Is it moral for God to punish us?

[psychoslice]

so then.....we are not a reflection of Something Greater?

We are as the mind body organism a reflection, but that's only because most don't realize that they are one with all there is, its like saying the wave on the ocean is nothing but a refection of the ocean when it is the ocean, the same with us.

 

[psychoslice]

Well.... I'd say the right thing and peace aren't winning the day... Or history, overall...

The "extra rules" -such as the first few of the ten commandments -are necessary for eternal peace -but also to make right all of the evil which has been thus far. Law must have a real and accurate foundation -and that is the reality of the existence of God.

The saying "God is equal" in the bible does not just mean he is fair -but that all of the evil on this side of the equation will be turned to good on the other side of the equation.

That is also why it is written that he gave the creation over to futility in hope -and that the creation now subject to disorder awaits the liberty of the children of God.

It is understandable that many do not believe, but according to scripture those drawn by God (though not all who believe they are) to truly understand God's extra rules (man also makes some up, but they are different) and their necessity in this time -called "first fruits" -will actually comprise the literal government under God and Christ in the future.

It will be a government capable of causing and teaching peace.
After it is established those humans alive at the time will repopulate the earth, and all who have ever lived will eventually be resurrected to that situation -which could not have been without this situation, and the government will serve for their benefit. It will not be as human government -which is served by those governed.
They will not merely be raised again as humans, but will also have the opportunity for immortality then.
It is written that the heavens and earth were not created in vain, but were formed to be inhabited -and we will then be given awesome power to create througought the universe -being given a body similar to that which allowed the creation of the universe and earth.

God alone is capable of bringing that about -so having no other gods before God is both logical and necessary for universal order.

sorry I don't resonate with there being a god.

 

[Thief]

We are as the mind body organism a reflection, but that's only because most don't realize that they are one with all there is, its like saying the wave on the ocean is nothing but a refection of the ocean when it is the ocean, the same with us.

not buying it.
far too many 'minds' of separate perspective.

we were made to be unique.

 

[ether-ore]

Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

DL

Since the scenario you are outlining obviously makes no sense, why not look for or consider on that does? What would be valid scriptural conditions where God is all knowing and all powerful and yet we have free agency? That might suggest a scenario where history is not set. It might also ask us to think about what it means to be all knowing in terms of causation. May I suggest that knowing the future does not cause the future.

 

[Etritonakin]

sorry I don't resonate with there being a god.

I can accept that. No need to apologize. If I were born you, I would be you. If you were born me, you would be me.

That thought probably freaks me out more than any other.

It also causes me to accept everyone.

Equalization of individual existential and psychological states seems perfectly logical to me -even mathematically certain.

 

[psychoslice]

not buying it.
far too many 'minds' of separate perspective.

we were made to be unique.

Yes we are unique, but so is everything else, so if everything is unique, then why even raise the thought. Our minds isn't our true Self, we are all one in Consciousness, our minds are nothing more than collective conditioning and programming. If you were born in another culture and had different parents you wouldn't be who you are today.

 

[Thief]

Yes we are unique, but so is everything else, so if everything is unique, then why even raise the thought. Our minds isn't our true Self, we are all one in Consciousness, our minds are nothing more than collective conditioning and programming. If you were born in another culture and had different parents you wouldn't be who you are today.

ok....random locations are an influence....but...

the unique feature would still be there.
and I believe it is intentional.

God doesn't want to talk to His own Echo.
it's boring

 

[psychoslice]

ok....random locations are an influence....but...

the unique feature would still be there.
and I believe it is intentional.

God doesn't want to talk to His own Echo.
it's boring

What do you mean by unique features, we are all what we are because of billions of years of evolution, this is what gave us our so called uniqueness.

 

[Augustus]

Yes it was.
You can't magic away WW1, WW2, Naziism and Communism just cos they 'buck the trend'.

The mongolian wars under Genghis Khan were a lot worse. It is estimated that 10-11% of the entire world's population were killed in these wars, as opposed to about 2-3% in the WW1 and WW2.

Forgot to add the commie deaths of maybe 100 million in China, maybe 60 million in the USSR, 2.5 million in Cambodia, North Korea 1.5 million etc.

Then the Nazis.

Colonialism must have picked up quite a few million more too too.

The wars in Congo, Afghanistan, Sudan, Biafra, Ethiopian, Mozambique, Manchuria, Armenian genocide all at or around the million mark or higher.

Countless others with hundreds of thousands of casualties.

In terms of total numbers it was certainly the deadliest century. If we are talking proportionally, then it is also certainly there or there about. Older figures are estimates anyway so cover a wide range. Whether it is the deadliest century or only the 2nd or 3rd deadliest isn't that important anyway.

It doesn't support the hypothesis that we are becoming nicer and more peaceful. That's why people making these arguments tend to start from 1945 onwards in making their claims.

 

[Pocongsetengahsalmon]

Assalamualaikum...
PEACE UPON EVERYONE

Guten tag! Good day! I would like to answer, "Is it moral for God to punish us?"

Let's make an analogy...
Mankind as a child
God as parents

Every parents love their children. If their children did wrong things or something that would hurt them, their parents would warn and tell them not to do that. Sometimes parents would "punish" their children , so that their children would never do it again.

When parents gave a "punishment" to their children. That doesn't mean that parents do not love their children. It's because they love their children so much, that parents would warn and punish their children for doing bad things. If parents are just ignorant about their children, children would think that it is ok to do bad things and they would eventually do it again. It is immoral for parents to just ignoring their children.

This work same as God. God gave punishments so that mankind would not be astray. Punishments are also a warning for us so that we wouldn't do it again. Sometimes, it is also a test so that we would become a stronger human being.

Finally, we have to understand that there is a wisdom in everything that happens to anyone. We have to remember that Allah does not enjoy punishing anyone. If one is tested with certain trials, he has to stop and check his faith and his relationship with Allah. The test is sometimes meant to cleanse one from the sins committed and a reminder that there is an utmost just God who wants the best for His servants.

In the face of trials, one has to observe patience in order to earn the reward that Allah will give to those who are afflicted with trials. We read in the Quran:

{We shall certainly test you with fear and hunger, and loss of property, lives, and crops. But [Prophet], give good news to those who are steadfast, those who say, when afflicted with a calamity, ‘We belong to God and to Him we shall return.’ These will be given blessings and mercy from their Lord, and it is they who are rightly guided.} (Al-Baqarah 2:155-156)

I hope this helps answer your question.

 

[Greatest I am]

Surely you can work out that that's not the only other option.

I quite like knowledge, I just know it can't save us. Thinking it can is the real ignorance.

Surely I cannot work it out and I see that you dis not offer anything either.

You like knowledge yet would discard it because only those without it can be saved.

So you would suggest that none of us give our children any knowledge.

And you do not see that as evil and ignorant.

You show clearly how your religion has corrupted your moral sense.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Knowledge must be combined with wisdom, compassion, empathy and virtue in order for it to make a positive change.

I agree and agree with the bible that it all begins with knowledge.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Where does it say in the bible that God is ALL knowing? Where does it say God is ALL powerful? If god isn't Omnimax and his intention is to create a utopian society populated by compassionate, decent, and law abiding people in the future then his moral's are comparable to a normal decent persons.

I and the bible God agree.

Gen3;22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

The bible does say that God is omnipotent and all powerful.

Revelation 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

I do agree that his power is demonstrably overstated. He cannot even reproduce a true son and can only do a half breed chimera. If one is foolish enough to believe in that literal Jesus that is.

Note that from this rather decent position of God having our morals, Christianity , with their literal reading of the myth, turned a good God into a vile and immoral demiurge.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Assalamualaikum...
PEACE UPON EVERYONE

Guten tag! Good day! I would like to answer, "Is it moral for God to punish us?"

Let's make an analogy...
Mankind as a child
God as parents

Every parents love their children. If their children did wrong things or something that would hurt them, their parents would warn and tell them not to do that. Sometimes parents would "punish" their children , so that their children would never do it again.

When parents gave a "punishment" to their children. That doesn't mean that parents do not love their children. It's because they love their children so much, that parents would warn and punish their children for doing bad things. If parents are just ignorant about their children, children would think that it is ok to do bad things and they would eventually do it again. It is immoral for parents to just ignoring their children.

This work same as God. God gave punishments so that mankind would not be astray. Punishments are also a warning for us so that we wouldn't do it again. Sometimes, it is also a test so that we would become a stronger human being.

Finally, we have to understand that there is a wisdom in everything that happens to anyone. We have to remember that Allah does not enjoy punishing anyone. If one is tested with certain trials, he has to stop and check his faith and his relationship with Allah. The test is sometimes meant to cleanse one from the sins committed and a reminder that there is an utmost just God who wants the best for His servants.

In the face of trials, one has to observe patience in order to earn the reward that Allah will give to those who are afflicted with trials. We read in the Quran:

{We shall certainly test you with fear and hunger, and loss of property, lives, and crops. But [Prophet], give good news to those who are steadfast, those who say, when afflicted with a calamity, ‘We belong to God and to Him we shall return.’ These will be given blessings and mercy from their Lord, and it is they who are rightly guided.} (Al-Baqarah 2:155-156)

I hope this helps answer your question.

Your view is not too shabby. Thanks.

But your analogy fails from it's very beginning.

You forget that God intentionally puts Satan in the garden to insure that Adam and Eve eat of the tree of knowledge.

Now from the Jewish perspective, this is quite good but not to the perspective of Christianity and Islam who value submission over knowledge. They want a slave community run on fear instead of one which does good because it is just the right thing to do.

You made an analogy making us as children and God as parent.

Would you as a parent, put someone beside your child, that they could not resist, to insure they did evil?

Would you then punish them far falling into the trap you set?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

not buying it.
far too many 'minds' of separate perspective.

we were made to be unique.

Indeed. Fractals with flaws you might say, but those flaws are what evolves us to a greater fitness.

That is why we need to bury the old Gods and let those dead Gods bury their own.

Our theologies and philosophies must be allowed to evolve. To retard man's development by idol worshiping the old dead Gods is to do an injustice to all of mankind.

Look around at the harm that belief in those god damned Gods are causing to mankind as we speak.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Since the scenario you are outlining obviously makes no sense, why not look for or consider on that does? What would be valid scriptural conditions where God is all knowing and all powerful and yet we have free agency? That might suggest a scenario where history is not set. It might also ask us to think about what it means to be all knowing in terms of causation. May I suggest that knowing the future does not cause the future.

You say it makes no sense yet do not show where the logic trail fails.

Either flesh out an argument or take your worthless stone throwing and go away.

Show how reality can have two time lines.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Yes we are unique, but so is everything else, so if everything is unique, then why even raise the thought. Our minds isn't our true Self, we are all one in Consciousness, our minds are nothing more than collective conditioning and programming. If you were born in another culture and had different parents you wouldn't be who you are today.

Some truth here but badly stated.

An analogy is in order.

Say that your consciousness is a personal computer. A PC.

To have a cosmic consciousness, as you say we are all in, we would have to picture a mainframe computer with all of our P C programs running within it.

We may be able to meld completely with the mainframe programming but we are not completely of it while still able to recognize our own P C program as well as all the other P C programs.

If otherwise, all would meld into the one mainframe program and the personal files would all be lost.

Better to say we are all coherent waves in the ocean that can meld and yet return to the same wave shape we entered the ocean with.

I went to that ocean the one time and returned. If I used your scenario, I could not have returned.

Regards
DL

 

[Pocongsetengahsalmon]

Your view is not too shabby. Thanks.

But your analogy fails from it's very beginning.

You forget that God intentionally puts Satan in the garden to insure that Adam and Eve eat of the tree of knowledge.

Now from the Jewish perspective, this is quite good but not to the perspective of Christianity and Islam who value submission over knowledge. They want a slave community run on fear instead of one which does good because it is just the right thing to do.

You made an analogy making us as children and God as parent.

Would you as a parent, put someone beside your child, that they could not resist, to insure they did evil?

Would you then punish them far falling into the trap you set?

Regards
DL

Praise be to Allah.



Punishments are what happen to people in return for their evil deeds. Trials are tests which are sent to try people, and people may be tested by good things or by bad.

Concerning punishments, Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself…”

[al-Nisa 4:79]

Concerning the phrase “is from yourself”, Qatadah said: “[It means] the punishment is for you, O son of Adam, because of your sin.” Abu Salih said that “whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself” means “because of your sin, and I [Allah] am the One Who decreed it for you.”(Tafseer Ibn Katheer).

Allah also says (interpretation of the meaning): “And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what your hands have earned. And He pardons much.”

[al-Shoora 42:30]

Ibn Katheer, may Allah have mercy on him, said: “[It means] whatever misfortune happens to you, O people, is because of evil deeds that you have already done, and ‘He pardons much’ refers to evil deeds – He does not punish you for them but He pardons them. ‘And if Allah were to punish men for that which they earned, he would not leave a moving (living) creature on the surface of the earth…’ [Fatir 35:45 – interpretation of the meaning].”

Concerning trials, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “If Allah loves a people, He tries them, and whoever has patience will have patience, and whoever is anxious will be anxious.” (Reported by al-Imam Ahmad; Saheeh al-Jami’, 1706).

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also said: “The extent of the reward will be in accordance with the extent of the trial. If Allah loves a people, He tries them, and whoever is content will have contentment, and whoever is angry will have anger.” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 2320; Saheeh al-Jami’, 2210).

The following outlines how one may tell whether a given event is a punishment or a trial:

If the misfortune results from doing an act of obedience to Allah, such as being wounded in jihad, or losing money when migrating for the sake of Allah, or losing a job because of becoming a Muslim or increasing one’s commitment to Islam, then this is a trial. Whoever bears it with patience will be rewarded, but if one reacts angrily then one will earn the wrath of Allah. If the misfortune results from sin, such as sexually-transmitted diseases or illnesses caused by drinking alcohol and taking drugs, and so on, then this is the kind of punishment that comes in this world (as opposed to being deferred until the Hereafter). If the misfortune is connected neither to a good deed nor a sin – such as other kinds of diseases and sicknesses, losing a child, or failing in business – then it depends on the person’s situation. If he is good and devout, it is a trial, and if he is sinful, it is a punishment.

The misfortune may be a punishment to atone for sins, or it may be a trial aimed at raising a person’s status and increasing his hasanat (good deeds/rewards) – this may be determined by whether a person is obedient or disobedient. A person should not praise himself, rather he should criticize himself for his shortcomings and strive to attain perfection. He will benefit from misfortunes in any case, if he has patience and hopes for reward.

And Allah knows best.

 

[Augustus]

Surely I cannot work it out and I see that you dis not offer anything either.

You like knowledge yet would discard it because only those without it can be saved.

So you would suggest that none of us give our children any knowledge.

And you do not see that as evil and ignorant.

You show clearly how your religion has corrupted your moral sense.

Regards
DL

Yes, the evangelical religion of 'none' strikes again in its relentless quest for world domination.

What's it with all these forced conversions here? I've lost count of the number of times I've been told about 'my religion' and how it affects my judgement...

My point is that no amount of knowledge is going to change human nature. We are prone to violence, and must accept we always will be.

There is no theology of gradual improvement as we stride towards perfection, we remain the same flawed creatures that we always have been.

Such a fanciful notion that we can be saved from our nature. The most 'advanced' societies still hold that mankind can be redeemed through violence, and evil can be chased from this world.

That's what created the situation in the Middle East after all.

 

[Greatest I am]

Yes, the evangelical religion of 'none' strikes again in its relentless quest for world domination.

What's it with all these forced conversions here? I've lost count of the number of times I've been told about 'my religion' and how it affects my judgement...

My point is that no amount of knowledge is going to change human nature. We are prone to violence, and must accept we always will be.

There is no theology of gradual improvement as we stride towards perfection, we remain the same flawed creatures that we always have been.

Such a fanciful notion that we can be saved from our nature. The most 'advanced' societies still hold that mankind can be redeemed through violence, and evil can be chased from this world.

That's what created the situation in the Middle East after all.

"The most 'advanced' societies still hold that mankind can be redeemed through violence, and evil can be chased from this world."

Garbage. Seems we have nothing to discuss or share as common ground.

Regards
DL