Is ISIS a disaster for all muslims?

[MD]

This isn't really true. The Kurds are fighting ISIS in order to protect their territory - if they do not fight back they will be wiped out by the coming caliphate. They know this and so have no choice but to defend themselves. The Kurds are a persecuted people who finally have a home land and they understandably are not prepared to meekly give it up. Assad is certainly not fighting for minority rights but his own - the only reason minorities are not wiped out under such dictatorship rule is because dictators are sure to keep a lid on Islamic fundamentalists.

The Kurds are most likely the most forward thinking ethnic group in the entire region, even more so than the average Iranian. Yes they are fighting for their own survival, but they have taken in an enormous number of religious minorities as refugees. But the Kurds have the green light from Turkey for now, who has its own ambitions for resurgence of its old school Ottoman glory. The Kurds will receive independence only if a) A substantial portion of their oil reserves continue to fund Turkey b) They destabilize Iran by supporting a Kurdish insurgency there.

Yes all the dictators protected minorities to strengthen their own position in the state, but they were also driven by secular notions of nationalism or socialism, not Islamism. Even now the Sunni tribes who are negotiating with the new Iraqi government want arms and a lot more autonomy for turning on ISIS, but in the end they will take the areas which ISIS has captured and still create the Sunni State in Iraq and Syria. This Sunni state will have direct access to oil as will their major backers, ie Saudi Arabia and the Gulf emirates. So the Islamists are being manipulated to fight for some extremist notion, the Sunni tribes will be manipulated as well to fight, but in the end it comes down to resource control, the very reason the United States destroyed Iraq in the first place.

Sorry, but if the peaceful Moslem majority that you allude to were so interested in minority rights please explain the persecution of religious minorities in pretty much all Moslem majority lands. Please tell me how this 99.9% peaceful faction fail to stop the persecution and or slaughter in North Nigeria, Sudan, Egypt, Pakistan, Iraq, Indonesia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, Malaysia etc etc etc.

I come from a community which has been persecuted by one of the countries you mentioned, for centuries. But I try to take a look at things more objectively. I can't talk for other countries, but I can talk about Iran. In Iran there are dozens of minorities which the Iranian government suppresses aside from religious minorities. The Azeris, the Kurds and the Balochis come to mind, even though they are Muslim and some are even Shi'a but they're not Persian. Women and other intellectuals are also suppressed in Iran, but Iran has a growing atheist and secular movements and the youth are moving away from extreme Shi'a Islam. Yet the country is projected as this state filled with Shi'a fanatics.

In summary, yes people are doing horrible things in the name of Islam. But in the end I have no choice but to realize that the main supporters and builders of these extremists are doing it for Power and Money, which is why every state does things. That's not to say that there aren't Muslims who don't believe in their own version of extremism and wish to spread it throughtout the world. But they're being manipulated in the end. It's the same with the Right wing militias in the Ukraine, Taliban in Afghanistan, etc.

 

[Chev Chelios]

What difference does it make if a Canadian goes into Iraq and fights for his country (Canada), or fights for ISIS? Killing is killing either way, what's so specially horrific about ISIS or Muslims

ISIS has a long way to go to show that they are as barbaric as the western forces that invaded and occupied Iraq for the last ten years, only time will tell.

Are people seriously still trying to peddle the lie that the poorly named ‘War on Terror’ was waged against 'Moslems' rather than the reality that it was conducted against the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein, tyrannical regimes who were really were raping and slaughtering Moslems as we see ISIS doing. To dress up the liberation of these Moslems by the Allied forces as actually an oppression of them is truly abhorrent and more than just a bit Orwellian. It is a complete inversion of the truth and you should be ashamed to even dare try and equate the overarching motives of removing these Islamists and dictators with those of ISIS.

Nothing could be further from the truth and if you are seriously suggesting the Allied forces targeted civilians during this period of warfare, or engaged in pre meditated barbarity which surpasses that such as the beheading of innocent people or the crucifixition of children then I’d really like to see your evidence. What an utterly astonishing load of claims you have made that I cannot believe the bare faced cheek of it.

The West’s liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan did not create ISIS, it was already there – however the misguided idea that freeing Moslems of dictatorship would somehow propel them towards freedom and democracy like that enjoyed in the West was a miscalculation. The West did create the vacuum which allowed ISIS to come in and fill so yes, in our naivety about the nature of Islam and its followers indeed we are in some way responsible for the position ISIS are in. But it is a complete fallacy to suggest the West created ISIS or any Islamic fundamentalist, terrorists or whatever. If it is injustice to Moslems that creats ‘radicalisation’ then Moslems would have been committing terrorist atrocities over Iraq and Afghanistan long before we ever got there.

 

[Chev Chelios]

The Kurds are most likely the most forward thinking ethnic group in the entire region, even more so than the average Iranian. Yes they are fighting for their own survival, but they have taken in an enormous number of religious minorities as refugees. But the Kurds have the green light from Turkey for now, who has its own ambitions for resurgence of its old school Ottoman glory. The Kurds will receive independence only if a) A substantial portion of their oil reserves continue to fund Turkey b) They destabilize Iran by supporting a Kurdish insurgency there.

Yes all the dictators protected minorities to strengthen their own position in the state, but they were also driven by secular notions of nationalism or socialism, not Islamism. Even now the Sunni tribes who are negotiating with the new Iraqi government want arms and a lot more autonomy for turning on ISIS, but in the end they will take the areas which ISIS has captured and still create the Sunni State in Iraq and Syria. This Sunni state will have direct access to oil as will their major backers, ie Saudi Arabia and the Gulf emirates. So the Islamists are being manipulated to fight for some extremist notion, the Sunni tribes will be manipulated as well to fight, but in the end it comes down to resource control, the very reason the United States destroyed Iraq in the first place.



I come from a community which has been persecuted by one of the countries you mentioned, for centuries. But I try to take a look at things more objectively. I can't talk for other countries, but I can talk about Iran. In Iran there are dozens of minorities which the Iranian government suppresses aside from religious minorities. The Azeris, the Kurds and the Balochis come to mind, even though they are Muslim and some are even Shi'a but they're not Persian. Women and other intellectuals are also suppressed in Iran, but Iran has a growing atheist and secular movements and the youth are moving away from extreme Shi'a Islam. Yet the country is projected as this state filled with Shi'a fanatics.

In summary, yes people are doing horrible things in the name of Islam. But in the end I have no choice but to realize that the main supporters and builders of these extremists are doing it for Power and Money, which is why every state does things. That's not to say that there aren't Muslims who don't believe in their own version of extremism and wish to spread it throughtout the world. But they're being manipulated in the end. It's the same with the Right wing militias in the Ukraine, Taliban in Afghanistan, etc.

I agree with much of what you say but I still lay the blame at what Islam espouses for being the over-riding reason countries, such as Iran, are the way they are. You, as a Zoroastrian obviously should understand Islamic persecution for being a non-Moslem better than most for your Persian civilisation was wiped out by it (although Persian culture itself somewhat survived which likely explains the less extreme views of many Iranians). I lived under Islam for a few years, and whilst I was young I still remember all too well what it meant to be a non Moslem living within the shadow of Islam.

It is simply no coincidence that all 49 Moslem majority lands are to varying degrees human rights abominations with disproportionate persecution of religious minorities, oppression of women and intolerance to homosexuality - it is all there in Islam’s holy texts. I have never seen anyone come up with a better explanation for why all these lands spread across North Africa, the Middle east, Asia and the Orient share such similar characteristics (characteristics we are starting to see in Islamic Diasporas here in the West). The elephant in the room is Islam.

 

[MD]

I agree with much of what you say but I still lay the blame at what Islam espouses for being the over-riding reason countries, such as Iran, are the way they are. You, as a Zoroastrian obviously should understand Islamic persecution for being a non-Moslem better than most for your Persian civilisation was wiped out by it (although Persian culture itself somewhat survived which likely explains the less extreme views of many Iranians). I lived under Islam for a few years, and whilst I was young I still remember all too well what it meant to be a non Moslem living within the shadow of Islam.

It is simply no coincidence that all 49 Moslem majority lands are to varying degrees human rights abominations with disproportionate persecution of religious minorities, oppression of women and intolerance to homosexuality - it is all there in Islam’s holy texts. I have never seen anyone come up with a better explanation for why all these lands spread across North Africa, the Middle east, Asia and the Orient share such similar characteristics (characteristics we are starting to see in Islamic Diasporas here in the West). The elephant in the room is Islam.

I agree with the fact that the records in Islamic countries is pretty bad. But you cannot lump all Muslims in one bunch, there are 1.8 billion of them. It's easy to get angry and lash out, but the reality is that there are Muslim nationalists, secularists, liberals, socialists and Islamists. I watched a Vice documentary on how Christians flocked to Kurdish lands during the Islamist ethnic cleansings in Iraq and Syria, and how Muslims Kurdish militias have died to protect these Christians. I will never forget that.

A LOT of it has to do with freedom of expression and the brutality of the governments in these countries which suppress all liberal forms of thought. In a poll done on Iranian Americans, only 30% identified as muslim and it was 50% a few years ago. In Iran Zoroastrians are only 0.04% but in the poll it was 2% of Iranian Americans identified as Zoroastrian. 11% were non religious, in Iran if you are non religious you are executed.

Also Iranian Americans are some of the most well educated and successful groups in America. Even a group like Pakistanis who are poor and involved in a lot of crime and jihadism in Europe, are one of the most successful groups in America due to better integration.

One thing I will agree with you is that the Islamic world is gaining more Islamists, because when you suppress all forms of liberal thought you allow the more fanatical expressions to thrive. Free forms of intellectual thinking are important for any civilization to grow and prosper, otherwise they either decay and collapse or become more and more fanatical. Also the economic prosperity of Turkey and the Gulf States/Saudi have paved the way for sponsoring Islamic armies (which they can control though) with imperialistic designs.

 

[gnostic]

You are just underestimating the Muslims. There is something which you might not be aware of. Scholars heavily criticized the hadith and have pointed out in many published books the hadiths which they believe to be false.

I'm sorry if you think my view is a bit over the top.

It is cynicism in me. It's the way I am.

Each individual can be seen as idealist, dreamer, optimist, pessimist, realist, cynic, humanist, perfectionist, etc. you could possess one or more of these qualities or attributes.

I have a bit of everything, idealist, dreamer, humanist, realist, cynic.

Cynic, on the other hand, believe that people's views and actions, are motivated by self-interests.

Cynicism is polar opposite of humanism, but I have both sides within me.

I am still a humanist, who want to see the best in everyone. And I still believe that we should treat our fellow human beings well or better, instead of relying on the supernatural beings or divine signs or intervention. There are still goodness in men, and I have seen men can be generous and compassionate, or have acted selflessly.

But over the years, reality set in, and my outlook has changed. Although I still try to look for the best in people, they often let me down and I am not so trusting. So the cynicism and realism have creep in me.

I didn't know much about the Islam, and met only very few Muslims in college/university. There are more Muslims here, but I knew of none when I was growing up. Before 9-11, I was very neutral about Islam and Muslims. I had no feeling about Islam or Muslims or at all; didn't like or dislike them.

With any religious group, it was Christianity that got into my paw, after my bad experience with one, when I was 18 or 19 with a much older student, pastor who was studying there at that time; I was only a week or so from converting into his church. From that point on, I don't trust the church, clergy or their teaching. It's long story.

Realism and cynicism haven't strip away all of idealistic view and humanism in me, because I still value human life, and believe that we can rise above the occasions to do the right things, good things, but I just expect less from others than I used to.

I am less trusting of what I hear and what I read, today, and it is not just about Islam or Muslims. It is about everything, whether they be social, political or about religion.

It may be wrong to generalise, but I do see patterns, in which religion (not just Islam), cause much of the woes in the world today, and in past history. This is because religion, such Islam, Christianity and Hinduism, get involved in politics and in cultures and societies. Sure, religions have benefit individuals and group of people, but they are not without their negative impacts.

If they want me to trust a religion, then I would like to see tangible evidences, and not some prophecies or revelations from scriptures, prophets, angels or deity, which can be interpreted in any way.

I think people who see scriptures as the answer to their problems in this ever-changing world, are the cause of most problems. Life is never in black-and-white and never static, and this is where I think the problems arise.

ISIS want Islamic State and Sharia law, and they are really determine to impose it upon people, even if it meant killing fellow-Muslims. And that what's they are doing. They are butchering their ways through Syria and Iraq.

I am not only ones who are cynic about Muslims or with Islam. People, like steeltoes, blame everything on the West for what happenings on the Iraq, blaming the US and Israel, but part of the problems are the Muslims themselves. The Sunni and Shiites hated and don't trust each others. Resentment, sectarian tribalism have been brewing for centuries.

And both sides have a lot of problems with minorities, like Ahmadi, Sufi and Baha'i, and persecuted them. So how are Sunni and Shiite any different from past Christian history, in which different sects hated others? (eg Catholics vs Protestants, Catholics vs Orthodox, etc)

This why I don't trust any religious group, whether they be Christians or Muslims. These two, because they are the ones, who have tried to convert others all over the world, and history (as well as current events) have shown they have tried to impose their rules (or rules of religions) on others. Of course, not all Christians and Muslims act in this way. I think those who act in this way, have powers (military, political, social or religious, or any combination of the above) and powers tends to corrupt people.

I am sure you have seen posts here in which Muslims blame Christians, Americans, Israeli, or in general - the West. You don't think Muslims don't judge others?

But you are right, we shouldn't judge or generalise. It is easy said than done, especially if you are asking a cynic like me.

 

[TashaN]

You completely ignored my point and have dramatically changed topics. Why is that Tashan? You said we can’t compare the actions of ISIS in 2014 to those which clearly inspired them as conducted by Muhammad in the 7th Century. I would like you to address this please because I am quite certain that in 2014 the god of Islam would be more than happy for Muhammad, and by extension Moslems, to behead non Moslems in defence of the faith.

Why do you have issues with the beheading incident which took place more than 1400 years a go as a response to an act of treason by others, and have absolutely no issue with the crusade war in the 21st century waged by the civilized world or as they love to call themselves the free world?! Isn't this considered to be a double standard? or even more it could be seen as nothing but an act of hypocrisy.

Now, I will briefly address your point about Worldwide Moslem condemnation.

I do sincerely hope that you are not suggesting that Moslems worldwide are up in arms about ISIS? If so then by all means please do point me in the direction of all the outpouring of moral outrage by Moslems the world over which is akin to what we saw when a certain Youtube video was made, or some cartoons were drawn, or a teddy bear was named Muhammad or Israel defended itself etc etc. I seemed to have missed it Tashan. Indeed, Moslems do not appear to deem the acts carried out by ISIS in the name of Islam as a violation of their faith in quite the same way they do a Katy Perry video (which was pulled before the real carnage began).

Maybe because they are busy with fighting them?

Therefore, I can only assume you refer to ‘statements’ made by ‘prominent’ Moslems such as Iyad Bin Amin Madani, secretary general of the OIC, who released a condemning statement (that was actually a lot less condemning when in read its entirety) and was typical of the self serving empty platitudes we see served up by Moslem clerics and community leaders here in Britain in order to protect Islam’s self proclaimed title of ‘the religion of peace’ and deflect any of the oh so needed enquiry it needs.

I can say empty platitudes because good ole Iyad Bin Amin Madani is a very important Saudi Cleric (hint hint – he is secretary general of the OIC) and in his statement he talks about how ISIS have nothing to do with Islam’s virtues of fairness, tolerance, freedom of faith, co-existence, and kindness. So does this mean we will see Iyad Madani championing for the rights of Christians, Jews and Hindus to practice their faith freely in Saudi Arabia then? Will we see him help build Churches and Synagogues which are thus far banned from existence in a land shaped by the religion of peace and fairness, and tolerance and kindness? Will we see the wholesale emancipation of 50% of its population (i.e. women) any time soon???

You have no right to demand to have churches in our holy places as i have no right to claim building mosques in Vatican city.

So, we can see then that the standards by what this particularly important Moslem judges to be kindness and tolerance to be rather dubious. Furthermore, when viewed through a prism of Islamic theology we see that the meaning of fairness, tolerance, freedom of faith, co-existence and kindness may also be somewhat different to that held by the non Moslem at a more general level. You see - in Islam’s perfect book Allah is deemed to be merciful for prescribing for the Non Moslem two options – convert to Islam or die OR pay an additional poll tax. Not very merciful if you ask me. Shall we discuss what the islamically inspired Shariah Law has to say about fairness, tolerance, freedom of faith, co-existence and kindness??? We could just look to all 47 Moslem majority countries couldn’t we Tashan.

Sure, be my guest. We can discuss shariah law anytime you want but not in this thread. Maybe you can start another thread not to go off-topic.

As for your puerile point about why don’t all Moslems join ISIS – well firstly we can exclude all Moslems but the Sunni denomination in this. Of the Sunni’s which remain - well ….erm….noone said all Moslems are blood thirsty Jihadi’s wishing or willing to maim and behead have they? Nor does this pedantic point take into account all that would be involved to leave your job, family and life to take up arms and go risk your life for this particular cause (there is a reason most foreign Jihadi's in Syria/ISIS are 18-31 years old). I’d love to visit Australia – a big dream of mine, but making it happen is easier said than done but because I haven’t done it tells you nothing about my dream to do it nor does the fact that I haven't done it preclude that I don't want to do it does it Tashan.

Now – the fact that most Moslems subscribe to baseline human behaviour of not actually wishing to kill or join Islamic militia does not mean that most Moslems do not hold the desire to live under or indeed to see the world come under the rule of Islam – a goal which funnily enough is the end point of ISIS. To get an idea of the attitudes of societies forged by Islam’s doctrine we could just look to how minorities are treated in all Moslem majority countries as already mentioned

Dah! Sunni Muslims makes up 75%–90% of all Muslims. You treat them as if they were 2% or 3% of all Muslims.

Seriously, I couldn't care less what people think of me as a Muslim and i don't need to prove anything to you.

Enough to see the invasion of the *civilized world* of Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and many other places, not to mention drone activities all over the Muslim world killing innocent people everyday.

That's why i'm going to repeat again, again, and again that i don't care what you think of me as a Muslim or what you think of Islam. The only cure for ignorance is reading, and if people are not willing to read history and know the truth and complete picture of Islam then i can't really help them.

So you are happy to make statements about how the actions of ISIS directly contravene the teachings of Islam but cannot offer up any proof to support it? That is quite dissapointing.

I do not doubt your sincerity or kindness on a personal level but I am sure you can appreciate that as a Non Moslem watching the actions of ISIS et al - I need a bit more than soundbites to convince me Islam does not say what ISIS say it does.

ISIS is against everything which Islam stands for. In fact, Prophet Mohamed warned us from them. They might be the ones whom he described as "the Dogs of Hell fire".

Prophet Muhammad said that there will be a group of people who will be worst of all, and HE called them worst of all creatures. Recorded by Muslim (no. 1067) and it is in “Ṣaḥīḥ al-Jāmi’” by al-Albānī (no. 2035).

Abū Dharr narrated that Allah’s messenger s.a.w.w said: Aḥmad, Muslim, and Ibn Mājah
“There will definitely be a people after me from my nation who recite the Quran yet it will not even reach beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion as an arrow passes through a target, then they will not return back to it. They are the worst of people, the worst of all creatures.”

Ibn Mājah no. 174 and it is in “Ṣaḥīḥ al-Jāmi’” by al-Albānī (no. 8027).
Ibn ‘Umarr.a that the messenger of Allah s.a.w.w said:

“There will arise a group of people who will recite the Quran but it will not reach beyond their throats. Every time a new generation of them rises, they will then disappear.”

You can read the rest below:
Dogs of Hell Khawarij

 

[Smart_Guy]

Why do you have issues with the beheading incident which took place more than 1400 years a go as a response to an act of treason by others, and have absolutely no issue with the crusade war in the 21st century waged by the civilized world or as they love to call themselves the free world?! Isn't this considered to be a double standard? or even more it could be seen as nothing but an act of hypocrisy.

Maybe because they are busy with fighting them?

You have no right to demand to have churches in our holy places as i have no right to claim building mosques in Vatican city.

Sure, be my guest. We can discuss shariah law anytime you want but not in this thread. Maybe you can start another thread not to go off-topic.

Dah! Sunni Muslims makes up 75%–90% of all Muslims. You treat them as if they were 2% or 3% of all Muslims.

Seriously, I couldn't care less what people think of me as a Muslim and i don't need to prove anything to you.

Enough to see the invasion of the *civilized world* of Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and many other places, not to mention drone activities all over the Muslim world killing innocent people everyday.

That's why i'm going to repeat again, again, and again that i don't care what you think of me as a Muslim or what you think of Islam. The only cure for ignorance is reading, and if people are not willing to read history and know the truth and complete picture of Islam then i can't really help them.

ISIS is against everything which Islam stands for. In fact, Prophet Mohamed warned us from them. They might be the ones whom he described as "the Dogs of Hell fire".

Prophet Muhammad said that there will be a group of people who will be worst of all, and HE called them worst of all creatures. Recorded by Muslim (no. 1067) and it is in “Ṣaḥīḥ al-Jāmi’” by al-Albānī (no. 2035).

Abū Dharr narrated that Allah’s messenger s.a.w.w said: Aḥmad, Muslim, and Ibn Mājah
“There will definitely be a people after me from my nation who recite the Quran yet it will not even reach beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion as an arrow passes through a target, then they will not return back to it. They are the worst of people, the worst of all creatures.”

Ibn Mājah no. 174 and it is in “Ṣaḥīḥ al-Jāmi’” by al-Albānī (no. 8027).
Ibn ‘Umarr.a that the messenger of Allah s.a.w.w said:

“There will arise a group of people who will recite the Quran but it will not reach beyond their throats. Every time a new generation of them rises, they will then disappear.”

You can read the rest below:
Dogs of Hell Khawarij

Bless you brother.

 

[Looncall]

Quote by me:
"Islam forbids those atrocities they are doing."

I honestly can't explain this further. I also told you about the critical position I'm in. One wrong word here can bring me and my family serious troubles. Your disappointment is not in the right place. Please understand.

So many Muslims are in my position, let alone lack of language control and education that they can't come out to public and tell that they are against some political movement. We do not freedom of speech here. Please understand.

I hope you can stay safe. You need not reply to my comment below, others can do that.

I think it says a lot about about islam when someone living where islam began is in peril of his life if he speaks his mind. It shows that the guff one so constantly hears about islam being peaceful, tolerant etc is mere propaganda. The most oppressive societies on this planet are the muslim ones.

Among other things, that leads to muslims living in other lands being seen with suspicion. The rest of us do not want our societies to become, in any way whatsoever, like muslim-majority societies.

 

[Looncall]

Why do you have issues with the beheading incident which took place more than 1400 years a go as a response to an act of treason by others, and have absolutely no issue with the crusade war in the 21st century waged by the civilized world or as they love to call themselves the free world?! Isn't this considered to be a double standard? or even more it could be seen as nothing but an act of hypocrisy.



Maybe because they are busy with fighting them?



You have no right to demand to have churches in our holy places as i have no right to claim building mosques in Vatican city.



Sure, be my guest. We can discuss shariah law anytime you want but not in this thread. Maybe you can start another thread not to go off-topic.



Dah! Sunni Muslims makes up 75%–90% of all Muslims. You treat them as if they were 2% or 3% of all Muslims.

Seriously, I couldn't care less what people think of me as a Muslim and i don't need to prove anything to you.

Enough to see the invasion of the *civilized world* of Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and many other places, not to mention drone activities all over the Muslim world killing innocent people everyday.

That's why i'm going to repeat again, again, and again that i don't care what you think of me as a Muslim or what you think of Islam. The only cure for ignorance is reading, and if people are not willing to read history and know the truth and complete picture of Islam then i can't really help them.



ISIS is against everything which Islam stands for. In fact, Prophet Mohamed warned us from them. They might be the ones whom he described as "the Dogs of Hell fire".

Prophet Muhammad said that there will be a group of people who will be worst of all, and HE called them worst of all creatures. Recorded by Muslim (no. 1067) and it is in “Ṣaḥīḥ al-Jāmi’” by al-Albānī (no. 2035).

Abū Dharr narrated that Allah’s messenger s.a.w.w said: Aḥmad, Muslim, and Ibn Mājah
“There will definitely be a people after me from my nation who recite the Quran yet it will not even reach beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion as an arrow passes through a target, then they will not return back to it. They are the worst of people, the worst of all creatures.”

Ibn Mājah no. 174 and it is in “Ṣaḥīḥ al-Jāmi’” by al-Albānī (no. 8027).
Ibn ‘Umarr.a that the messenger of Allah s.a.w.w said:

“There will arise a group of people who will recite the Quran but it will not reach beyond their throats. Every time a new generation of them rises, they will then disappear.”

You can read the rest below:
Dogs of Hell Khawarij

So why, if islam is so wonderful, is it so fruitful in producing such people?

 

[TashaN]

I hope you can stay safe. You need not reply to my comment below, others can do that.

I think it says a lot about about islam when someone living where islam began is in peril of his life if he speaks his mind. It shows that the guff one so constantly hears about islam being peaceful, tolerant etc is mere propaganda. The most oppressive societies on this planet are the muslim ones.

Among other things, that leads to muslims living in other lands being seen with suspicion. The rest of us do not want our societies to become, in any way whatsoever, like muslim-majority societies.

I think Western countries are ahead of all other countries. I really apperciate and respect their way of life. Many reformers and activist in the Muslim world advocate for adopting many great western values and i'm one of those who always defend the west when i debate muslims but you might rarely see this side of me here. The problem is when someone find himself constantly on the defence, it becomes very hard to celebrate the west at that particular point.

 

[Chev Chelios]

Why do you have issues with the beheading incident which took place more than 1400 years a go as a response to an act of treason by others, and have absolutely no issue with the crusade war in the 21st century waged by the civilized world or as they love to call themselves the free world?! Isn't this considered to be a double standard? or even more it could be seen as nothing but an act of hypocrisy.

Maybe because they are busy with fighting them?

You have no right to demand to have churches in our holy places as i have no right to claim building mosques in Vatican city.

Sure, be my guest. We can discuss shariah law anytime you want but not in this thread. Maybe you can start another thread not to go off-topic.


Dah! Sunni Muslims makes up 75%–90% of all Muslims. You treat them as if they were 2% or 3% of all Muslims.

Seriously, I couldn't care less what people think of me as a Muslim and i don't need to prove anything to you.

Enough to see the invasion of the *civilized world* of Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and many other places, not to mention drone activities all over the Muslim world killing innocent people everyday.

That's why i'm going to repeat again, again, and again that i don't care what you think of me as a Muslim or what you think of Islam. The only cure for ignorance is reading, and if people are not willing to read history and know the truth and complete picture of Islam then i can't really help them.

ISIS is against everything which Islam stands for. In fact, Prophet Mohamed warned us from them. They might be the ones whom he described as "the Dogs of Hell fire"...................

Ah - so I see that yet again you dodged every point I made, making irrelevant responses whilst you also continue to misquote me. Debating you in a fair manner is obviously fruitless and I will waste no more time.

But before I go I will just point out another misquote of yours. I never once demanded that Moslems build churches in their holy sites and never would. What crazyness is this? Why do you keep making things up??? However - I will say that YES - Moslems should allow Churches and Synagogues to be built in the country of Saudi Arabia - that you disagree is quite apalling but such an attitude is typical of the intolerance of Islam. I hope you do realise that you just proved my point. Thankyou

Oh - and please do explain exactly what this 21st century crusade being waged by the civilised world is???? The last time I checked - ISIS, Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram, Hizbollah, the Moslem Brotehrhood, Hamas, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda etc etc were not a part of the civilised world!!

 

[TashaN]

Ah - so I see that yet again you dodged every point I made, making irrelevant responses whilst you also continue to misquote me. Debating you in a fair manner is obviously fruitless and I will waste no more time.

But before I go I will just point out another misquote of yours. I never once demanded that Moslems build churches in their holy sites and never would. What crazyness is this? Why do you keep making things up??? However - I will say that YES - Moslems should allow Churches and Synagogues to be built in the country of Saudi Arabia - that you disagree is quite apalling but such an attitude is typical of the intolerance of Islam. I hope you do realise that you just proved my point. Thankyou

Oh - and please do explain exactly what this 21st century crusade being waged by the civilised world is???? The last time I checked - ISIS, Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram, Hizbollah, the Moslem Brotehrhood, Hamas, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda etc etc were not a part of the civilised world!!

I didn't dodge a single point because there was none. You were just dancing from one prejudice and misconeption to another without any clear solid point.

When it comes to Crusade, i was referring to the US and UK Crusade against Muslims.

 

[YmirGF]

When it comes to Crusade, i was referring to the US and UK Crusade against Muslims.

What crusade would that be, The Truth?

 

[TashaN]

What crusade would that be, The Truth?

Have a look please!

[youtube]7TRVcnX8Vsw[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TRVcnX8Vsw

[youtube]BttAQopzItk[/youtube]
Bush continues to define WoT in religious terms (aka Jihad). - YouTube

Casualties of the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Humanitarian crises of the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

International Criminal Court and the 2003 invasion of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Drone attacks in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

America Is Running the World

Criticism of the War on Terror - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Targeted killing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United States and state terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United States and state-sponsored terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Chev Chelios]

I didn't dodge a single point because there was none. You were just dancing from one prejudice and misconeption to another without any clear solid point.

When it comes to Crusade, i was referring to the US and UK Crusade against Muslims.

You keep avoiding my points and making things up about what I say but nonetheless I simply to have to point out the ridiculousness of what you are saying.

So let's be clear - you are making the claim that the UK and US are waging a 'crusade' against Moslems? So - the liberation of Moslems from the oppressive boot of the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and Saddam were actually examples of anti-Moslem Western sentiment? Please explain this to me because I am struggling to hold these two idea in my head at the same time as trying to remain calm at the sheer ungratefulness you, as a Moslem, are displaying to the men of the Western forces who laid down their lives to free Moslems from tyranny in order to give them a chance at a fair and decent existence.

Such a big claim requires big evidence –so give me EVIDENCE to support this war of yours which is being waged on Islam by the West.

 

[TashaN]

You keep avoiding my points and making things up about what I say but nonetheless I simply to have to point out the ridiculousness of what you are saying.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. All what i have seen was just gibberish. If you can give very specific clear points i'll be more than happy to respond to them.

So let's be clear - you are making the claim that the UK and US are waging a 'crusade' against Moslems? So - the liberation of Moslems from the oppressive boot of the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and Saddam were actually examples of anti-Moslem Western sentiment? Please explain this to me because I am struggling to hold these two idea in my head at the same time as trying to remain calm at the sheer ungratefulness you, as a Moslem, are displaying to the men of the Western forces who laid down their lives to free Moslems from tyranny in order to give them a chance at a fair and decent existence.

What an arrogant statement! You dare spout this nonsense in front of me?

You want to CONVERT me to your ideology using all means like invasion among other things which result in the killing of thousands of innocent people, and you want the Muslims to be grateful too? that's ridiculous and outrageous! I hope not many people agree with you.

Where do you live? seriously! planet earth?

If you are trying to be the West's advocate then you have failed miserably in representing them. You just proved my point that this is indeed a Crusade war against Islam and Muslims.

Such a big claim requires big evidence –so give me EVIDENCE to support this war of yours which is being waged on Islam by the West.

Just an evidence? how about tons of of them? read post #234 in this thread please.

 

[Chev Chelios]

I'm not sure what you are talking about. All what i have seen was just gibberish. If you can give very specific clear points i'll be more than happy to respond to them.



What an arrogant statement! You dare spout this nonsense in front of me?

You want to CONVERT me to your ideology using all means like invasion among other things which result in the killing of thousands of innocent people, and you want the Muslims to be grateful too? that's ridiculous and outrageous! I hope not many people agree with you.

Where do you live? seriously! planet earth?

If you are trying to be the West's advocate then you have failed miserably in representing them. You just proved my point that this is indeed a Crusade war against Islam and Muslims.



Just an evidence? how about tons of of them? read post #234 in this thread please.

I reassert my point - the 'war on terror' was waged against oppressive regimes called the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and Saddams Dictatorship - this war was NOT fought against Moslems. You have supplied absolutely no evidence what so ever to demonstrate that the West are specifically trying to kill innocent Moslem civilians which leads me to believe that you have no idea what you are saying - but if you think you do then such a serious topic demands that you qualify your statements. I do not accept wikipaedia pages nor do I accept links - give me your argument on this forum in your own words as to why you think the West are waging war against Moslems and give empirical facts to support it rather than mere 'theories'..

This bizarre claim of yours is at deep odds with many things, not the least because here in the UK our society bends over backwards to welcome in and accommodate Moslems - a bit strange if we are so hell bent on their destruction don't you think? You will have to explain why we didn't jump at the opportunity to wipe out more innocent Moslems when we had the chance to intervene in Syria - less we not forget much of the Moslem 'world' were begging for Western intervention. Furthermore, to prove your hypothesis correct you are really going to have to explain Western intervention to save Moslems from being slaughtered, such as in the Balkans - military action which I have not ever heard one word of thanks from Moslems for.

 

[TashaN]

I reassert my point - the 'war on terror' was waged against oppressive regimes called the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and Saddams Dictatorship - this war was NOT fought against Moslems.

Who is the one dodging the points now? You are changing your position now?

Didn't you just said earlier which i quoted in my previous post that you want to liberate me and that i should be grateful for it?

You have supplied absolutely no evidence what so ever to demonstrate that the West are specifically trying to kill innocent Moslem civilians which leads me to believe that you have no idea what you are saying - but if you think you do then such a serious topic demands that you qualify your statements. I do not accept wikipaedia pages nor do I accept links - give me your argument on this forum in your own words as to why you think the West are waging war against Moslems and give empirical facts to support it rather than mere 'theories'..

Wiki pages have sources at the bottom and you could check on them. So, I don't care whether you like links or not. I'm not going to spoon-feed you. You have to do your own homework before coming here to represent the mighty Holy West.

here in the UK our society bends over backwards to welcome in and accommodate Moslems - a bit strange if we are so hell bent on their destruction don't you think? You will have to explain why we didn't jump at the opportunity to wipe out more innocent Moslems when we had the chance to intervene in Syria - less we not forget much of the Moslem 'world' were begging for Western intervention. Furthermore, to prove your hypothesis correct you are really going to have to explain Western intervention to save Moslems from being slaughtered, such as in the Balkans - military action which I have not ever heard one word of thanks from Moslems for.

I was quite puzzled on whether to call that statement an arrogant one, or a representative of white supremacy. You know what, maybe all of it.

By saying all of this, you are proving that the West is not special in anyway, and not civilized at all. How can they dare call themselves the free world if this is how they think?!

How can they teach me as a backward illiterate ungrateful ignorant barbaric Muslim how to behave, how to think, and how to be civilized?

I don't see how what you believe in would be any different than the crusaders during Spain Reconquista who treated my ancestors badly through torture, forced conversion, killing, and expulsion of many other Muslims and Jews from Spain for not being Christians like them. I bet those uncivilized Jews and Muslims were being *liberated* from their own ignorance, and they too should be grateful for what the crusaders have done. We need to send them a letter of appreciation, kiss their hand, bow down, and praise the lord for they have cleaned us from our sins!

 

[YmirGF]

Have a look please!

[youtube]7TRVcnX8Vsw[/youtube]
9/11 George Bush - This Crusade Is Gonna Take A While ( Sept 17 2001) - YouTube

[youtube]BttAQopzItk[/youtube]
Bush continues to define WoT in religious terms (aka Jihad). - YouTube

Casualties of the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Humanitarian crises of the Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

International Criminal Court and the 2003 invasion of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Drone attacks in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

America Is Running the World

Criticism of the War on Terror - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Targeted killing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United States and state terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United States and state-sponsored terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ok, I do see that you have a point, TashaN. I was never comfortable with the expression "War on Terror" as it is such a vague term, however, defining the actions of the West as a "crusade" was extremely poor usage of the word from Bush. I'm fairly confident that the average Brit, Canadian or American never saw it as a "crusade" regardless of what George Bush said in his ill-conceived comment.

 

[YmirGF]

So let's be clear - you are making the claim that the UK and US are waging a 'crusade' against Moslems? So - the liberation of Moslems from the oppressive boot of the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and Saddam were actually examples of anti-Moslem Western sentiment? Please explain this to me because I am struggling to hold these two idea in my head at the same time as trying to remain calm at the sheer ungratefulness you, as a Moslem, are displaying to the men of the Western forces who laid down their lives to free Moslems from tyranny in order to give them a chance at a fair and decent existence.

Such a big claim requires big evidence –so give me EVIDENCE to support this war of yours which is being waged on Islam by the West.

Again, I have to admit that this is a bit over the top, even by my standards. IN OUR ARROGANCE, we largely assumed that people the world over wanted what we wanted. It was a very great shock to us to find out that many of them did not. For example, the Taliban may not have been what the people in the cities were keen to have governing them, but in the rural areas of Afghanistan, the Taliban was pretty much the normal way of life and have been for centuries. In our terms, it is very hard to expect a people to be grateful for giving them a life they never had, that was foreign to everything they knew.