Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?

[loverOfTruth]

The Hafiz, answer the question of the Hafiz. Why was a companion necessary for these verses and every other verse was confirmed, allegedly, by Hafiz.
Why was no other written record recorded as requiring the confirmation of a companion?
Wanna try that?

I seriously have no idea as to what you are talking about. But I'll clarify it for the one last time. This verse was a special case since it was found written with only one person(even with multiple memorization witness) and thus there is a Hadith regarding it and not for every single verse. But the complete compilation of the Qur'an had the necessary witnesses (both written and memory) and then passed down in the book from generations after generations. I have given you the clearest of proof and after all the questions are answered, you are still going in circles trying to find something else and which still wouldn't prove your point as to the 'broken chain' is concerned. Therefore, I am not going to answer any more questions related to this.

 

[fishy]

I seriously have no idea as to what you are talking about. But I'll clarify it for the one last time. This verse was a special case since it was found written with only one person(even with multiple memorization witness) and thus there is a Hadith regarding it and not for every single verse. But the complete compilation of the Qur'an had the necessary witnesses (both written and memory) and then passed down in the book from generations after generations. I have given you the clearest of proof and after all the questions are answered, you are still going in circles trying to find something else and which still wouldn't prove your point as to the 'broken chain' is concerned. Therefore, I am not going to answer any more questions related to this.

Produce the evidence that supports this:
This verse was a special case since it was found written with only one person(even with multiple memorization witness)
Everything presented so far has not supported this information.
This is your thread alleging the 'Truth of the Qu'ran", one of those truths relates to the "unbroken chain". I have used the "proofs" supplied by the Hadiths that such a contention is untenable, I understand that you will never accept this for the simple reason that it would destroy your entire existence.
The truth is that the Hadiths prove upon any objective reading that the unbroken chain is a myth.
But thanks for the discussion, deluded as one side still is.

 

[Agnostic75]

At Cosmology and the Koran: A Response to Muslim Fundamentalists, there is an article about Islam by noted skeptic Bible scholar Dr. Richard Carrier.

 

[Sunstone]

There is absolutely no evidence for the Truth of Islam. None. Nadda. Not a bit.

By the way, what is the Truth of Islam, anyway? I don't know.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Fishy is very fishy. After stupid questions are destroyed by simple logic this person continues to ask more stupid questions. Why does it bother someone who at the very first step does not appear to believe in God. First you need to solve that question before evaluating if Islam is the truth. You would not even need to evaluate this if you don't even believe in God. So your intent is not to look for truth but waste other peoples time and hope they also fall to disbelief like yourself. And your intentions don't even seem clear to yourself. Ask yourself, why are you really here. Why are you so concerned? When I study something I evaluate both sides then ask questions. I don't see these kind of stupid questions from other people of intellect. you have the full right to disbelieve. But you appear to be at such unease. Even more than to whom you raise questions. Your judgment is so blurred in this haste that you don't even think through what comes out of your mind.

 

[PolyHedral]

Why does it bother someone who at the very first step does not appear to believe in God.

I hope you don't think religion exists in isolation, and doesn't have any - in some cases, extremely negative - effect on the external world.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Produce the evidence that supports this:
This verse was a special case since it was found written with only one person(even with multiple memorization witness)
Everything presented so far has not supported this information.
This is your thread alleging the 'Truth of the Qu'ran", one of those truths relates to the "unbroken chain". I have used the "proofs" supplied by the Hadiths that such a contention is untenable, I understand that you will never accept this for the simple reason that it would destroy your entire existence.
The truth is that the Hadiths prove upon any objective reading that the unbroken chain is a myth.
But thanks for the discussion, deluded as one side still is.

All you have provided is some spurious arguments. And in case 'you' didn't understand what I said in my last post, I will repeat it one more time :

"And you are trying to prove by showing that you found only 2 verses (out of 6000+ verses of the entire Qur'an) which may have a 'broken chain' ? Well, first of all, it wouldn't be a broken chain at all since it was found with at least one person tracing back to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) even if you just take the Hadith you quoted. And secondly, I have shown you that that's not the case. "

 

[Rational_Mind]

I hope you don't think religion exists in isolation, and doesn't have any - in some cases, extremely negative - effect on the external world.

Agreed. But it is people taking cover under the name of religion. Moreover it is not just believers who engage in bad conduct. I hope you understand what I mean. This specific issue and how the jumping between topics bothers me. Moreover, I hold the belief that reason can only reach as far as there must be a God. Next stage is looking. That is when you can be convinced there is a God. I am happy to answers questions that show interest in learning. Here I see someone who doesn't know much painting everyone with the same brush. I respect anyone whether he believes or not but if they conduct themselves this way it is a waste of time. I think my fault is partially on supporting the OP when I know this is not how bringing someone to belief works. I just couldn't stand the misinformation going around. There were some very good questions asked but then it derailed. I had initially loved these forums as I saw fair discussions little hate and people looking to learn. But it has been feeling like YouTube comments lately.

 

[loverOfTruth]

At Cosmology and the Koran: A Response to Muslim Fundamentalists, there is an article about Islam by noted skeptic Bible scholar Dr. Richard Carrier.

Again, you came up with a totally unacceptable and worthless article to counter my arguments. Let me explain.

First of all, the title clearly says it is a response to 'Muslim Fundamentalists'. That just shows hate and bias right from the getgo. Who uses that term in an educated and intelligent debate setting - I thought only the right wing nuts. Apparently not. Since I am not a 'muslim fundamentalist', you should go find one of those and argue about it with them. By the way, I don't even think any of those 'fundamentalists' would even care about Scientific facts in the Qur'an ;-).

Secondly, if you did little bit of research about Dr. Richard Carrier, you would find out that he is a Historian (not a Scientist) and an avid advocate of Atheism. Wikipedia and his official website should make that clear. Need I say more ? Do you expect me to take his work against the Qur'an as an unbiased opinion ?

Again, do you see the double standard here ? You wouldn't accept a Scientist's opinion supporting my argument on Scientific issues saying they are biased because they are from the same Abrahamic root(not necessarily same belief, I'll explain that in a moment) and you want me to accept an atheism preaching Historian's opinion on a Scientific matter ? I don't know what else to tell you .... seriously.

Now let me clarify about your issue regarding me providing statements from Scientists who are of Abrahamic Faith. First of all, how do you know the scientists who I gave a list of in a link are of a certain faith ? Just because they are white and from the west ? I don't think either of us are certain of their belief. They could be Christian, they could be Jewish, they could be agnostic, they could be Atheist and yet they could be Buddhist. Right ?

Next point. Now let's say they are in fact either Christian or Jewish(abrahamic faith). It is extremely naive given the current events in the world and the chronology of the faith's existence to think that Christian and Jewish scientists will be biased to side with the Qur'an. The only thing they can openly agree on against the agnostics/atheists is that God exists and things related to that. Again, I hope you are not naive enough to think that all Christian/Jewish scientists will go out of their way to prove that a verse in the Qur'an is in fact divine. Why ? For any Christian or a Jew to accept wholeheartedly that Scientific facts in the Qur'an is indeed from God and a miracle (and since they all essentially believe in the same God) the most logical next step for them is to convert to Islam. Cause if you believe that Qur'an is a miracle from God and you believe in the same God and that Qur'an confirms the messages/messengers(Torah/Moses, Gospel/Jesus) you believe in , why would you still stick with an older version of the book ? Get it ? So under no circumstances most Christians and Jews will be siding with the muslims with a positive bias on this issue. At least not openly, even if they agree with it. So that argument really doesn't make sense.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Why did he not guard it in he vary beginnings, didn't he know it was gonna get corrupt?

So there is no history, geography or biography in the Koran?

“And when we said unto the angels, worship Adam, they all worshipped him except Eblis (Satan), who refused, and was puffed up with pride and became of the number of the unbelievers.” 2: 32.)

“We gave Moses the book and the miracles. We said unto them, be ye changed into scouted apes. And we made them an example unto those who were contemporary with them and unto those who came after them, and a warning to the pious.” (2:53.)

“Moreover, to Moses gave we “The Book” and we, raised up apostles after him; and to Jesus, son of Mary, gave we clear proofs of his mission, and strengthened him by the Holy Spirit. So oft then as an apostle cometh to you with that which your souls desire not, swell ye with pride, and treat some as imposters, and slay others.” (2: 81)

So Adma, Eve, satan, Abraham, Moses, Jesus mary are not actual people of any history, geography or have a biography, they don't exist?
What does these words mean in the Koran?

is it not arrogance on the part of God to praise His own book?

Any one want to answer my questions, im still waiting for the truth loverOfTruth

 

[Daviso452]

All you have provided is some spurious arguments. And in case 'you' didn't understand what I said in my last post, I will repeat it one more time :

"And you are trying to prove by showing that you found only 2 verses (out of 6000+ verses of the entire Qur'an) which may have a 'broken chain' ? Well, first of all, it wouldn't be a broken chain at all since it was found with at least one person tracing back to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) even if you just take the Hadith you quoted. And secondly, I have shown you that that's not the case. "

Still awaiting my answer.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Why did he not guard it in he vary beginnings, didn't he know it was gonna get corrupt?

Let me emphasize first that this is not a discussion about proving existence of God. Having said that, anyone who believes in an All Knowing, All Powerful God knows that there's nothing that God doesn't know or there's nothing that God cannot do. So just like in some situations God lets evil to happen by giving people free will, and just like God protects people from evil in other situations - so such is the corruption of previous messages and protection of the last message.

I think majority of people will agree of what order is, specially regarding any book.

Thank You - my point exactly. This whole discussion is about demonstrating that the Qur'an is unlike 'any book'

So this is saying there is no history, geography or biography in the Koran?

“And when we said unto the angels, worship Adam, they all worshipped him except Eblis (Satan), who refused, and was puffed up with pride and became of the number of the unbelievers.” 2: 32.)

“We gave Moses the book and the miracles. We said unto them, be ye changed into scouted apes. And we made them an example unto those who were contemporary with them and unto those who came after them, and a warning to the pious.” (2:53.)

“Moreover, to Moses gave we “The Book” and we, raised up apostles after him; and to Jesus, son of Mary, gave we clear proofs of his mission, and strengthened him by the Holy Spirit. So oft then as an apostle cometh to you with that which your souls desire not, swell ye with pride, and treat some as imposters, and slay others.” (2: 81)

So Adma, Eve, satan, Abraham, Moses, Jesus mary are not actual people of any history, geography or have a biography, they don't exist?
What does these words mean in the Koran?

Again for the last time(hopefully), Qur'an is not a book of Science, neither it is a book of History, nor it is a book of Geology etc. It is a book of Guidance with Signs for people to reflect. And as part of the 'Signs', it contains information about Science, History, Geology, Nature and what not. So to reiterate, it does talk about all those items you have mentioned but it is not a book of History. Again, it is unlike any other book - you really have to think outside the box here.

Is it not arrogance on the part of God to praise His own book?

Your concept of God might be very tiny - that's why you need to think outside the box to imagine who's arrogant. Think about your arrogance first. Just look at your human body and see how it functions so perfectly and think about how just a simple thing like high fever/cold can ruin your life and all the million other things that God gave you and you didn't thank him For. See if you can even list them all.

No exactly, it is just as contradictory and violent as if was before.

I am sorry, I forgot that 'the beauty is in the eye of the beholder'.

 

[PolyHedral]

Agreed. But it is people taking cover under the name of religion.

Not in the case of "honour killings" and such like. Those are directly sanctioned by the religion.

Moreover it is not just believers who engage in bad conduct. I hope you understand what I mean.

People do bad things for reasons. The reasons are, by extension, things that should be changed and/or removed. One of those reasons happens to be religious beliefs.

Moreover, I hold the belief that reason can only reach as far as there must be a God.

Pure reason tells you no such thing. In fact, it points vaguely in the opposite direction.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Not in the case of "honour killings" and such like. Those are directly sanctioned by the religion.

People do bad things for reasons. The reasons are, by extension, things that should be changed and/or removed. One of those reasons happens to be religious beliefs.

Pure reason tells you no such thing. In fact, it points vaguely in the opposite direction.

How do you reason the world would be a better place? Without belief in God?

Please explain what you mean by saying honour killings are sanctioned by religion. If someone does something and states that their religion sanctions such. Does that count? How do you evaluate what is to be blamed.

 

[Agnostic75]

If any Muslim writings state, or imply, that homosexuals should be imprisoned or put to death, such as happens in Islamic republics, in my opinion, if a God exists, he did not inspire those writings, and such treatment of homosexuals is barbaric. How would that be any different from a certain group of religious non-Muslims claiming that God approves of killing Muslims simply because they chose to be Muslims?

People's sexual lives are their own personal business, not the business of any church.
Homosexuality is widespread among over 1500 species of animals and birds. This suggests that homosexuality is natural, not unnatural as some religious conservatives claim. Why would a God oppose homosexuality among humans, or other animals?

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

loverOfTruth;2853991]Let me emphasize first that this is not a discussion about proving existence of God. Having said that, anyone who believes in an All Knowing, All Powerful God knows that there's nothing that God doesn't know or there's nothing that God cannot do. So just like in some situations God lets evil to happen by giving people free will, and just like God protects people from evil in other situations - so such is the corruption of previous messages and protection of the last message.

So what your saying is Allah was the cause of corruption of his own previous message?
How do you know that the Koran is not corrupt right now?

Thank You - my point exactly. This whole discussion is about demonstrating that the Qur'an is unlike 'any book'

So if i say to you that there is not any book like the Bhagvad Gita, no one can produce a book such as the Bhagvad Gita.
The Bhagvad Gita is unlike any book ever written, why should i expect you to agree to this?

No two books are alike, unless they are copied.

Again for the last time(hopefully), Qur'an is not a book of Science, neither it is a book of History, nor it is a book of Geology etc. It is a book of Guidance with Signs for people to reflect. And as part of the 'Signs', it contains information about Science, History, Geology, Nature and what not. So to reiterate, it does talk about all those items you have mentioned but it is not a book of History. Again, it is unlike any other book - you really have to think outside the box here.

Any book will have "signs" of science, geography, history ect, nothing special about Koran, and please answer the question, are the said people Adam, Abraham ect historical or not?

If not historical what are they "Signs" of in the Koran.

If they are Historical then the Koran contains history, like ive been saying.

Your concept of God might be very tiny - that's why you need to think outside the box to imagine who's arrogant. Think about your arrogance first. Just look at your human body and see how it functions so perfectly and think about how just a simple thing like high fever/cold can ruin your life and all the million other things that God gave you and you didn't thank him For. See if you can even list them all.

sorry that i seem arrogant to you, its just the more deeper i dig to find the truth and ask questions the more arrogant answers i get.

My concept of "GOD", is that its not arrogant or self centred.

And can you answer the question please, is Allah Arrogant in praising his own Book.

I am sorry, I forgot that 'the beauty is in the eye of the beholder'.

Yes as to one its beautiful, to another its ugly.

 

[loverOfTruth]

If any Muslim writings state, or imply, that homosexuals should be imprisoned or put to death, such as happens in Islamic republics, in my opinion, if a God exists, he did not inspire those writings, and such treatment of homosexuals is barbaric. How would that be any different from a certain group of religious non-Muslims claiming that God approves of killing Muslims simply because they chose to be Muslims?

People's sexual lives are their own personal business, not the business of any church.
Homosexuality is widespread among over 1500 species of animals and birds. This suggests that homosexuality is natural, not unnatural as some religious conservatives claim. Why would a God oppose homosexuality among humans, or other animals?

We are not discussing rules, rituals, permissibles and forbiddens in Islam here. Those things come after you believe that the God of Islam is the True God, the messenger of Islam is the true Messenger and that the book of Islam is the preserved divine message as revealed to the Prophet.

However, I'll still add the following. If a Muslim does something wrong, does not mean that Islam supports/condones that. Sometimes politics or regulations in the muslim countries may not have anything to do with Islam and may be based on the culture/tradition/ruler's personal gain/interest. Not to mention the misunderstanding/misinterpretation of the message. So do not mix those up.

 

[Rational_Mind]

If any Muslim writings state, or imply, that homosexuals should be imprisoned or put to death, such as happens in Islamic republics, in my opinion, if a God exists, he did not inspire those writings, and such treatment of homosexuals is barbaric. How would that be any different from a certain group of religious non-Muslims claiming that God approves of killing Muslims simply because they chose to be Muslims?

People's sexual lives are their own personal business, not the business of any church.
Homosexuality is widespread among over 1500 species of animals and birds. This suggests that homosexuality is natural, not unnatural as some religious conservatives claim. Why would a God oppose homosexuality among humans, or other animals?

I do not consider a writing to be Islamic if the person writing is simply states it is Islamic. It has to have a firm basis in Quran and secondary the Hadith. I have yet to see a Muslim who believes homosexuals should be killed justify it appropriately. Such a strong punishment cannot possibly be missed in the Quran. It is true that Islam does not support homosexuality and does condemn it. It does take it very seriously and has ruling on how to deal with it, but I would rather not comment much on it until I have a complete understanding of what circumstances etc etc. But I am clearly aware that the death penalty is twisted from the Mosaic Law for adultery showing up in the Hadith that was abolished and Quran prescribes a different punishment. I do not take the label of a country or even a so called scholar on what is Islamic. It has to be carefully evaluated. Moreover I hope you can put a better argument than the animals statement. There are a lot of other things that animals do but that does not mean a more conscious and intelligent being should do the same. I should not comment further as I do not remember details much past this yet. I still have to study this issue further myself.

 

[gnostic]

I still see no scientific fact about the Qur'an, as loveroftruth indicated in the OP.

Scientific Facts in the Qur'an - proves #2 above

What does science have to do with the Qur'an?

Does the Qur'an contain science or scientific knowledge? No.

 

[loverOfTruth]

So what your saying is Allah was the cause of corruption of his own previous message?
How do you know that the Koran is not corrupt right now?

If you don't know the difference between 'God Knowing it' and 'God Causing it' - I don't know what to tell you.

So if i say to you that there is not any book like the Bhagvad Gita, no one can produce a book such as the Bhagvad Gita.
The Bhagvad Gita is unlike any book ever written, why should i expect you to agree to this?

No two books are alike, unless they are copied.

It's not only about being different from other books. It transcends anything human like and what else ? That's what we have been discussing throughout the thread. Please go back and read it all. I can't repeat myself anymore.

Any book will have "signs" of science, geography, history ect, nothing special about Koran, and please answer the question, are the said people Adam, Abraham ect historical or not?

If not historical what are they "Signs" of in the Koran.

I already stated it - read it again ("And as part of the 'Signs', it contains information about Science, History"). Some of the signs are historical while others of various other kinds as I have stated, for example, Scientific and so many more categories. So you can't call it a History book.