Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?

[gnostic]

So after 22 pages, has anyone been successfully converted by this evidence to truth?

I found no "evidence", let alone the "truth".

There are lot of argument over the translations of "words" to specific verses.

We have "vastness", "spread", "extend", "expand" being used in various translations. But that's not the only problem.

But you really have to see the context of these verses. And it is not just the context in how you read it, but also it relates to time. Word, meaning of the word or context, changes over time. You have to read the Qur'an within the context, during the time of Muhammad, and not with the modern context or modern usage, which is the mistakes many Muslims do, like for this thread, Rational Mind and LoverOfTruth.

And to me, 51:47, the word "heaven" is dubious and vague at best.

Originally the word "heaven" simply means the "sky" or "firmament", because that's what "firmament" or "sky" means - the dome of heaven.

But in modern time (and modern context), the word have be used for "universe" or "space". I think it is mistake to attach modern meaning and concept to ancient texts.

And this is why I think people like Zakir Naik is utterly stupid for attaching the Qur'an to modern science, like the Big Bang cosmology, astronomy, biology, geology or Earth science, and other fields of science. Doing so, only make the claimers look like a bunch of fools.

 

[JacobEzra.]

And this is why I think people like Zakir Naik is utterly stupid

I think its utterly foolish to think you have 100% truth.

And to think wars are fought over religious truths

 

[Agnostic75]

If you are not willing to accept statements from scientists who belong to the Abrahamic Faith,.......if I give you a source who is Hindu, you'll say bring me a Buddhist and so on.

Any scientists other than those who belong to the Abrahamic Faith will be fine. Is there some particular reason why you chose scientists who belong to the Abrahamic Faith?

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Rational_Mind;2844948]Unfortunately some people rely on a hadith that was recorded some 270 or so years based on oral tradition. And there are other that clearly narrate similarly saying that Allah causes others to forget. If this hadith was accurate then Hazrat Aisha being so close to Muhammad (saw) and learning under him would have questioned that how this came to be as the Quran says that his memory would be perfect when it came to revelation. It is well known by so many other hadith and the fact that he lead prayers and recited these surahs that his memory was perfect when it came to the Quran. I hope you will not stand on oral narration collected after some 270 or so years.

So are hadith not worth anything, then why do Muslims quote from it.

This means to say that Allah will not let his memory falter when it comes to the Qu'ran, as this is his will. But as to other cases where the importance is not as relevant his memory will be able to falter as Allah wills.

The more reason the Hadiths are not accurate, as they contradict the Koran.

Please read into the entire incident where many people who had memorized the Quran were killed and what happened. I don't think you are well aware of numbers. And you have forgotten all the other safe-guards I mentioned. Additionally, Muhammad (saw) would review the Quran as revealed to Angel Gabriel. It would not be something of importance for those who do not believe in Angels, none the less it is to show that there was special importance taken for a book to be preserved for all time. The other texts were never given such safe-guards by God as he never willed them to exist for ever. They were steps in progress into the final law for mankind that came through the Quran. There is no region to whom a messenger with law was not sent, according to the Quran. We believe such law was the best for that time, until it was abrogated in stages, and when Islam came it was the final law to bring mankind onto one till the day of judgement.

As i said earlier Allah is somehow vulnerable to corruption.If He failed before thrice in preserving his message, there is NO REASON to trust Him when he says that the fourth time he won’t fail !

And my question still stands.

Why is the perfect book of God not perfectly organized?

 

[gnostic]

I think its utterly foolish to think you have 100% truth.

I am not the one who tried to connect ancient scriptures with vague references or verses with modern science. Because such texts and verses can be interpret in any number of ways.

Do you like it when non-Jewish people applied either Christian interpretations or Muslim interpretations to the Torah or the Tanakh? Do you think their interpretations to your scriptures to be 100%?

No (to both questions)?

I didn't think so.

Nor do I think religious people or theists should mix religion with science.

And I rather not rely on the "truth", because so many different people have different definition of the truth. Religious truth have different meanings to different religions. And religious truth is again different to law or to science, which both required evidences, and religious truth just required faith. With religion, and I mean any religion, nothing is 100% certain.

I'd prefer to deal with knowledge that have been thoroughly and rigorously tested and verified - with evidences. But even in science, there is never 100% certainty, and that's why any subject needed to be tested repeatedly. And when testing, precision is just as important as accuracy (and sometimes more important) in science, as well as allowing for margin of error, for any readings or measurements. With science, nothing is perfect.

 

[Rational_Mind]

So are hadith not worth anything, then why do Muslims quote from it.



The more reason the Hadiths are not accurate, as they contradict the Koran.



As i said earlier Allah is somehow vulnerable to corruption.If He failed before thrice in preserving his message, there is NO REASON to trust Him when he says that the fourth time he won’t fail !

And my question still stands.

Why is the perfect book of God not perfectly organized?

Regarding your statement on Allah being vulnerable to corruption you need to read more on the issue before you comment. Read on how the Holy Quran was complied: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf

The Quran is perfectly organized. The order of the Quran was revealed along with each verse, the topics are complete and flow from one chapter to the next. Regarding Hadith it is not as simple as you take it to be. I would ask you to read up on it more before you ask more questions. Hadith which contradict are not valued because the Quran is promised to be preserved and the Hadith was never promised to be preserved by Allah. Whichever Hadith is in line with the Quran and is held of value.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Rational_Mind;2851179]Regarding your statement on Allah being vulnerable to corruption you need to read more on the issue before you comment. Read on how the Holy Quran was complied: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf

Thaks for the link, still does not answer my question, how can you trust the Koran to be perfect when Allah made mistakes in the other revealed scriptures? and thats without using the Koran as evidence as the Koran is the one in question.

The Quran is perfectly organized. The order of the Quran was revealed along with each verse, the topics are complete and flow from one chapter to the next. Regarding Hadith it is not as simple as you take it to be. I would ask you to read up on it more before you ask more questions. Hadith which contradict are not valued because the Quran is promised to be preserved and the Hadith was never promised to be preserved by Allah. Whichever Hadith is in line with the Quran and is held of value.

The Koran is not structured into chapters in any way, The First Revelation of the god of Koran appears in the 96 Sura (chapter), how perfect would you call a God that declares today that ”today I have perfected your religion for you”(Koran 5:3) but still continues with his revelations tommorow ?
If the God of Koran is an incremental revealer, why should one believe that he perfected his religion in the 7th century arabia?

 

[JacobEzra.]

I am not the one who tried to connect ancient scriptures with vague references or verses with modern science. Because such texts and verses can be interpret in any number of ways.

Do you like it when non-Jewish people applied either Christian interpretations or Muslim interpretations to the Torah or the Tanakh? Do you think their interpretations to your scriptures to be 100%?

No (to both questions)?

I didn't think so.

Nor do I think religious people or theists should mix religion with science.

And I rather not rely on the "truth", because so many different people have different definition of the truth. Religious truth have different meanings to different religions. And religious truth is again different to law or to science, which both required evidences, and religious truth just required faith. With religion, and I mean any religion, nothing is 100% certain.

I'd prefer to deal with knowledge that have been thoroughly and rigorously tested and verified - with evidences. But even in science, there is never 100% certainty, and that's why any subject needed to be tested repeatedly. And when testing, precision is just as important as accuracy (and sometimes more important) in science, as well as allowing for margin of error, for any readings or measurements. With science, nothing is perfect.

So where is it that we disagree, and you felt the need to rant on me?

 

[Rational_Mind]

I found no "evidence", let alone the "truth".

There are lot of argument over the translations of "words" to specific verses.

We have "vastness", "spread", "extend", "expand" being used in various translations. But that's not the only problem.

But you really have to see the context of these verses. And it is not just the context in how you read it, but also it relates to time. Word, meaning of the word or context, changes over time. You have to read the Qur'an within the context, during the time of Muhammad, and not with the modern context or modern usage, which is the mistakes many Muslims do, like for this thread, Rational Mind and LoverOfTruth.

And to me, 51:47, the word "heaven" is dubious and vague at best.

Originally the word "heaven" simply means the "sky" or "firmament", because that's what "firmament" or "sky" means - the dome of heaven.

But in modern time (and modern context), the word have be used for "universe" or "space". I think it is mistake to attach modern meaning and concept to ancient texts.

And this is why I think people like Zakir Naik is utterly stupid for attaching the Qur'an to modern science, like the Big Bang cosmology, astronomy, biology, geology or Earth science, and other fields of science. Doing so, only make the claimers look like a bunch of fools.

You have misunderstood somethings.

There are two different words for heaven as in afterlife and heaven as in something above you. I have really simplified it though. Moreover the it would be in the obvious nature of something giving knowledge for the future to appear vague. Let us take for example someone trying to explain future transport system back then to you. Moreover what would be the reward for someone who believes after God forces him. It is for this reason that the person must first strive to the point of believing that there must be a God. The next step is where God brings you to the point where you believe there is a god. Getting to believe that there must be a God is preliminary step that one must take after which they must evaluate which religion is right.

Also spread has not been used for the verse most under discussion but for the verse preceding it that many people confused because of difference in numbering. I have still to see someone show me that the arabic word never held the meaning of expand in the past.

Also there are verses of the Quran that hold an independent interpretation from outside of context but they cannot be interpreted such to contradict with the Quran. The verses that are interpreted out of context are sometimes incorrect because they contradict with other verses that are not susceptible to different interpretations. Also it is incorrect to hold out of context a verse that is not susceptible to different interpetations just as with any other text. Then there is the case of the verse that is speaking of a specific incident then context again is important. This is not layman knowledge so I would not expect most average people to know or understand. Anyone wanting to know more will have to invest some time into it. This is very briefly explained here.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Thaks for the link, still does not answer my question, how can you trust the Koran to be perfect when Allah made mistakes in the other revealed scriptures? and thats without using the Koran as evidence as the Koran is the one in question.



The Koran is not structured into chapters in any way, The First Revelation of the god of Koran appears in the 96 Sura (chapter), how perfect would you call a God that declares today that ”today I have perfected your religion for you”(Koran 5:3) but still continues with his revelations tommorow ?
If the God of Koran is an incremental revealer, why should one believe that he perfected his religion in the 7th century arabia?

Please to assume other peoples views before you comment on them. Like I told you before, spend more time understanding something before asking questions.

 

[fishy]

Hey Rational, how come all of the thousands of people who memorised the Qu'ran back in the days of Muhammad, didn't memorise 2 verses, the same 2 verses were unknown to all but ONE person. It is therefore not unreasonable to conclude that there are verses that have been ommitted, isn't that so? Or conversely those 2 verses were never part of the original. Do those who memorise the Qu'ran now include those 2 verses?

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Please to assume other peoples views before you comment on them. Like I told you before, spend more time understanding something before asking questions.

Please dont think im being ignorant, ive read about the Koran and Hadiths from Islamics and non Islamics, to me Islam has too many unanswered questions and not to mention the contradictions. There is no one answer to anything, every Islamic sect has their own interpretations. The burden of Proof is on Muslims as Muslims believe that non believers will be in hell, so questions are expected to be answered from non believers side, but we are not expected to believe in any answer blindly.

You keep advising to spend more time understanding Islam, i have tried for years, its too Violent, Too male orientated, too strict on minor things, and there is unreasonable worship such as Kaba and saying Muhammads name the Kalma (la ila ill Allah, muhammad rasul allah), and there is Muhammad who is such a violent person and to expect Allah to give him the word is a question of Allahs intentions, the belief in hell, heaven and Kafirs, death for apostates, no freedom of belief, no freedom to question, no freedom of dress or look or individuality, no freedom of artistic expression, no freedom at all, belief in angels, jinns, flying donkey of Muhammad and not to mention the forceful conversions of people through out history of Islam.

So if someone wants to know the truth of Islam, the entire truth is expected.

These things don't paint a good picture of Islam.

 

[gnostic]

So where is it that we disagree, and you felt the need to rant on me?

Sorry, JacobEzra. For both misunderstanding you, and for ranting.

I have a quirk, where I read some things, I have the tendency to read it literally.

Like what you wrote here:

I think its utterly foolish to think you have 100% truth.

When I read "you" I take it to mean - "me".

I always have problem interpreting what people say, so apparently it is misfire on my part. I am never good where phrases or sentences may have more than one meanings, or with allegory or with sarcasms. As an example, I sometimes take what supposed to be sarcasm as something literal, not realising it until it is too late.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Sorry, JacobEzra. For both misunderstanding you, and for ranting.

I have a quirk, where I read some things, I have the tendency to read it literally.

Like what you wrote here:



When I read "you" I take it to mean - "me".

I always have problem interpreting what people say, so apparently it is misfire on my part.

Oh no bro. I ment in generally. Not talking bout you personally

 

[Rational_Mind]

Hey Rational, how come all of the thousands of people who memorised the Qu'ran back in the days of Muhammad, didn't memorise 2 verses, the same 2 verses were unknown to all but ONE person. It is therefore not unreasonable to conclude that there are verses that have been ommitted, isn't that so? Or conversely those 2 verses were never part of the original. Do those who memorise the Qu'ran now include those 2 verses?

Search the word khuzaima in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

Read all the Hadith there and it will become quite clear what is going on.
At one end you claim to be an honest person. Is it not important for an honest person to spend ample time and investigate both sides. You should stop using whichever source you used. It picked a terrible argument. It was hard for me to find which two you speak about until I hit a couple of terrible sites. There is a reason why people rarely ever bother to pick errors in compilation etc but rather assert that it is all wrong.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Hey Rational, how come all of the thousands of people who memorised the Qu'ran back in the days of Muhammad, didn't memorise 2 verses, the same 2 verses were unknown to all but ONE person. It is therefore not unreasonable to conclude that there are verses that have been ommitted, isn't that so? Or conversely those 2 verses were never part of the original. Do those who memorise the Qu'ran now include those 2 verses?

Truth shall prevail over Falsehood - no matter how many false/fabricated claims they try to bring. See the response below.

Are The Verses From Surah 9:128-129 And Surah 33:23 Falsely Added To The Quran?

 

[loverOfTruth]

Thaks for the link, still does not answer my question, how can you trust the Koran to be perfect when Allah made mistakes in the other revealed scriptures? and thats without using the Koran as evidence as the Koran is the one in question.

God doesn't make mistake. It's no different than the 'evils' and 'mistakes' we see in the world. People make mistake and commit evil. God revealed the perfect message perfectly without any mistake to Moses(pbuh) and to Jesus(pbuh). However, people didn't take proper care to preserve the message (probably because they weren't meant to be for all of humanity till end of times). So God send the final messenger with the final message and promised to Guard it from any human Corruption so it can last till the end of times (since no more messengers are coming).

The Koran is not structured into chapters in any way, The First Revelation of the god of Koran appears in the 96 Sura (chapter), how perfect would you call a God that declares today that ”today I have perfected your religion for you”(Koran 5:3) but still continues with his revelations tommorow ?
If the God of Koran is an incremental revealer, why should one believe that he perfected his religion in the 7th century arabia?

First of all, 'order' is subjective - everyone has their own style they like. So no matter how much you say this order seems better than the other, you won't go anywhere with that. But even with that I say that the perfect book of God is in fact is in the perfect order (unlike what most humans would come up with).

[Taken from: Concept of time in the Quran]

"the Qur'an does not follow a linear exposition and progressive timeline as, for example, the Bible does. It raises topics, not according to a successive historical progression, but according to its own unique inner pulse and rhythm. If it was in a historical, chronological order like a book of history or a biography, it would have been particularized to the chronology of history. The Qur'an, however, declares itself as timeless, as a book that cannot be particularized and limited to a specific historical context. 'Verily this is no less than a Message to all the Worlds.' (Qur'an 81:27) Jafar al-Sadiq (a.s.) has said of it that '...it will continue on its course as long as Heaven and Earth endure, because it enshrines a sign and a guide for every person and group to come.'

The Qur'an breaks the chronological mould to declare itself free from the ties of time. It originates with God who encompasses time and is not constrained by it. The Book of the Realities of existence which the Qur'an calls 'the Mother of the Book' is on a different plane of existence, outside of the flow of time as we know it. It is from this realm that the Qur'an descended to the Prophet's (s.a.) heart, and from there, degree by degree descended in the form of the specific words recited as the Qur'an. Nasir al-Din Qunawi writes, 'The writing and the form of the letters and sounds originate in time, but what is written and recited is beyond time'.
'And behold, it is with Us in the Mother of the Book, sublime indeed, wise.. (Qur'an 43:3)
"

Now, if you want more details and want to analyze further to see why the first Surah revealed Al-`Alaq is not the first Surah and things like that. Please see : Revelation Order of the Quran

The more you analyze the Qur'an, the more beautiful and perfect it becomes.

Peace.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

loverOfTruth;2851361]God doesn't make mistake. It's no different than the 'evils' and 'mistakes' we see in the world. People make mistake and commit evil. God revealed the perfect message perfectly without any mistake to Moses(pbuh) and to Jesus(pbuh). However, people didn't take proper care to preserve the message (probably because they weren't meant to be for all of humanity till end of times). So God send the final messenger with the final message and promised to Guard it from any human Corruption so it can last till the end of times (since no more messengers are coming).

Why did he not guard it in he vary beginnings, didn't he know it was gonna get corrupt?

First of all, 'order' is subjective - everyone has their own style they like. So no matter how much you say this order seems better than the other, you won't go anywhere with that. But even with that I say that the perfect book of God is in fact is in the perfect order (unlike what most humans would come up with).

I think majority of people will agree of what order is, specially regarding any book.

[Taken from: Concept of time in the Quran]

"the Qur'an does not follow a linear exposition and progressive timeline as, for example, the Bible does. It raises topics, not according to a successive historical progression, but according to its own unique inner pulse and rhythm. If it was in a historical, chronological order like a book of history or a biography, it would have been particularized to the chronology of history. The Qur'an, however, declares itself as timeless, as a book that cannot be particularized and limited to a specific historical context. 'Verily this is no less than a Message to all the Worlds.' (Qur'an 81:27) Jafar al-Sadiq (a.s.) has said of it that '...it will continue on its course as long as Heaven and Earth endure, because it enshrines a sign and a guide for every person and group to come.'

So this is saying there is no history, geography or biography in the Koran?

“And when we said unto the angels, worship Adam, they all worshipped him except Eblis (Satan), who refused, and was puffed up with pride and became of the number of the unbelievers.” 2: 32.)

“We gave Moses the book and the miracles. We said unto them, be ye changed into scouted apes. And we made them an example unto those who were contemporary with them and unto those who came after them, and a warning to the pious.” (2:53.)

“Moreover, to Moses gave we “The Book” and we, raised up apostles after him; and to Jesus, son of Mary, gave we clear proofs of his mission, and strengthened him by the Holy Spirit. So oft then as an apostle cometh to you with that which your souls desire not, swell ye with pride, and treat some as imposters, and slay others.” (2: 81)

So Adma, Eve, satan, Abraham, Moses, Jesus mary are not actual people of any history, geography or have a biography, they don't exist?
What does these words mean in the Koran?

The Qur'an breaks the chronological mould to declare itself free from the ties of time. It originates with God who encompasses time and is not constrained by it. The Book of the Realities of existence which the Qur'an calls 'the Mother of the Book' is on a different plane of existence, outside of the flow of time as we know it. It is from this realm that the Qur'an descended to the Prophet's (s.a.) heart, and from there, degree by degree descended in the form of the specific words recited as the Qur'an. Nasir al-Din Qunawi writes, 'The writing and the form of the letters and sounds originate in time, but what is written and recited is beyond time'.
'And behold, it is with Us in the Mother of the Book, sublime indeed, wise.. (Qur'an 43:3)

Is it not arrogance on the part of God to praise His own book?

The more you analyze the Qur'an, the more beautiful and perfect it becomes.

No exactly, it is just as contradictory and violent as if was before.

 

[fishy]

Search the word khuzaima in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

Read all the Hadith there and it will become quite clear what is going on.
At one end you claim to be an honest person. Is it not important for an honest person to spend ample time and investigate both sides. You should stop using whichever source you used. It picked a terrible argument. It was hard for me to find which two you speak about until I hit a couple of terrible sites. There is a reason why people rarely ever bother to pick errors in compilation etc but rather assert that it is all wrong.

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:
who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):--
"Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128)
The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter.source =http://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/bukhari/060_sbt.html

I assume you will withdraw your scurrilous accusation of my trolling anti-islamic sites in order to produce falsehoods. An apology is also in order.
You see I have seen this very passage produced by Muslims in explanation for the compilation of the Qu'ran and was simply going on memory, ergo why I didn't offer a quote. I was under the misapprehension that it was common knowledge among Muslims. Still I've searched it down, from what I assume to be a reputable site and it confirms word for word what my memory told me.
I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else,
So now instead of calling me a liar answer the questions. I will not offer you the satisfaction of repeating them. Go to the post where you accused me of dishonesty and worse and you will see them.

Truth shall prevail over Falsehood - no matter how many false/fabricated claims they try to bring.

It would seem that this verse, at least on this particular occasion, is profoundly prophetic. I look forward to your apology and your answers.
:thud::thud::thud:

​

 

[gnostic]

You have misunderstood somethings.

No, I haven't...not really.

There are two different words for heaven as in afterlife and heaven as in something above you. I have really simplified it though.

I am well aware that heaven could also mean the abode of God, or the abode for resurrected people, hence the afterlife. I deliberately left that out, because I don't think it was relevant.

As you, Qur'an 51:47 referred to heaven, but the context that I see, relates to the sky. This is confirmed by one translation (Yusuf Ali):

With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

The term FIRMAMENT referred to the sky, and the sky is often poetically referred to (by ancient writers) as the "dome of heaven", "the vault", the "great expanse", etc. All of which points to the sky and Earth's atmospheres, and how we (or the ancient people) view the sky, but standing on the ground.

This is confirmed in Genesis 1:6-8:

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

The Genesis referred to firmament to being the sky and the atmosphere (with winds clouds and rain). God divided the water above (sky/atmosphere) from the water below (seas, oceans). So the Earth and Heaven (sky) was divided.

And when you read the entire Qur'an 51, you will see that Sura speaks of winds, clouds, rains and thunders, everything that happen in our sky (heaven). The chapter/Sura also has Arabic title, which either means "Winnowing Winds" or the "Scatterers".

So do you see why I think that proper context for heaven in this verse (47) - AND IN THIS CHAPTER (51) relates to the sky, and not to God's abode, or deep space or the universe. That's why I didn't mention the "afterlife" or God's abode, because it isn't relevant. Do you see resemblance between the firmament in Genesis 1 and in the Qur'an 51?

Does the Heaven (as in the abode of God and the afterlife for the departed) have cloud, rain, wind and thunder?

Perhaps it is possible for God to create clouds, but in the spirit realm I don't think it is needed, unless you think Heaven is exactly like life on Earth.

And the dividing the sky (heaven) from the Earth wasn't even an original Hebrew idea or Islamic idea. Mesopotamian myths was quite widespread, and their ancient stories/myths spread as far west as Egypt and Anatolian Turkey (the Hittite Empire).

The separation of the Heaven and Earth can be found in the Sumerian poem of Gilgamesh ("Gilgames and the Netherworld"), in the Babylonian Enuma Elish ("Epic of Creation"), and several other poems and epics.

In Egypt, there are various versions of creation, some with the episode of the separation of heaven/earth, like some verses in the Pyramid Texts, the Coffin Texts, a couple of the Book of the Dead, and in the Papyrus Of Nesi-Amsu (particularly the part about Creation).

Do you see my points?