What do you think about my post above about 1 Cor not saying "speak same" but says "speak HE"? Do you understand the question?
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Is it possible for believers to believe the Bible has mistakes in it?
- Thread starter savagewind
- Start date
How does the faithful and discreet slave know for sure 1 Cor 1:10 says speak the same as they do and NOT speak Jesus? Do you know what to speak Jesus means?
It puts religious leaders at an advantage translating it "speak the same". If it was translated "speak Jesus in everything" it would certainly put Jesus at an advantage over the princes whom God says "do NOT trust them for your salvation". Can You trust Jesus for your salvation? It is what 1 Cor 1:10 means.
Are you going to address this problem? No? Why not?
I shall put it on my list of questions going unanswered by JWs.
It puts religious leaders at an advantage translating it "speak the same". If it was translated "speak Jesus in everything" it would certainly put Jesus at an advantage over the princes whom God says "do NOT trust them for your salvation". Can You trust Jesus for your salvation? It is what 1 Cor 1:10 means.
Are you going to address this problem? No? Why not?
I shall put it on my list of questions going unanswered by JWs.
Do I have scriptural proof for my unconventional interpretation of 1 Cor. 1:10? Yes I do. You do too. But you have no proof it says speak the same. I am sure.
1 Cor 2:16 Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
Having the mind of Christ means we are able to speak HE. Or him which makes more sense in English.
If my mind is Christ WHAT will I speak? Will I speak the same as men? Or will I speak what Christ would speak?
The writer of 1 Cor 1:10 is about speaking the mind of Christ.
Your turn. Prove it means to speak the same as the governing body of JWs.
1 Cor 2:16 Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
Having the mind of Christ means we are able to speak HE. Or him which makes more sense in English.
If my mind is Christ WHAT will I speak? Will I speak the same as men? Or will I speak what Christ would speak?
The writer of 1 Cor 1:10 is about speaking the mind of Christ.
Your turn. Prove it means to speak the same as the governing body of JWs.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I personally believe in the overall testimony of the Scriptures. I do not believe that it is infallible nor do I believe in Paul's writings. Ironically, it is Paul's writings alone that create the logic of "infallibility". It is rooted in Paul's premise of predestination (Romans 9). Paul argues that God is outside of time and has foreordained good and evil. Paul even goes so far as to say that God hates some individuals before they are born!!
This means that everything that happens on planet earth is all part of God's intricate plan which He is micro managing down to the very last detail. This then means that the 67 books (for protestants) that were "divinely chosen" MUST have been done by the sovereign will of God. None of it can be wrong because that would God out to be wrong.
This logic has no premise in the Hebrew scriptures or the words of Jesus.
I did not know that about Paul.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I would be more than happy to discuss it further if you want. Basically, any honest reading of Romans 9 will confirm my assertion.
The Hebrew Scriptures present God in a different fashion. He is not outside of time like in Christian logic. God clearly indicates that He does NOT know what humans are going to do. Nor does he pre ordain mans fate.
I believe God does not preordain the fate of humankind. But I reason that if God dwells within time then time is greater than God. It is not possible for anyone or anything to be greater than The God I know.
Scripture indicates God DOES know what people will do. Even people know what people will do. I am thinking of one scripture which says YHVH knows what you will speak even before you speak it.
Scripture indicates God DOES know what people will do. Even people know what people will do. I am thinking of one scripture which says YHVH knows what you will speak even before you speak it.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I would love to hear it.
Please understand that I am not suggesting that time is greater than God. I simply see time as being a part of God in some way. I also believe that God has plans and intentions for humanity. But many times these plans don't come to pass. I also believe that when God states something thats going to happen in the future, it has nothing to do with the concept of God seeing it outside of time. I believe prophecy is when God tells us what He is going to do in the future. Not because He has already seen it outside of time, but because He is great enough to make His word come to pass.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Here is a short list that my friend Scott Nelson collected which suggest that God does not know what is going to happen in detail:
"There are many passages in the Bible that indicate God does not necessarily know what man will do. The following are just a few of them. This picture of a creator who chooses tonot know what his creature will do shows up right at the beginning of the Bible in the creation account itself .
"Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them." Genesis 2:19
If God is all-knowing of what man will do, why was He so inquisitive of what Adam would do?
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lordregretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth,... for I regret that I have made them." Genesis 6:5-7
How can a wise God do something that He knows He will regret in the future? This passage clearly implies that, had God known when He created man that he would become as evil as he did, He would not have created him! Thus, He did not know. God knew it was a possibility that man could turn toward ultimate evil. That is part of the risk He took in relinquishing control and giving man a free will. But that is not the same as knowing man would become as evil as he did. God had higher hopes for His creation.
But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. And the Lord said, "Indeed, the people are one and they all have one language..." Genesis 11:5,6
Gathering information again! And obviously, it was information He didn't completely possess before.
And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know." Genesis 18:20,21
It sounds like He didn't know for sure and was going on a fact-finding mission again!
But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Genesis 22:11,12
Again, "now I know", as though He wasn't completely sure before.
Now the word of the Lord came to Samuel, saying, "I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments." 1Samuel 15:11
How can an intelligent God do something He knew He would wish He hadn't done?
"And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." Jeremiah 32:35 (see also Jeremiah 7:31 and 19:5)
God said Himself that it never came into His mind!!
These are just a few of the highlights. There seems to be no end to the scriptural references that suggest man did something that was unexpected by God. Just the fact that it says God became angry with men on numerous occasions, suggests that something different was expected from them. If this were not the case, then God's display of anger was merely theatrics on His part... a lie. How can God be justifiably angry with someone for doing what He expected them not to do, while at the same time He expected them to do it because He knew they would? The picture of an all-knowing God just doesn't stand to any plausible line of logic. God has taken a great risk in creating a being with a free will. The question is why? C. S. Lewis rightly put the answer this way;
"Why then did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having, A world of automata--of creatures that worked like machines--would hardly be worth creating."
(C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity p.49.)
The longing of God's heart for those who would love Him, and would demonstrate that love by obeying Him, is the very purpose God made man in the first place. Listen to His heart yearning in this passage.
"Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever! Deut. 5:29
As mentioned in the previous chapter, the purpose behind His creation is to bring into existence a worthy bride for His Son. The Son has paid for her and is soon coming to collect. God's endeavor to bring into existence a worthy bride was fraught with risk from the start, yet it was a risk He originally deemed worth taking. It is deeply saddening to know that there have been times in human history where God actually regretted having started it at all."
The Attributes of Deity
"There are many passages in the Bible that indicate God does not necessarily know what man will do. The following are just a few of them. This picture of a creator who chooses tonot know what his creature will do shows up right at the beginning of the Bible in the creation account itself .
"Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them." Genesis 2:19
If God is all-knowing of what man will do, why was He so inquisitive of what Adam would do?
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lordregretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth,... for I regret that I have made them." Genesis 6:5-7
How can a wise God do something that He knows He will regret in the future? This passage clearly implies that, had God known when He created man that he would become as evil as he did, He would not have created him! Thus, He did not know. God knew it was a possibility that man could turn toward ultimate evil. That is part of the risk He took in relinquishing control and giving man a free will. But that is not the same as knowing man would become as evil as he did. God had higher hopes for His creation.
But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. And the Lord said, "Indeed, the people are one and they all have one language..." Genesis 11:5,6
Gathering information again! And obviously, it was information He didn't completely possess before.
And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know." Genesis 18:20,21
It sounds like He didn't know for sure and was going on a fact-finding mission again!
But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Genesis 22:11,12
Again, "now I know", as though He wasn't completely sure before.
Now the word of the Lord came to Samuel, saying, "I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments." 1Samuel 15:11
How can an intelligent God do something He knew He would wish He hadn't done?
"And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." Jeremiah 32:35 (see also Jeremiah 7:31 and 19:5)
God said Himself that it never came into His mind!!
These are just a few of the highlights. There seems to be no end to the scriptural references that suggest man did something that was unexpected by God. Just the fact that it says God became angry with men on numerous occasions, suggests that something different was expected from them. If this were not the case, then God's display of anger was merely theatrics on His part... a lie. How can God be justifiably angry with someone for doing what He expected them not to do, while at the same time He expected them to do it because He knew they would? The picture of an all-knowing God just doesn't stand to any plausible line of logic. God has taken a great risk in creating a being with a free will. The question is why? C. S. Lewis rightly put the answer this way;
"Why then did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having, A world of automata--of creatures that worked like machines--would hardly be worth creating."
(C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity p.49.)
The longing of God's heart for those who would love Him, and would demonstrate that love by obeying Him, is the very purpose God made man in the first place. Listen to His heart yearning in this passage.
"Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever! Deut. 5:29
As mentioned in the previous chapter, the purpose behind His creation is to bring into existence a worthy bride for His Son. The Son has paid for her and is soon coming to collect. God's endeavor to bring into existence a worthy bride was fraught with risk from the start, yet it was a risk He originally deemed worth taking. It is deeply saddening to know that there have been times in human history where God actually regretted having started it at all."
The Attributes of Deity
This? Psalm 139:4 King James Bible
For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
The teachings of Jesus do not change.
Putting trust in human leaders not being lead by Jesus that is obviously what is being spoken.
Please read your sentence again to see if you can make sense of it. Oh! After four readings I get it! You mean Psalm 146:3 means do not put trust in human leaders not being led by Jesus. OK We are talking about the meaning of 1 Cor 1:10. That is how I got confused.
Where do you find the trust that they ARE being led by Jesus? (2 Cor 11:14)
I have some scriptures to consider holding the question in mind "where does knowing someone else is being led by Christ come from?".
2 Cor 11:13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.
Matthew 25:44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
Rev 9:11 They have a king over them, the angel of the abyss
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Matthew 7:15
15 “Be on the watch for the false prophetswho come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.
2 John 1:10
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.
Titus 3:10
10 As for a man who promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition,
2 Peter 2:1
2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.
Romans 16:17, 18
17 Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.18 For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattering speech they seduce the hearts of unsuspecting ones.
Galatians 1:7, 8
7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ.8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed.
John 8:44
44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father.That one was a murderer when he began,and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
The fact that Jehovah's Witnesses have accepted a type of king over them (the Watchtower corporation) has voided out the words of Jeremiah "The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.Who can know it?" The question "who can know it" implies that it can't be known. BUT Jehovah's Witnesses know men's hearts.
The question is HOW?
The Bible says by their fruits you will know bad men. Where does it say God will reveal the hearts of GOOD men?
2 Cor 11:13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.
Matthew 25:44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
Rev 9:11 They have a king over them, the angel of the abyss
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Matthew 7:15
15 “Be on the watch for the false prophetswho come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.
2 John 1:10
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.
Titus 3:10
10 As for a man who promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition,
2 Peter 2:1
2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.
Romans 16:17, 18
17 Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.18 For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattering speech they seduce the hearts of unsuspecting ones.
Galatians 1:7, 8
7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ.8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed.
John 8:44
44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father.That one was a murderer when he began,and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.
The fact that Jehovah's Witnesses have accepted a type of king over them (the Watchtower corporation) has voided out the words of Jeremiah "The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.Who can know it?" The question "who can know it" implies that it can't be known. BUT Jehovah's Witnesses know men's hearts.
The question is HOW?
The Bible says by their fruits you will know bad men. Where does it say God will reveal the hearts of GOOD men?
I will tell you. You believe them because they satisfy a longing that is in you. Where is the feeling of longing* in a person?
I think it is in the belly. That is where appetite comes from.
18 For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattering speech they seduce the hearts of unsuspecting ones.
*craving, eager, languishing, pining, yearning, anxious, hungry, ravenous, wishful....
I think it is in the belly. That is where appetite comes from.
18 For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattering speech they seduce the hearts of unsuspecting ones.
*craving, eager, languishing, pining, yearning, anxious, hungry, ravenous, wishful....
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
It seems apparent to me that the verse you quoted is speaking of God's ability to intimately study and know His creation.
1O LORD, You have searched me (past tense) and known me.
2You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar
3You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all. (He has studied us and knows what we will do at times)
5You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
Let me know if you disagree with my take.
1O LORD, You have searched me (past tense) and known me.
2You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar
3You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all. (He has studied us and knows what we will do at times)
5You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
Let me know if you disagree with my take.
Yes. That is it. I think you are right. There is no way to determine if prophesy means a seeing of the future or the making of it. I shall go with you thinking it means God will make it real.
I have said before that God can't prophesy a bad thing about a person or group of persons because then it must come true and would mean God IS partial. I think prophesy about bad things happening just means a warning and the knowledge that going the bad way will surely end up bad.
I have said before that God can't prophesy a bad thing about a person or group of persons because then it must come true and would mean God IS partial. I think prophesy about bad things happening just means a warning and the knowledge that going the bad way will surely end up bad.
To be trusting any person to lead you in the path of righteousness is to absolve them of any wrong doing. Even Jesus did not absolve himself saying "no one is good but God alone".
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone." Mark 10:18
As far as I know God wrote nothing alone except maybe the Ten Commandmensts on stone.
Everything else was written by people who Jesus calls "not good". Haha. Well he didn't really say not good but if God alone is good then what?
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone." Mark 10:18
As far as I know God wrote nothing alone except maybe the Ten Commandmensts on stone.
Everything else was written by people who Jesus calls "not good". Haha. Well he didn't really say not good but if God alone is good then what?
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Is it possible for believers to believe the Bible has mistakes in it?
It is possible for believers in God to see that the bible has mistakes in it.
It is not possible for the believers in the bible to ADMIT that there are mistakes in it.
Believing in something must be based on proof and verification. It must not be a blind faith.
It is possible for believers in God to see that the bible has mistakes in it.
It is not possible for the believers in the bible to ADMIT that there are mistakes in it.
Believing in something must be based on proof and verification. It must not be a blind faith.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I agree with you in theory. I also believe there are exceptions to this rule at times. Would love to discuss those verses with you sometime.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
One must learn every teaching from Jesus and apply every teaching from Jesus then they see clearly the true path.
That is why at Jesus' baptism, Jehovah spoke from heaven and gave all the key on a silver platter---This is my son the beloved, in whom I am well pleased---LISTEN TO HIM.