Is the Far Right in America Morally Bankrupt?

[Scuba Pete]

Did you know that the United States just got put on Canada's watch list of countries suspected of committing torture?

Why shouldn't we be? Look at Gitmo! What an atrocity. Look at Iraq: we INVADED a country that had never attacked us. THAT WAS AN UNPROVOKED ATTACK ON A SOVEREIGN NATION. Yet these right wing zealots paint this as somehow being motivated by PATRIOTISM? This is naked aggression and not defensive by any means. Their crime? We don't like their system of government.

 

[Francine]

Their crime? We don't like their system of government.

Their crime? Being a four-letter country starting with "I" that sits on a lot of oil.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Their crime? Being a four-letter country starting with "I" that sits on a lot of oil.

Frubals on your head sistuh! But remember it's patriotic to support Haliburton get more oil and profits! We are sending our kids to die so that a few might get rich and we are doing it ALL in the name of patriotism!

 

[PureX]

Frubals on your head sistuh! But remember it's patriotic to support Haliburton get more oil and profits! We are sending our kids to die so that a few might get rich and we are doing it ALL in the name of patriotism!

And now Haliburton is taking all that money they stole from the american tax-payers during the Iraq invasion (while our soldiers went without armor) and are moving to Dubai. They've already moved their office address to the Bahamas so that they wouldn't have to pay any taxes on their massive profits. And I mean MASSIVE! We're talking hundreds of billions of dollars. Invading Iraq wasn't about oil, it was about Haliburton and Chaney playing Bush like Howdy Doody, and robbing the nation blind.

 

[Reverend Rick]

We already "don't have a country any more".

Francine, your generation knows no sacrifice. You are very intelligent and well read, but if you believe you don't have a country any more, that is extremely sad.

I hope you never have reason to agree with my thoughts. Until you have experienced that every breath you take may be your last, the last food you consumed was days ago, consider sleep a luxuary you cannot afford and death begins to look like the best option so far today, your longing for childhood memories of the 90's really does pale by comparison.

Has it ever occurred to you that nothing has changed, just your realization of what has always existed has.

 

[yossarian22]

Their crime? Being a four-letter country starting with "I" that sits on a lot of oil.

If you think this was about oil you are not thinking very well.
A war requires an enormous expenditure of cash, especially when you rely on a doctrine which emphasizes value on people rather than technology (not that such a doctrine is bad in anyway, its better than the 'throw men at them 'till they run out of bullets' doctrine). That guarantees that the deficit will go skyrocketing barring a large increase in taxes (which would destroy support for the war) You could make money off of that. This is besides the need for infrastructure after we bomb them into dust.

Edit: forgot to answer the OP.

No. Their morals are just vastly different from the norm. (or not, depending on your view. Morality is entirely subjective)

 

[Scuba Pete]

Get out... to Dubai? That must be one PATRIOTIC country to allow them to come over there. I guess it's cheap insurance too! I don't think they have to worry about being invaded when they have Haliburton there to defend them.

 

[PureX]

I am not about to let terrorists destroy everything this country stands for and just lay down and let someone take this country over or even threaten this country with out confronting them with extreme prejudice.

What you are saying is, we should let anyone invade this country and do nothing about it because we are a nation of Christians? We should let criminals rape our women and steal our possessions and murder us in our beds any time they so choose because we are Christians?

What I'm saying is that Christians are being challenged by Christ to respond to these events as Jesus himself would respond. If you don't agree with that, then why call yourself a Christian?

If you don't believe in Jesus' message of turning the other cheek to your enemies, then why call yourself a follower of Jesus? Dr. King followed Jesus' challenge and message, and it worked. Some people were killed, though. And many were beaten up and imprisoned and humiliated. But ultimately Dr. King was doing Christ's work, and the enemy was forced to see themselves for what they really are.

The Romans killed Christians for fun and sport, they were so disdainful of Christ, yet in the end, the whole Roman empire ended up Christian.

Jesus' message has power, and it works in a lot of people's lives. But if you really don't believe in it, ... at all ... , then why pretend to be a Christian?

 

[Scuba Pete]

then why pretend to be a Christian?

Yowzah... the gloves have come off! WHEW!

 

[Reverend Rick]

Purex, I really like you. Christians don't judge as well as they turn the other cheek and they forgive as well. I have done all of these things and have admitted falling short of the Lord. I know I will fall short many more times if the good Lord allows it.

That does not exclude me from being a Christian brother!

Now, will you answer one question for me? Can a Christian be a police officer?

 

[PureX]

Purex, I really like you. Christians don't judge as well as they turn the other cheek and they forgive as well. I have done all of these things and have admitted falling short of the Lord. I know I will fall short many more times if the good Lord allows it.

That does not exclude me from being a Christian brother!

Now, will you answer one question for me? Can a Christian be a police officer?

Anyone can be a Christian. A Roman soldier could be a Christian, but as a Christian, he must be able to acknowledge that what he does as a Roman soldier is wrong, and pray for the strength and courage and wisdom to stop doing those things, someday.

It seems to me that if I were a Christian, and a soldier returning from Viet Nam, and people at the airport spit on and reviled me, I would have to admit that I somewhat deserve it for what I'd done as a soldier. And that I should thank them for not waving flags and patting me on the back for my part in the killing of millions of other human beings. And I would pray to God that he would forgive me for my part in all that death and destruction as well.

But most american Christians don't see themselves this way at all. Instead, they're the ones waving their death flags first, and praising the killing and maiming of millions of human beings the loudest, and shouting that God is on our side of the butchering. They're the exact opposite of humble, and contrite. They revel in the violence and killing and praise it and boast of their part in it. Just as they revel in the idea of how quickly and righteously they'll kill anyone who breaks into their home, or tries to steal something from them, as though their possessions are of course worth more than a thief's life.

I understand that there are times when a nation or a people or an individual must choose to protect themselves or others. But there is NEVER a time when it's right or Christian to praise and revel in such acts of self-defense.

 

[McBell]

Since you seem to have missed it the first time around I shall re-present it:

You want to debate Iraq, start a thread. I will do a one on one with you on Iraq if you like. I am more involved in what is moral and what a Christian is right at the moment. I am not good at multi-tasking sorry.

it is not my intentions to debate Iraq.
Mainly because I suspect we mostly agree on the issue.

I was merely wondering if your thoughts on the issue included the whole country or just you personally or perhaps the immediate community in which you live or what.

And if it did include the whole country, like this current mess with Iraq, how would the USA not declaring war on Iraq cause your family to "suffer"?
Since your family suffering was the reason you gave...



​

If you are merely going to ignore it, please be so kind as to say so.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Since you seem to have missed it the first time around I shall re-present it:

it is not my intentions to debate Iraq.​

Mainly because I suspect we mostly agree on the issue.​

I was merely wondering if your thoughts on the issue included the whole country or just you personally or perhaps the immediate community in which you live or what.​

And if it did include the whole country, like this current mess with Iraq, how would the USA not declaring war on Iraq cause your family to "suffer"?​

Since your family suffering was the reason you gave...​

If you are merely going to ignore it, please be so kind as to say so.

Mestemia, I don't follow this Iraq angle you keep bringing up. Any posts I made yesterday had nothing to do with Iraq. I'm not avoiding the Iraq issue, I just am not commenting on how it ties to the issue of the far right being morally bankrupt.

Yesterday my mind was on the day I came back from Vietnam and how I turned the other cheek when I was spit on and how I forgave these folks who called me a baby killer. Believe me, back then I could have hurt those folks bad with little effort. I was done with my service to my country and was ready to put the war behind me.

It was good to be back home and turning the other cheek was the easiest thing I had done for quite awhile. These overprivileged draft dodging cowards who were taunting me were not worth the sweat off my manhood because I felt I was the one who was morally superior to them because I met my responsibilities to my country and they had not.

It's not easy being an American Patriot. Honor, Valor and Courage are three words they knew nothing about. I believe that was the first day I became a man who let the boys of this world slide. I was happy for them to not know the horrors of war and knew they were the fortunate ones who never had to test the metal they were made of. Some of us where born with the silver spoon in our mouths and did not have to serve in that stupid war. I knew right then and there that if I wanted to prevail in life, I needed to get my butt in college and rise above it all. I'm sorry if my mind was not on your question yesterday. I will try and show your questions a little more respect in the future.

 

[Reverend Rick]

And how exactly would your family "Suffer" if the USA had not gone to war with Iraq?

I found where we got derailed and you first asked your question. Several members eluded that a Christian could not defend themselves and to be a Christian they were required to turn the other cheek. I imagined a scenario where a "true Christian" could not defend his family during say, a home invasion.

I don't believe I introduced the Iraq war into the conversation. The President made that decision and had the support of congress from both sides of the isle. No matter how hard they work to distance themselves from the Iraq war, we never would have been there without their vote on this issue. Just as had the Iraq war found weapons of mass destruction and that we ceased them in the brink of time before Americans would have been harmed, these same politicians would have taken credit for their vote instead of back peddling.

What this has to do with the morals of the far right, you will have to explain to me because I don't understand how this ties into the conversation, unless we all are guilty by association with the Presidents decision to go to Iraq backed by a bipartisan congress at the time.

 

[Francine]

There's no such thing as "morally bankrupt". It's a just a term people throw around to feel better about themselves.

Yes, but this poll is a great way to take a snapshot of the political leanings of this forum, which, it is safe to say, are more on the...left hand of the spectrum.

 

[McBell]

I found where we got derailed and you first asked your question. Several members eluded that a Christian could not defend themselves and to be a Christian they were required to turn the other cheek. I imagined a scenario where a "true Christian" could not defend his family during say, a home invasion.

And I asked how your your family7 would "suffer" if the USA did not declare war on Iraq.
You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

I understand that you are were talking about a personal lvl.
I was specifically asking for a more non-personal lvl.

The example I used is the Iraq war.
I even flat out stated that:

I was merely wondering if your thoughts on the issue included the whole country or just you personally or perhaps the immediate community in which you live or what.
​

But once again you go off into left field and do not answer the question.

I don't believe I introduced the Iraq war into the conversation. The President made that decision and had the support of congress from both sides of the isle. No matter how hard they work to distance themselves from the Iraq war, we never would have been there without their vote on this issue. Just as had the Iraq war found weapons of mass destruction and that we ceased them in the brink of time before Americans would have been harmed, these same politicians would have taken credit for their vote instead of back peddling.

That is nice, but it seems to me that you are back peddling yourself.
Seems to me that I asked a question and then all of a sudden you want to get back to the thread topic instead of continuing with this not so specifically on topic side topic.

If the question bothers you, just say so.
If you do not understand the question, just say so.

What this has to do with the morals of the far right, you will have to explain to me because I don't understand how this ties into the conversation, unless we all are guilty by association with the Presidents decision to go to Iraq backed by a bipartisan congress at the time.

I will not give you your answer.
Meaning that I will not explain how this ties in until you answer the question.
For I strongly suspect that your answer will depend upon how it is tied in.

If you do not know that how, then your answer cannot be influenced.

And no offense, but I strongly suspect that this is the reason why you do not just answer the question.

 

[Reverend Rick]

And I asked how your your family7 would "suffer" if the USA did not declare war on Iraq.
You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

I understand that you are were talking about a personal lvl.
I was specifically asking for a more non-personal lvl.

The example I used is the Iraq war.



I even flat out stated that:

I was merely wondering if your thoughts on the issue included the whole country or just you personally or perhaps the immediate community in which you live or what.​

But once again you go off into left field and do not answer the question.


That is nice, but it seems to me that you are back peddling yourself.
Seems to me that I asked a question and then all of a sudden you want to get back to the thread topic instead of continuing with this not so specifically on topic side topic.

If the question bothers you, just say so.
If you do not understand the question, just say so.


I will not give you your answer.
Meaning that I will not explain how this ties in until you answer the question.
For I strongly suspect that your answer will depend upon how it is tied in.

If you do not know that how, then your answer cannot be influenced.

And no offense, but I strongly suspect that this is the reason why you do not just answer the question.

At least we are on the same page now. You want to talk about the Iraq war and I do not believe it ties to the subject at hand.

I never said that the Iraq war has affected my family. This statement alone is pretty monumental compared to the sacrifices every day American families have had to make in the past. I think of the stories my father has told me about rationing during World war two.

I feel like you are trying to pigeon hole me into a position that I have not claimed to hold.

As long as we can agree that I did not go there in the first place, I will attempt to answer your off topic tangent.

The Iraq war and how it has affected my family:

My family is pretty insulated from real life. They are not affected by many issues that other families face every day. I am the sole provider for my family. They don't worry about foreclosure of our farm because we hold no mortgage on it. The price of gasoline, clothes, or food is not an issue for them because they charge everything to their credit cards that I pay off each month. We live in a green home that is not affected by utility costs. We eat meat and vegetables that we grow ourselves and chemicals in our food is not an issue. My family is not obsessed with politics, but my wife kids me that she is considering voting for Hillary because she knows that is a great way to tug my chain.

My daughters biggest concern is not upsetting me with the amount she spends on clothes or what time she gets home on the weekends. The only affect the Iraq war has on them is they hear about soldiers who are injured or killed. That does not make them happy when they think of the sacrifices that they make every day.

They look at me as the old guy who spends to much time on the computer although they all have their own laptops. They sometimes ask me to go to my bedroom when I watch news shows to much on the family room big screen.

Now the only thing that the Iraq war has done for my family is they are safer because terrorists are content to fight us on their turf and do not follow us home when we pull out of Iraq. When there are no Americans to take their aggressions out on over seas. They could be affected like the 911 victims were. That is a real possibility when my daughter is applying at NYU.

 

[PureX]

I found where we got derailed and you first asked your question. Several members eluded that a Christian could not defend themselves and to be a Christian they were required to turn the other cheek. I imagined a scenario where a "true Christian" could not defend his family during say, a home invasion.

I don't believe I introduced the Iraq war into the conversation. The President made that decision and had the support of congress from both sides of the isle. No matter how hard they work to distance themselves from the Iraq war, we never would have been there without their vote on this issue. Just as had the Iraq war found weapons of mass destruction and that we ceased them in the brink of time before Americans would have been harmed, these same politicians would have taken credit for their vote instead of back peddling.

What this has to do with the morals of the far right, you will have to explain to me because I don't understand how this ties into the conversation, unless we all are guilty by association with the Presidents decision to go to Iraq backed by a bipartisan congress at the time.

You're skipping over the part where the Bush administration did everything they could to promote the illusion that Iraq was a deadly threat, while continually and purposely ignoring any and all evidence to the contrary. They WANTED that war in the worst way, and they lied through their teeth to the american people, and to their fellow politicians, over and over and over, and they are STILL lying about it, to justify what they've done.

Yes, the democrats did vote to support this invasion, but they did so thinking that the information the Bush administration was giving them was true. I agree that they SHOULD have checked the information out for themselves, and had they done so, they might have stopped this fiasco before it began. The few lawmakers who did actually check out the evidence were the same few who actually voted against it. So most of those other democrats are guilty of negligence, but it was the republicans that were outright lying so as to invade another nation, and kill and maim millions of it's citizens. So don't go trying to paint both sides as equally guilty, because they aren't even CLOSE to being equally guilty. They are both guilty, but certainly to an any equal degree.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Poetic license?

Seriously we are still in Iraq because it is the staging ground for the Iran war.

Care to comment on the terrorists following us home Purex?

 

[Francine]

Care to comment on the terrorists following us home Purex?

How can they follow our troops home if we never let our troops come home?