Is it wrong to advocate homosexuality as a sin?

[Mr Cheese]

As if the gays don't already know that homosexuality is considered a sin in the bible. .

The ironic thing is, this is actually untrue, as has been demonstrated elsewhere in this forum.

In poor translation, yes, homosexuality is a sin...

If we actually examine the bible through scholarly eyes we can see that homosexuality as a sin is not really clearly mentioned. Nowhere does Jesus say "Thou shalt not mince" or Moses commanded "Thou shalt not pluck your eye brows before having intercourse with a man" etc.....

What the bible does say are allusions to sexual practises of the day, which involved temple prostitution and other such things, which is to do with a sacred act..the closest in modern terms would be Tantric sex, although this is a grossly innacurate comparison, thrown in to illustrate more than actually quantify or conceptualize.

Some scholars argue, although homosexuality (lesbianism is clearly not mentioned, it seems God hates penises?) is not CLEARLY mentioned, there is a prevailing idea that the bible advocates NOT SLEEPING AROUND. This is a very different idea to not rubbing man boobs with another pair of man boobs.....

Very much of the Judaic sexual norms were codified and "born" within the dark ages, around the time of the Zohar( 13th cent)...when Judaism was reacting to mystical christianity (which decided sex was bad, the body was naughty and we all needed to wear sacks and beat ourselves with a stick until we bled) and influenced by mystical Islam or Sufism.

So when ignorant bigots proclaim that the bible says penises going elsewhere besides a woman's hoo hoo is naughty waughty woo; remember they are wrong and that David loved Johnathon above all women..... and we all know how much God loved David...

 

[Kerr]

Trust me, I agree with you. I see nothing wrong with homosexuality and I come from a strict religious background!

Which was why I said the argument was not against you, but against the example you thought of as a response to that question . Didn´t think you disagreed with it .

 

[Autodidact]

Nothing wrong with advocating homosexuality as a sin. Because it is. Where people mess up is stating that you are automatically doomed or that you are a lesser class of person because of homosexuality which simply is not true. Homosexuality is sinful just the same as vanity or gluttony, which most Americans are guilty of one way or the other. The day people learn to accept the fact that it is sin and not a unforgivable sin will be a good day for all.

First of all, apparently you believe it's a sin in your odd belief-system. That's not an objective fact, it's a religious taboo and nothing more. Secondly, the only people you should be advocating this view to are people who share your odd belief-system, that is, your fellow conservative Christians. It is entirely irrelevant to the rest of us, as irrelevant as the suggestion from Orthodox Jews that eating pork is a sin. It is, for them, but that has nothing to do with you. Third, as I have pointed out dozens of times at RF, lesbianism is not a sin, even in your personal collection of religious taboos, that is, if they derive from the Bible, which does NOT prohibit it. What it does prohibit, clearly, unequivocally and repeatedly is remarriage after divorce. So if you want to fight sin, how about talking to your fellow conservative Christians about their extremely high rate of divorce and remarriage? That is, before expecting us to conform with your religious taboos, how about if you as a group try to obey them first?

 

[Autodidact]

It is not the religion that teaches people to treat homosexuals differently. It is peoples own fears and ignorance that causes it. Why is it that the 2 of the biggest racist groups in America (skin heads and KKK) not only fear/hate other races but also commit hate crimes against homosexuals? Because of their own fear/hatred of them, which has nothing to do with religion. That is what needs to be addressed not the religion itself. If you want to solve a problem you might want to correctly identify what the problem is. By attacking religion instead of ignorance your attempts to "fix" this problem is wasted and futile.

There's something to what Enoch says here.:clap However, the religious believers themselves (cf ayani, this thread) do say that their view comes from their religion.

 

[Autodidact]

Sunstone: Admittedly.....you have somewhat of a point. But lets take Christianity for instance...If 100% of Christians promoted disrespect and discrimination for homosexuals there would be need of reform for Christianity. But that is not the case. What you are experiencing is the fear/hate of some of the people within the Christian community. By reforming Christianity it would not make that fear go away. It would still be there until you tackle the problem itself. I realize I am in a minority by supporting gay rights as a Christian, but more and more Christians are becoming pro-gay rights everyday, and soon (couple of years I would guess) we will no longer be the minority.

Actually, Enoch, I don't think you're in a minority. (will Google and see what I can find.) I think the other side is just very noisy. I went to research all the gay-friendly churches in my city for an examiner article, and had to give it up because there were too many of them!

 

[sojourner]

Actually, Enoch, I don't think you're in a minority. (will Google and see what I can find.) I think the other side is just very noisy. I went to research all the gay-friendly churches in my city for an examiner article, and had to give it up because there were too many of them!

And there are many more who don't advertise it!:yes:

 

[J Bryson]

Actually, Enoch, I don't think you're in a minority. (will Google and see what I can find.) I think the other side is just very noisy. I went to research all the gay-friendly churches in my city for an examiner article, and had to give it up because there were too many of them!

But we need the publicity!

 

[Autodidact]

But we need the publicity!

Maybe you could picket bigot's funerals with signs that say, "God loves ****"?

 

[sojourner]

Maybe you could picket bigot's funerals with signs that say, "God loves ****"?

:biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:

:highfive:

:takeabow:

SCORE!!!

Sorry! I can't frubal you for that -- but I dearly wish I could!

 

[slave2six]

Originally Posted by Enoch07
Nothing wrong with advocating homosexuality as a sin. Because it is. Where people mess up is stating that you are automatically doomed or that you are a lesser class of person because of homosexuality which simply is not true. Homosexuality is sinful just the same as vanity or gluttony, which most Americans are guilty of one way or the other. The day people learn to accept the fact that it is sin and not a unforgivable sin will be a good day for all.

First of all, apparently you believe it's a sin in your odd belief-system. That's not an objective fact, it's a religious taboo and nothing more.

It may just be a feeling but it seems to me that a lot of people think that the world began when they were born and that anything that happened beforehand is irrelevant. Again, it may just be me.

It strikes me as extremely uninformed to treat Enoch's opinion as merely an "odd belief system." It is precisely the same belief system that has been in effect and dominated Middle-Eastern and European culture for the past 4,000+ years. If anything is odd, its the new morality based on reason. One does not combat deeply entrenched beliefs by trivializing them but rather through reaching the minds of those who are in the trench and demonstrating to them where we differ in the hopes that they will be able to stop being bigoted against gays, people of color, atheists, or whatever group they are hating on.

 

[slave2six]

Maybe you could picket bigot's funerals with signs that say, "God loves ****"?

I'm sure that would be as effective and picketing a KKK Rally with signs that said, "God loves N*****s!" Seems like a waste of effort to me.

 

[slave2six]

SCORE!!!

Hmmmm...

 

[Kerr]

It may just be a feeling but it seems to me that a lot of people think that the world began when they were born and that anything that happened beforehand is irrelevant. Again, it may just be me.

Are you saying the world did not begin when I was born ?!

 

[sojourner]

Hmmmm...

I thought it was hilarious. The Fred Phelps approach certainly backfired...

 

[ellemennop]

I think it's a little bit hypocritical for people to condemn homosexuality on the basis of the Bible while at the same time promoting non-judgement under the guidance of someone called the "Prince of Peace".

My best friend is gay, and Christian-- he feels that he was born homosexual, that it isn't a choice he suddenly made one day.

 

[sojourner]

I think it's a little bit hypocritical for people to condemn homosexuality on the basis of the Bible while at the same time promoting non-judgement under the guidance of someone called the "Prince of Peace".

My best friend is gay, and Christian-- he feels that he was born homosexual, that it isn't a choice he suddenly made one day.

You're being too kind. I think it's abysmal for people to do that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

why should people of faith who are opposed to homosexuality as being a spiritually correct mode of existence and identity have to keep quiet or keep their beliefs behind closed doors?

Because Jesus said so.

It is not the religion that teaches people to treat homosexuals differently. It is peoples own fears and ignorance that causes it. Why is it that the 2 of the biggest racist groups in America (skin heads and KKK) not only fear/hate other races but also commit hate crimes against homosexuals? Because of their own fear/hatred of them, which has nothing to do with religion.

Actually, the KKK is a religious organization. There is even a Bible for White Supremisists.

 

[Kerr]

Actually, the KKK is a religious organization. There is even a Bible for White Supremisists.

Didn´t know that. Out of curiosity, happen to know what makes it different from the ordinary Bible?

 

[Smoke]

It is not the religion that teaches people to treat homosexuals differently. It is peoples own fears and ignorance that causes it. Why is it that the 2 of the biggest racist groups in America (skin heads and KKK) not only fear/hate other races but also commit hate crimes against homosexuals? Because of their own fear/hatred of them, which has nothing to do with religion.

It has everything to do with religion. Racist Christians turn to the Bible to justify their views just as homophobic Christians do. The Klan is an explicitly Christian group, and eighty years ago there were plenty of Protestant clergy in its ranks. Thomas Dixon, the author of The Clansman -- the book on which the infamous movie The Birth of a Nation was based -- was a Baptist minister who wrote novels depicting the supposed evils of "race mixing" and socialism. His brother, A.C. Dixon -- also a Baptist minister -- was the first editor of The Fundamentals. Fundamentalist Christianity is an anti-modern movement, and part of its early anti-modernism was racism.

Within my lifetime, racist and segregationist ministers were still common. Just as the Christian clergy now divide into opposing camps over equality for gay people, forty and fifty years ago they divided into opposing camps over integration. (And 150 years ago, they divided over abolition.) It's sometimes forgotten that Jerry Falwell, long before he was an anti-gay crusader, was an ardent segregationist.

The Klan is not just anti-black and anti-gay. It is also anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic. It is, along with the Christian Identity / militia movement, one of the last remnants of a religious viewpoint that was once common in the United States and that supported its bigotry by referring to the Bible.

 

[Enoch07]

It has everything to do with religion. Racist Christians turn to the Bible to justify their views just as homophobic Christians do. The Klan is an explicitly Christian group, and eighty years ago there were plenty of Protestant clergy in its ranks. Thomas Dixon, the author of The Clansman -- the book on which the infamous movie The Birth of a Nation was based -- was a Baptist minister who wrote novels depicting the supposed evils of "race mixing" and socialism. His brother, A.C. Dixon -- also a Baptist minister -- was the first editor of The Fundamentals. Fundamentalist Christianity is an anti-modern movement, and part of its early anti-modernism was racism.

Within my lifetime, racist and segregationist ministers were still common. Just as the Christian clergy now divide into opposing camps over equality for gay people, forty and fifty years ago they divided into opposing camps over integration. (And 150 years ago, they divided over abolition.) It's sometimes forgotten that Jerry Falwell, long before he was an anti-gay crusader, was an ardent segregationist.

The Klan is not just anti-black and anti-gay. It is also anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic. It is, along with the Christian Identity / militia movement, one of the last remnants of a religious viewpoint that was once common in the United States and that supported its bigotry by referring to the Bible.

What you say may very well be true (I honestly don't know I separate myself from that filth entirely). I live in an area that has a KKK clan still just a few miles north of me. Every Christian I know would tell you we do not associate ourselves with the clan in anyway. I do not consider them Christian at all, even though they may consider themselves that. Just because a group of racist interpret the Bible in a racist way does not make the rest of Christianity racist. Therefore reforming Christianity will do absolutely no good. Because the clan would still be racist and continue its racist actions, until we find a way to stop the clan itself. The past is the past people may have had the same views as the KKK years and years ago. But I assure you the majority of Christians today do not share those same views of racism, and it upsets me that you would insinuate that.

As for the anti-gay crowd, it is the same. Reforming sins in religion would change nothing. They fear because they do not understand. They would find other than religious reasons to keep on fearing/hating until they figure out there is nothing to fear. Our enemy here is fear and ignorance, not religion.