Is it moral for God to punish us?

[Greatest I am]

Would a parent kill their child because the child was really bad. Of course not. So I don't think God is going to be killing or sending to hell forever his children, either.

Yet Christian dogma says that the vast majority of us end in hell or death at God's hand.

Your thinking goes against dogma.

Regards
DL

 

[Fool]

Yes and both Christianity and Islam are idol worshiping religions that set love aside for the benefits they think their idol will give them.

Love is only a mystery to those who have yet to find it.

Regards
DL

Love is Eternal.

Based on the no-hiding-theorem. It transcends space and time, making it infinite = eternal.

http://phys.org/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html.

Love might appear different in form but never in action. Energy cannot be created/formed so it is simply transformed/transfigured.


Love enlightens. the love of 5000 yrs ago is no different than love 5000 yrs from now.

God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Love is eternal.


Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.


1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


Matthew 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

 

[Greatest I am]

Love is Eternal.

Based on the no-hiding-theorem. It transcends space and time, making it infinite = eternal.

http://phys.org/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html.

Love might appear different in form but never in action. Energy cannot be created/formed so it is simply transformed/transfigured.


Love enlightens. the love of 5000 yrs ago is no different than love 5000 yrs from now.

God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Love is eternal.


Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.


1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


Matthew 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

The love preached by religions is not love at all.

If it were, they would not be producing homophobic and misogynous people.

To call God love is not too bright as love has one meaning and it is not the same meaning as the word God.

If we can call God love then he can also be called hate.

Regards
DL

 

[Neo Deist]

Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL

The entire OP premise is based on the writings of primitive humans, who were often barbaric, and had very little scientific or medical knowledge.

How do we know God is all powerful? The Bible implies it.
How do we know God is all knowing? The Bible implies it.
How do we know God has a plan and is control? Humans interpret the Bible to say that.

Unless God comes down from the cosmos, stands before you and gives you clear instructions, all you have are some theories based on human literary creation. If you choose to believe that the Bible is absolute and the word of God, well that is your choice, and you certainly have the right to think that way. On the other hand, science and modern technology has proven that the Bible is not as accurate as people would make it out to be.

 

[Greatest I am]

The entire OP premise is based on the writings of primitive humans, who were often barbaric, and had very little scientific or medical knowledge.

How do we know God is all powerful? The Bible implies it.
How do we know God is all knowing? The Bible implies it.
How do we know God has a plan and is control? Humans interpret the Bible to say that.

Unless God comes down from the cosmos, stands before you and gives you clear instructions, all you have are some theories based on human literary creation. If you choose to believe that the Bible is absolute and the word of God, well that is your choice, and you certainly have the right to think that way. On the other hand, science and modern technology has proven that the Bible is not as accurate as people would make it out to be.

No argument on the source of the theology. I recognize it to be garbage.

That is why I want theists to look at the moral aspect of their immoral belief.

Regards
DL

 

[Fool]

The love preached by religions is not love at all.

If it were, they would not be producing homophobic and misogynous people.

To call God love is not too bright as love has one meaning and it is not the same meaning as the word God.

If we can call God love then he can also be called hate.

Regards
DL

ah but having righteous anger is an issue? that is what satan represents. the destroyer of illusions.

i didn't bring up homophobia, misogyny, or hate.

i spoke of love; which transcends religions, sex, gender, cultures, ideologies, et al

even gnostic exclusivity.

god is love. that the law is fulfilled in being benevolent. love is divine. the ultimate state of nirvana and bliss. the ocean of love.

a heart completely filled with love can't manifest hatred.

deutoronomy 6:5
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

love does not show disparity. love makes all things equal and thus justice must be met in the balance.

books are like rorschach tests. they say a lot about the viewer vs the book which explains something from multiple points of view in space and time.

 

[Greatest I am]

ah but having righteous anger is an issue? that is what satan represents. the destroyer of illusions.

i didn't bring up homophobia, misogyny, or hate.

i spoke of love; which transcends religions, sex, gender, cultures, ideologies, et al

even gnostic exclusivity.

i just showed you a quote where it is stated in the christian bible that god is love. that the law is fulfilled in being benevolent.

a heart completely filled with love can't manifest hatred.

deutoronomy 6:5
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

love does not show disparity. love makes all things equal and thus justice must be met in the balance.

books are like rorschach tests. they say a lot about the viewer vs the book which explains something from multiple points of view in space and time.

"a heart completely filled with love can't manifest hatred."

This is quite the assumption.

Who do you know with such a heart?

Just so you know. I have debated with a number of priests face to face and when they could not give any clear answer to a moral point, they went into their, --- God is love and works in mysterious ways, --- excuse before ending our talks.

To their lying shame.

Regards
DL

 

[Fool]

"a heart completely filled with love can't manifest hatred."

This is quite the assumption.

Who do you know with such a heart?

Just so you know. I have debated with a number of priests face to face and when they could not give any clear answer to a moral point, they went into their, --- God is love and works in mysterious ways, --- excuse before ending our talks.

To their lying shame.

Regards
DL

with all due respect, i'm not impressed with whom you've debated before.

so you believe that something full of itself can be something more? or otherwise?

you believe that someone cannot have anger and still be loving?

are you not angry at injustice? is this not what love does, is to create a state of equilibrium?

you have some other definition for absolute? infinite? eternal?



http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/absolute?s=t

i'm no priest.

 

[Etritonakin]

Keep running all you like. You cannot hide from your own thoughts.

Regards
DL

I'm just avoiding potentially weird material. Do you have a real question? ...a point you would like to discuss?

Your post was like a weird friend asking me to taste some unknown thing. No effing thanks.

Some stuff is really effed up and I definitely avoid it. I run like hell from stuff others are too stupid to avoid, too.

I do not hide from my own thoughts -I rule my own spirit.

Is there a point, or are you trying to waste my time?

 

[Greatest I am]

with all due respect, i'm not impressed with whom you've debated before.

so you believe that something full of itself can be something more? or otherwise?

you believe that someone cannot have anger and still be loving?

are you not angry at injustice? is this not what love does, is to create a state of equilibrium?

you have some other definition for absolute? infinite? eternal?



http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/absolute?s=t

i'm no priest.

Anger is closer to hate than love. You make my point.

There is no heart that is full of love. That is why you could not name one.

The moment one creates a love bias for someone, they create a hate bias against others.

Here is an enlightening clip for you showing how even as babies we do this.

Do not let your romanticism and poetic tones make you ignore reality with foolish view like God being love.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I'm just avoiding potentially weird material. Do you have a real question? ...a point you would like to discuss?

Your post was like a weird friend asking me to taste some unknown thing. No effing thanks.

Some stuff is really effed up and I definitely avoid it. I run like hell from stuff others are too stupid to avoid, too.

I do not hide from my own thoughts -I rule my own spirit.

Is there a point, or are you trying to waste my time?

I was just proving that a creator God does not exist or that he is quite incompetent if he does exist and should not be called a God.

Regards
DL

 

[Etritonakin]

I was just proving that a creator God does not exist or that he is quite incompetent if he does exist and should not be called a God.

Regards
DL

To.... yourself? That doesn't sound very difficult. Why did you involve me?

Anyway -figured it was something like that. I'd explain why you are incorrect, but experience is a better teacher.

 

[Neo Deist]

I was just proving that a creator God does not exist or that he is quite incompetent if he does exist and should not be called a God.

Regards
DL

There, we disagree. As a deist, I believe in God as the creator. My belief is based on personal observations in nature and the cosmos, and has nothing to do with ancient holy texts written by men claiming divine revelation.

Nor do I see God as incompetent. The laws of nature were created and everything was set in motion. Things happen because that is the way the universe works. God does not need to be at the helm, driving the ship. I believe in free will, and with it comes responsibility and consequences. Bad things happen because someone chooses to do something bad, or events follow a natural path (think tornado).

Welcome to deism logic!

 

[Smart_Guy]

Yet Jesus, a good man, did not get the reward you say he should have gotten and the evil ones who deserve the punishment you say is do them, will not be given to them.

You hell believers sure do not think well.

Regards
DL

Provide proof of your claim and educate me, you know-it-all greatest one!

 

[Lyndon]

Yet Christian dogma says that the vast majority of us end in hell or death at God's hand.

Your thinking goes against dogma.

Regards
DL

That's you're belief, not mine.

 

[allfoak]

So God gets us all into heaven. Right?

Your God is a Universalist God. Right?

Regards
DL

God is God.
There is no other.
All other supposed gods came from the One, the Ancient of Days (meaning: before there were days).

God does not get us into anywhere.
The Kingdom of Heaven is a place that we must enter on our own.
The return to the Father is made by choice.

 

[Sleeppy]

No. A moral God would not create any of us better than the other.

Regards
DL

Is this observable?

 

[Fool]

Anger is closer to hate than love. You make my point.

There is no heart that is full of love. That is why you could not name one.

The moment one creates a love bias for someone, they create a hate bias against others.

Here is an enlightening clip for you showing how even as babies we do this.

Do not let your romanticism and poetic tones make you ignore reality with foolish view like God being love.

Regards
DL

i wasn't speaking of a person in general, no. you were. i'm not here to fulfill illusions that one person can be more perfect than another.

love is not exclusive to any one person, culture, or nation.


and being angry is not closer to hatred.

hatred is based in fear and fear is based in ignorance.

with love comes light. with hatred comes darkness and disillusionment.

 

[Greatest I am]

To.... yourself? That doesn't sound very difficult. Why did you involve me?

Anyway -figured it was something like that. I'd explain why you are incorrect, but experience is a better teacher.

Then you do not know love.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

There, we disagree. As a deist, I believe in God as the creator. My belief is based on personal observations in nature and the cosmos, and has nothing to do with ancient holy texts written by men claiming divine revelation.

Nor do I see God as incompetent. The laws of nature were created and everything was set in motion. Things happen because that is the way the universe works. God does not need to be at the helm, driving the ship. I believe in free will, and with it comes responsibility and consequences. Bad things happen because someone chooses to do something bad, or events follow a natural path (think tornado).

Welcome to deism logic!

You can delude yourself into believing whatever you like. You still have nothing to show to prove you are correct.

Gods of the Gaps are a dime a dozen and that is what you have created for yourself.

Regards
DL