi Arabia is analogous with the Vatican City??

 

[Chev Chelios]

It was more about the tone of how dare they be so ungrateful that rankled me a tad. I can only imagine how TashaN, an old friend, may have taken it. In my view, Saddam's occupation of Kuwait and the ecological nightmare that ensued after the destruction of the oil rigs warranted taking him out of power. Or his gassing of the Kurds... or... Likewise, one can hardly say that present day Iraq is "liberated" from oppression. The thing is, when you remove a dictator from power, who has been in power for a long time, there is always a political void to be filled. Chaos ensues and those left to govern are rarely ever up to the task.

As any Muslim on RF will likely attest, I am not a big fan of Islam, however, by going into these countries is it so hard to understand why they feel that they themselves are under attack? The reality is that we are not out to get Muslims, but from the man on the ground perspective, it may not be quite so clear.

The Tone rankled you - fair enough. But I fail to see how saying that I think Moslems should show some appreciation for the people who gave their lives to liberate them can be rude? You are welcome to see it as you wiish, but I stand by what I said – the West liberated Moslems in Iraq and Afghanistan and Bosnia and Kuwait whilst the Moslem world stood by and did nothing (as they are doing now with ISIS ) – I think a big thank you really wouldn’t go amiss here.

I am disappointed that you do not get rankled at people like your 'old friend' Tashan when he says Non Moslems should not be allowed to practice their faith in Saudi Arabia or that the West are specifically going out of its way to kill Moslems! I think dealing with odious ideas and lies such as these are a much better way to spend your time than directing comments at me because I have the audacity to point out the ungrateful nature of many Moslems. Oh - forget my tone, you would do much better to hand over some friendly advice to your old friend Tashan and tell him to stop Misquoting or down right making up lies about the things I say. See - that Rankles me.

As for the intervention itself – sure, it didn’t work out the way which was hoped (largely because of the wrong choice of president) but that tells us nothing about much of why that intervention occurred or all the genuine hope which was had in terms of the outcomes for the Iraqi people. Mind you – I know many Afghani’s who report that life is much better now than when under the Taliban. That is not nothing nor is not nothing that women can now learn to drive, get an education, walk around unaccompanied and uncovered or start to decide for themselves the direction of their life better than they could before. Does this last – we will see but I assure you, knowing that shows it was not all for nothing.

 

[gnostic]

I don't think the Americans and allies should have set foot in Iraq in the first place. There were no WMDs in Iraq, and there were no terrorists like al-Qaeda in Iraq while Saddam Huessein was in power.

I dislike Hussein a lot, because he was a butcher of his own people, but at the very least, he kept the al-Qaeda out of Iraq, because he doesn't trust them and he didn't want to share power with dangerous enemies, like bin Laden and his gang.

Thet US-led invasion in Iraq and the removal of a dictator, had caused a power vacuum, only caused more problems than keeping the dictator in power. The sectarian violences escalated between Shiites and Sunni, all leaders and political factions were corrupted and governing the country were ineffective, and terrorists that weren't in Iraq before, roaming freely, and killing at will, leave the allies stuck in this land for over a decade, trying to fix something that apparent can't be fixed.

And now a new form of terrorists have come and killing civilians, and the current leader and government can't do anything about it.

Sorry, Chev, but George Bush Junior, left a terrible mess in Iraq, because of his incompetent strategy, and holding old grudges against Saddam. Bush shouldn't have fought another war, when nothing had been resolved Afghanistan and the al-Qaeda were still operating during his 2 terms in office. Bush didn't fix anything, the freedom you think the US has won for the Iraqis was nothing but mirage of his delusion.

And worse still, Bush completely and moronic disband the entire Iraqi police and armed forces, allowing lawlessness run ramparts for weeks and the terrorists could cross into Iraq freely. By the time, he tried to recruit the Iraqis again, the damages have already been done. He and his military advisors were complete morons.

And his two wars nearly brought his own country to its knees with bankruptcy and mismanagement of his administration, which Obama still have to fix.

 

[mahmoud mrt]

Them atrocities being committed by ISIS and similar groups are horrifying the non-muslim world.

People will now be suspicious of their muslim neighbours: would they do such things if they thought they could get away with them?

Young muslims leaving peaceful places like Canada to join such groups reinforces the negative impression of islam that the jihadis are producing.

Will things be worse for muslims than they would be without the jihadist groups?

Yes ISIS is a complete Disaster to Muslims and non Muslims,



But let’s not ignore the role or Western Intelligence Agencies for the Goal of erasing Basshar Alasad Rule for the sake of clearing an enemy of Israel, and also for the sake of keeping Muslims fighting each other and leave Israel alone.


Yes ISIS is a disaster, all normal Muslims should condemn their acts, and most are condemning even my colleagues who’re “Salafeyyeen” who are Orthodox or classical Muslims condemn their acts


What ISIS did in corporation with the Western Intelligence Agencies is bringing all the rubbish from the middle ages which are lies and fakes to the prophet and his companions. By which they brainwashed all extremists and many ignorant Sunni Muslims who are just angry with the Shia Muslims for their oppression to Sunnis in Iraq and Syria. No offense to Shias, I’m just stating information.


So they brought the rubbish of lies and history fakes to life to be in action, may God help us normal Muslims to defeat them both intellectually and Armies wise.

Regards
Mahmoud

 

[FearGod]

How few men with primitive weapons can threat America.

[youtube]0Xs3L86-Mak[/youtube]
OMG!!! HERE COMES THE NEXT BIN LADEN! BAGHDADI! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES AMERICA!!! - YouTube

 

[TashaN]

Wow. So – when discussing the liberation of Moslems in Afghanistan and Iraq from oppressive regimes you somehow take this to mean I am directing the comment directly at you? You also fail to note that I never once said I WANTED to liberate Afghanistan or Iraq – I merely referenced that the Allied forces DID liberate them. So stop lying and stick to what I say. I will point out yet again that I was personally against the intervention – but being against it does not mean I will accept lies about much of the reasons behind it.

I didn't lie and i really don't know what you are talking about. Saying that the US wanted to liberate the people of Afghanistan and Iraq is a lie and everyone knows that. They went to Afghanistan as a show of power and revenge, and went to Iraq for oil, period.

Wow. So Bush was definitely displaying his clear affliction with Islamophobia by making that statement was he? Well then tell me - was Bush also displaying his virile Islamophobia when he said “Islam means peace” then??

Anyone can lie and conceal his true inten. Hint: a politician!

Hey – all this talk of Islamophobia has got me thinking – what exactly on Earth does it mean? Can you explain Islamophobia for me because I haven’t got a clue?

Google it.

So we are 10 years old now? Making claims is not the same as making an argument – dance around this all you want but I am cringing at your blatant in-ability to make an argument here. There is nothing wrong with referencing to support your argument but you need to make that argument – not post youtube videos and wikipaedia links and expect that to be it. If you are unwilling to make your argument for this absurd claim of yours then I suggest you stop making this ‘claim’.

Are we in an English class now? are you a teacher or something? lol.

As for the facts - no, my country (UK) does not kill Moslems everyday and nor is it akin to a terrorist outfit either. But hey - Moslems DO kill Moslems everyday - thousands of them every couple of days in-fact. Does this bother you? Were you bothered when the Taliban were beheading Moslems and raping Moslem women wholesale or when they were throwing acid into teh faces of Moslem women if it was uncovered or tried to blow little girls brains out for trying to get an education?? Was you angry at the persecution in Iraq only when the West entered to intervene I wonder???

Does it bother you that Tony Blair lied at you about the reasons behind backing up Bush?

Both of them used lame excuses to invade Iraq and they are responsible for the mess that Iraq is at now.

Some sources:
Blair: truth and lies | Mehdi Hasan | Comment is free | theguardian.com

Tony Blair and Iraq: The damning evidence - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

I also wonder - do you think the West should intervene with ISIS or just sit back and allow the slaughter to continue??

Who do you mean by the West? Nato, UK, USA, or who exactly? no one is interested to intervene because they just love it the way it is now.

Wow. This just keeps getting worse. No, I haven’t got it but I do hope people actually are paying attention to what you just wrote and the false logic you used to write it. So, by me pointing out that the West liberated Moslems from oppression in Afghanistan and Iraq (which they did) somehow can be taken to mean that I am trying to push a white supremacist narrative and that the West should dominate Moslem majority countries politically, economically or whatever. These misquotations and down right lies are weird, beyond a joke and are now actually just disgusting.

You are not disgusted at the thousands of people killed as a result of Iraq's invasion till now? This is because of Bush and your ex-PM, Blair.

Mixed into the crazyness is now the idea of denoting the ethos of nations and their governments by skin colour – so the US (Black President) and UK are really just white governments pushing a white agenda?? I honestly do not know what to say to this lunacy. Maybe your premise is that the West (White government) are trying to kill innocent Moslems (brown governments) in order to push some conspiritol White supremacist agenda?? Yes – ok, but then why are these White people freely letting in so many immigrants so that these white people are starting to rapidly dwindle in number??

Because they are getting old, are shrinking in number, and need labour.

No – not shocking. What is shocking is that they would have risked their lives saving Moslems whilst getting paid when in-fact, they could have simply stayed at home and still got paid!! So, now we have dealt with your bizarre wage idea can you please now explain why the West would send in its own people to save Moslems being slaughtered in Bosnia and Kuwait if the West are so anti-Moslem?? This is a gaping hole in your argument and it didn'tt require much thought either.

You do realize your reasoning is flawed and you are not actually making it any better as you make more, right?

I advise you to stop this nonsense and think of what i said to you instead of ignoring it.

No – I didn’t forget to address it - learn to read.

In any case – let’s get this straight. You obviously think it is ok for Moslems in Saudi Arabia to not recognise or protect religious freedom by banishing any public practice by or places of worships for non-Moslems to ensure all its citizens are under Islam – but somehow you try and qualify this fact by comparing it to the Vatican??? Can you please explain to me how Saudi Arabia is analogous with the Vatican City??

Can i or can't build a mosque in Vatican city? and why?

 

[Poeticus]

Can i or can't build a mosque in Vatican city? and why?

Since the Vatican is being discussed, a Catholic perspective would certainly be behooving: Catholic-Islam Dialogue: Reciprocity the Key | The American Catholic.

 

[TashaN]

I don't think the Americans and allies should have set foot in Iraq in the first place. There were no WMDs in Iraq, and there were no terrorists like al-Qaeda in Iraq while Saddam Huessein was in power.

I dislike Hussein a lot, because he was a butcher of his own people, but at the very least, he kept the al-Qaeda out of Iraq, because he doesn't trust them and he didn't want to share power with dangerous enemies, like bin Laden and his gang.

Thet US-led invasion in Iraq and the removal of a dictator, had caused a power vacuum, only caused more problems than keeping the dictator in power. The sectarian violences escalated between Shiites and Sunni, all leaders and political factions were corrupted and governing the country were ineffective, and terrorists that weren't in Iraq before, roaming freely, and killing at will, leave the allies stuck in this land for over a decade, trying to fix something that apparent can't be fixed.

And now a new form of terrorists have come and killing civilians, and the current leader and government can't do anything about it.

Sorry, Chev, but George Bush Junior, left a terrible mess in Iraq, because of his incompetent strategy, and holding old grudges against Saddam. Bush shouldn't have fought another war, when nothing had been resolved Afghanistan and the al-Qaeda were still operating during his 2 terms in office. Bush didn't fix anything, the freedom you think the US has won for the Iraqis was nothing but mirage of his delusion.

And worse still, Bush completely and moronic disband the entire Iraqi police and armed forces, allowing lawlessness run ramparts for weeks and the terrorists could cross into Iraq freely. By the time, he tried to recruit the Iraqis again, the damages have already been done. He and his military advisors were complete morons.

And his two wars nearly brought his own country to its knees with bankruptcy and mismanagement of his administration, which Obama still have to fix.

:clap

 

[TashaN]

Since the Vatican is being discussed, a Catholic perspective would certainly be behooving: Catholic-Islam Dialogue: Reciprocity the Key | The American Catholic.

That's an interesting read. He made some comparison of size and population number but still couldn't touch upon the main concept which is why can't Muslims build mosques in Vatican City.

So According to Catholicism, why can't Muslims do it? is it written in the Bible, or this is just the Pope's opinion?

 

[MD]

That's an interesting read. He made some comparison of size and population number but still couldn't touch upon the main concept which is why can't Muslims build mosques in Vatican City.

So According to Catholicism, why can't Muslims do it? is it written in the Bible, or this is just the Pope's opinion?

You can still build mosques in Italy. Comparing the Vatican with Saudi Arabia is a joke, comparing the Vatican with Mecca is more apt.